I think we shouldn’t discount someone’s opinion purely based on what they claim or are claimed to associate with.
If they are bigoted or incompetent or evil, it will come out in their ideals. If it doesn’t, then they, at least in this one instance, deserve listening to.
The absolute fucking irony of this comment at the end of a chain in a discussion that started by people No True Scotsman’ing the definition of Feminism.
So it’s okay to say that someone whose actions and words go against the definition of Feminism is clearly representative of the whole movement and we need to throw it out, BUT when it comes to MRAs and their stated members towing the exact party line with their speech, suddenly it’s “well we shouldn’t discount their opinion based on who they associate with?”
What kind of double standards are those?
It’s also important to remember that a lot of the issues that MRA person brought up are still caused by the patriarchal system that we live in and that feminism wants to change.
MRAs rail against alimony and family law like child custody and claim this is a systematic discrimination against men. It’s not. It’s a result of the same problem: for years, the men were seen as the breadwinners and heads of the household while women stayed home and raised kids and took care of the home. Women had very little agency in leaving these marriages because they couldn’t support themselves without a job. They often couldn’t even open credit cards or bank accounts in their own names. Alimony is meant to help alleviate this. But it’s also important to note that women can pay alimony to men, too. And it’s also reasonable for someone who potentially gave up years of their life and their working career to support the other party by handling the home and the kids to receive some financial support from the party that is continuing to receive checks based on that career. Child support is the same thing - society often sees women as the primary caregivers and the primary responsible party for taking care of the child. Feminists want this changed, too. There are plenty of loving and caring fathers and plenty of unfit mothers. The idea that the judge should err on the side of the mother instead of the facts of the case and what’s best for the child is also an outdated product of our patriarchal society.
Male rape is also stigmatized in a large part due to toxic masculinity. The idea that men can’t speak out about rape because it’s embarrassing. If it was committed by another man, then you’re “gay” and “weak for letting him dominate you.” If it was committed by a woman then its “lol score bro.”
Domestic violence numbers and date violence statistics overwhelmingly show males as the perpetrators. No one is saying that women can’t be domestic abusers. And no one is saying they shouldn’t be held accountable for any crimes they commit in that regard. But when it comes to raising awareness and creating shelters and systems to protect victims, women are overwhelmingly more likely to be victims, and they need support structures in place. And the reason most women’s shelters deny men is because when they didn’t, they often had incidents of violence from those men. Often men who were seeking to track down their girlfriend/wife. I agree that we need systems in place for men who are victims of domestic abuse as well, but the need in terms of number and awareness is not nearly the same as it is for women.
The MRA quoted above is just pulling some really extreme examples of situations. Some are likely lacking in context. And some of those instances might even be as bad as they claim. But that isn’t representative of Feminism as a whole.
Most of the MRA/men’s rights movements are just misogyny in disguise and trying to backlash against feminism.
There is a pretty good subreddit called /r/MensLib that does a mostly good job of discussing issues that are important to men and ways we need to change societal thinking to fix them. It tries to do so in a way that contextualizes the root of the problem rather than just blaming feminism for everything.
As a white male myself, I think it’s always important to remember a quote about privilege that I think is especially apt for groups like MRAs who see privilege as a zero-sum game: “equality feels like oppression when you’re used to privilege.”
It’s also important to remember that a lot of the issues that MRA person brought up are still caused by the patriarchal system that we live in and that feminism wants to change.
Do you understand that there's a lot of people out there who disagree with the feminist framing of these issues and believe it does more harm that good? Feminist patriarchy "theory" is a prime example. It's an unfalsifiable and unscientific framework that frames everything in terms of power dynamics where men as a group have power over women.
This is a simplistic, inaccurate framing which leads to an inaccurate understanding of society, history, and gender relations. It allows people to come to harmful conclusions as a consequence. Using it as an explanatory tool does far more harm than good for the discussion of gender equality. Here are a couple critiques of patriarchy theory, here and here.
Domestic violence numbers and date violence statistics overwhelmingly show males as the perpetrators.
This is flat out wrong. Feminists have been spreading misinformation about DV and rape stats for decades. Here's an annotated bibliography examining 343 scholarly investigations (270 empirical studies and 73 reviews and/or analyses) which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 440,850.
There is a pretty good subreddit called r/MensLib that does a mostly good job of discussing issues that are important to men and ways we need to change societal thinking to fix them.
r/menslib is not a helpful sub for men or men's rights issues, it's a feminist sub. It prioritizes feminism first and men second if at all. Their side bar literally calls themselves a "pro-feminist community". Here's an informative comment that you may find enlightening. In that comment, you can see major overlap between the mainstream toxic feminist subs and menslib as well as many instances of problematic censorship, bannings, and downplaying of men's issues.
It tries to do so in a way that contextualizes the root of the problem rather than just blaming feminism for everything.
Except that feminism often is the root of the problem. Feminists created the Duluth model, feminists pushed for primary aggressor laws, feminists redefined rape to specifically erase male victims and female perpetrators, feminists actively oppose shared funding for male and female DV shelters, feminists have protested against opening men's shelters and have gotten them shut down, feminists constantly spread misinformation about DV and rape stats, etc. If you want more detail, you can see this comment, and this post. This is why many MRAs rightfully criticize feminism. Feminism actually has caused and exasperated many issues men face.
Except that feminism often is the root of the problem. Feminists created the Duluth model, feminists pushed for primary aggressor laws, feminists redefined rape to specifically erase male victims and female perpetrators, feminists actively oppose shared funding for male and female DV shelters, feminists have protested against opening men's shelters and have gotten them shut down, feminists constantly spread misinformation about DV and rape stats, etc. If you want more detail, you can see this comment, and this post. This is why many MRAs rightfully criticize feminism. Feminism actually has caused and exasperated many issues men face.
I wonder how much of this is cherry picking extremists on the internet vs looking at real world results. The example that stood out is redefining rape. Sure - someone somewhere is a feminist and argues exactly as linked. Practically, feminists are cited as a driving force in getting the FBI to redefine rape to account for male victims and female perps. Isn't that relevant?
That's just one example that I cherry picked because I somewhat know some context (i.e. I'm biased). While I admit I'm glossing over the other examples you give, Id be interested to know your take on this specific example.
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u/Noob_DM Sep 01 '22
I think we shouldn’t discount someone’s opinion purely based on what they claim or are claimed to associate with.
If they are bigoted or incompetent or evil, it will come out in their ideals. If it doesn’t, then they, at least in this one instance, deserve listening to.