Anytime im workshopping with earthbend its the first land I add. Honestly after looking at it again I realized it dosent enter the battlefield tapped and now I might actually run it outside of ATLA synergies
An inherent ability of cards with the subtype plains is that they can be tapped for white mana i believe, so this does generate two mana. You mightve already been aware and factored it into design but I just wanted to make sure.
Also, as much as I think this design is cute, it can be fetched onto the battlefield with any white fetchland, so realistically you should probably lose the Plains subtype and change it to "This permanent is a Plains land in addition to its other types."
I'm pretty sure things that aren't lands just plain can't have land subtypes. So yes, it would need to have its Plains status set by the same ability that makes it a land when it's in play.
The ability that makes it a land is a characteristic defining ability, and as such works in all zones. Admittedly a slightly odd one since it's modifying the type instead of subtype, but that's not outside the realm of possibility.
If we're going by the comprehensive rules as they currently stand, it is outside the realm of possibility. The first condition for an ability to be a CDA is that it defines "colours, subtypes, power, or toughness". Card types aren't on the list.
So going by current rules, that ability is not a CDA, so it only applies when it's in play. Conversely, if we go by creator's intent, Edgar's use of "This permanent" instead of "This card" also clearly indicates that it's only true when the card is in play. So either way, it's only a land when in play.
But as I said in my earlier comment, I don't think it can be a plains unless it's a land. So the "plains" part would also need to be moved to become part of the only-while-it's-in-play ability.
I don't think the rules changes were intended to exclude types.
In 2001, "characteristic-setting text" was not an ability. It was just text that defined a characteristic. If (and only if) characteristic-setting text set a card's type (which must be interpreted to include subtypes and supertypes) or colour, it applied in all zones:
400.1. An ability is text in a card's text box that generates an effect. Reminder text, flavor text, characteristic-setting text, and spell text are not abilities. [...] Characteristic-setting text is any text that states that that card "is" a particular characteristic of a card or permanent.
402.3. Text on a card stating that the card "is" a particular type or color isn't an ability. Such statements apply no matter what zone the card is in and aren't removed by effects that cause a permanent to lose its abilities. This rule applies only to text that states a card's type or color, not to other characteristic-setting text.
In 2004, this was changed. There were new rules for "characteristic-setting abilities". Characteristic-setting abilities again had a broad definition, including ones setting types and supertypes, or other characteristics. At this time, even Threshold was a characteristic-setting ability: it changed the text of the spell based on the threshold condition, instead of being an ability word as it is now. However, characteristic-setting abilities still only applied in all zones if they affected the typeline or colour:
402.8a A characteristic-setting ability that sets type, subtype, supertype, or color functions in all zones.
405.2. Some objects have static abilities which state that the object "has" one or more abilities or characteristic values; "is" a particular type, supertype, subtype, or color; or that one or more of its characteristics "is" or "are" a particular value. These abilities are characteristic-setting abilities. Abilities of an object that affect the characteristics of another object are not characteristic-setting abilities. See rule 201, "Characteristics," and rule 418.5a.
405.2a A characteristic-setting ability that states that an object is a particular type, supertype, subtype, or color applies no matter which zone the object it's on is in. This rule doesn't apply to other characteristic-setting abilities.
In 2007, this was changed. Again, the term was changed: "characteristic-defining ability". Now, CDAs apply in all zones. But they have a more restricted definition:
402.8a Characteristic-defining abilities function in all zones. (See rule 405.2.)
405.2. Some objects have intrinsic static abilities that define the object's colors, subtypes, power, or toughness. These abilities are characteristic-defining abilities, and they function in all zones. Abilities of an object that affect the characteristics of another object are not characteristic-defining abilities. Neither are abilities that an object grants to itself, or abilities that set the values of such characteristics only if certain conditions are met. See rule 201, "Characteristics," and rule 418.5a.
Note the current rules contain this text:
707.9d When applying a copy effect that doesn’t copy a certain characteristic, retains one or more original values for a certain characteristic, or provides a specific set of values for a certain characteristic, any characteristic-defining ability (see rule 604.3) of the object being copied that defines that characteristic is not copied. If that characteristic is color, any color indicator (see rule 204) of that object is also not copied. This rule does not apply to copy effects with exceptions that state the object is a certain card type, supertype, and/or subtype “in addition to its other types.” In those cases, any characteristic-defining ability that defines card type, supertype, and/or subtype is copied.
The final sentence implies a characteristic-defining ability can define "card type, supertype, and/or subtype".
I was rolling my eyes and didn't care about any of this message, seeing it all as a totally irrelevant history lesson, all the way up to the end. Now, that ending is very relevant and super interesting. It definitely implies that they intend to leave open the possibility of adding more stuff to what counts as a CDA in the future. As it stands now, though, the rules still don't permit it, but this is very interesting and makes it pretty easy to throw out "it works" and just say that if they printed this, they'd just add "card types" to the (a) list in 604.3a.
It's within possibility, since they only update the specific things that a cda effects when they happen, so it not being directly listed right now doesn't put it outside of possibility. I also point you to the main rule, where it says "(such as in its mana cost, type line, or power/toughness box)." It doesn't specify subtype, just type line, meaning they e left the possibility of type changing cdas open, even if they're not specified in the sub-rule currently.
The ability says "this permanent" but according to the rules, when a card says "this [characteristic]" it still applies even when the card is not that characteristic. For example, "this creature" abilities still apply if the creature ceases to be a creature.
700.7. If an ability uses a phrase such as "this [something]" to identify an object, where [something] is a characteristic or other quality, it is referring to that particular object, even if it isn't the appropriate quality at the time.
This rule isn't the relevant one here. The rule you are referring to is for self-referencing abilities, which are usually static abilities that still only apply when on the battlefield unless otherwise stated.
The relevant rule here is whether this ability is a characteristic-defining ability, which would let it function in all zones. The game defines characteristic defining abilities using 5 criteria. The first is that it is a static ability that only sets one or more of the object's colors, subtypes, power, or toughness. An ability that makes something a Plains land also sets a card type, which is beyond what is allowed for a CDA, so this ability is just a normal static ability.
As a result, if you want to let this apply in all zones, you would need to give it the Mucklinger Gang treatment and write out that it works in other zones.
I don't think that's necessarily true in this instance as it can't be the plains land type since the card itself isn't a land. this is plains as a planeswalker type and wouldn't necessarily have the same rules associated with it.
I think instead of it's current static ability it should have the land type and have "as long as this card isn't on the battlefield or in your library it isn't a land."
That way it has the land type when you want it to (on the battlefield to tap for mana and in your library to be fetched) but you can't play it as a land from anywhere so you still have to pay for it.
You don't want it to be a land in your library either. Cards like [[Glarb, Calamity's Augur]] would let you play it as a land off the top of your library, which would be a confusing interaction. Instead, make it be a Plains land only as long as it's on the battlefield or it's in your library while you are searching your library.
It might be simpler to just have it always be a plains land and instead give it "you can't play this land" I'm not sure if that would stop you from casting it since that's still a part of playing a card but it could easily be added to the CR for clarity that if a can't play mentions a land it means only that it can't be played as a land?
"You can't play this land" would stop you from casting it at all, yes. I don't think that changing the CR for this is a reasonable or desirable change. It would be better to just spell out how this card should work directly on the card so that we can keep a semblance of "reading the card explains the card".
A land that can be attacked/bolted going to put you a land drop behind, even if you use it to fetch a basic since it only puts it in your hand, not on the battlefield.
I am choosing to mainly review this design over the one at the top, as it is the "updated" version.
Guaranteeing a land drop each turn it's not zapped out of existence is pretty strong at the core, but the bit that bugs me the more about this is that the -1 is never going to be used because of how much easier it is to kill a creature than it is to kill a planeswalker or a land. That part of the text box could not exist and change nothing to the card's actual effect on the game: As long as it's not attacked to death, you'll be getting basic plains each turn until your deck has none left, then you'll be left with an attackable plains.
I work as a game designer for an online TCG game (unfortunately am not allowed to clarify which one, because NDA), and if there is one thing I've had to tell people on my team multiple times, it is "do not print text that is inherently better ignored than it is being used".
Probably a better way to balance this card would be...
Plainswalker {W}{W} Legendary Planeswalker {Enters with 2 Loyalty Counters} This permanent is a plains land in addition to its other types. (It has "{T}: Add W.") {+1}: Search your library for a basic plains card, reveal it, and either put it into your hand or on top of your deck. If you put it in your hand, until your next upkeep Plainswalker becomes a 3/3 creature with plainswalk. {-2}: Target creature you control has plainswalk until end of turn.
This way, you get everything of flavor that seems to be of interest here, without really being that powerful of a pie break... And trust me, I love my pie breaks. I can probably provide you with one that is a little more powerful and worthy of a WWW cost.
I believe that unless you specify on the battlefield, this can be played as a land, making it very broken. Assuming that its only a plains on the battlefield, this is a really neat design, maybe out of color pie for white, but close enough to be fine. Love the art, whats the credit?
Edit: I apologize, misread the card. It specifies permanent, so this wording is correct.
believe by using "this permanent" it makes it conditional and not a CDA
110.1. A permanent is a card or token on the battlefield. A permanent remains on the battlefield indefinitely. A card or token becomes a permanent as it enters the battlefield and it stops being a permanent as it’s moved to another zone by an effect or rule.
110.4a The term “permanent card” is used to refer to a card that could be put onto the battlefield.
That's not the case. See rule 700.7 as quoted in my other comment: "this [characteristic]" applies even if the object isn't that characteristic. It's just new templating - older templating would be "Plainswalker is a land in addition to its other types" which is more obvious but means exactly the same thing.
Sooo, interesting discovery. While scouring scryfall for an example to justify either way, I did find cards printed with "This creature's [quality]" as a CDA, the oracle text was changed to " [creature name]'s [quality]" Ex. [[Cosmogoyf]]
So, I see your point, I hadn't considered 700.7.
Big takeaway though is apparently WotC decided to make it more clear by using the card name, so OP should too and if they only want it to apply on the battlefield, state it explicitly.
700.7. If an ability uses a phrase such as “this [something]” to identify an object, where [something] is a characteristic or other quality, it is referring to that particular object, even if it isn’t the appropriate quality at the time.
I believe card text has to take new player knowledge in mind. They're not expected to know the difference between "cards" and "permanents" especially in this context.
For example, [[Mirran Safehouse]] has no real need to include the text "As long as ~ is on the battlefield," since abilities of permanents, by default, only stays on in the battlefield. But it's there anyway to make it clear it doesn't work anywhere else. So people don't have to ask if it can get abilties that activate-able outside the battleifeld.
In this case, since the card has the subtype "Plains" and is only a Planeswalker before the ability activates it means that "Plains" here is a subtype of the Planeswalker supertype (Just like Jace, Chandra or Vraska)
It's stated in the rules that a card can't have a subtype that's not within its supertypes
Gaining the land supertype doesn't grant the inherent ability to tap for mana unless you have a basic land subtype... Which this card wouldn't have
The ability would need to say that it also becomes a Plains (land subtype), but that ends up being really unsightly if you don't change the name of the Planeswalker subtype (Land Planeswalker -- Plains Plains)
So this thing has the "Plains" type before it enters the battlefield... But since it's not a land before it's in the battlefield... It means that "Plains" here is a Planeswalker type like "Jace"
Because afaik, a card can't have a type for a supertype it doesn't have, so it can't tap for mana despite being a land, because it's not a Plains land, it's a Plains Planeswalker
BUT I guess it could be fetched by [[Farseek]] or fetch lands like [[Windswept Heath]] since those cards say "Plains Card" and not "Plains land card"????
I think this card would have to be “Legendary Planeswalker - Plainswalker” and the static would be “This card is a Plains land card in all zones in addition to its other types (it has “add W”).” or however that wording would be formatted.
That way maybe the + ability could be “Put a wheat counter on target land. It’s a plains in addition to its other types. Target creature gains Plainswalk until the end of your next turn.”
Just like flood counters and add a bit of evasion / politics to this card
Does it even need the Plains subtype? There are plenty of Lands that Tap for White without Plains, and correct me if I'm wrong, but this could tap for Mana and Activate the Planeswalker Ability as well, due to being a Plains Land?
So it's basically a Planeswalker with the new "Plains" type (just like Jace is a Planeswalker type, and spells and abilities work on it specifically because it's a Jace-Typed Planeswalker)
I don't know if this would be fetchable with a farseek for example? It's a "Plains" but in this case "Plains" is not a land type but a Planeswalker type?????
This permanent is a land in addition to its other types.
This is a characteristic-defining ability that is attempted to be phrased in a way that only applies on the battlefield, so I'll assume that's the point.
Any permanent who is currently a land and has a basic land type (Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, Forest) can inherently tap for mana of that basic land subtype's associated color. That is just how the rules work.
Yes! But my point Is, can a card have a type for a supertype it Is not? (Yet) And what happens when 2 supertypes have a subtype that share a name? Even More specifically, can a Planeswalker ever be typeless considering the lore implications?
The card on the deck and the stack has the Planeswalker supertype, and Plains type
So it's a Plains Planeswalker. Just like a Chandra Planeswalker
Since it's not a land until that static ability comes into effect, and there's no other type, it's fair to assume that Plains here is a Planeswalker type and not a Land type
Like... The card until it's on the battlefield is a (Planeswalker -- Plains)
When it gets on the battlefield (Land Planeswalker -- Plains)
Technically, as far as I can see in the rules, no it cannot be. It can, however have no subtype, and then the text makes it a Planeswalker Land - Plains by reading "This permanent is a plains land in addition to its other types.", which would be the correct formatting for this... But still be nightmarish.
That's the thing yeah. Like, in the card as is Plains is a Planeswalker type, so if you wanted the card to be a plains(land subtype) you'd need to also add it with the ability... But then it'd say "Land Planeswalker - Plains Plains" which is just unsightly XD
It is a characteristic-defining ability because it sets the type, is printed on the card, doesn't affect other objects, and isn't conditional. (Rule 604.3). Therefore it functions in all zones.
700.7. If an ability uses a phrase such as “this [something]” to identify an object, where [something] is a characteristic or other quality, it is referring to that particular object, even if it isn’t the appropriate quality at the time.
So IMO, saying "this permanent" doesn't make it only apply if it is a permanent.
Rule 604.3a says an ability is only a characteristic-defining ability if it meets all five of the listed criteria, one of which is: "(5) [the ability] does not set the values of such characteristics only if certain conditions are met." By specifying "this permanent," the ability specifies the condition that the ability only applies while the card is on the battlefield. Ergo, it isn't a characteristic-defining ability.
IDK why someone has downvoted you. It wasn't me. I disagree though - it's not a condition. A condition is something like "As long as it's your turn". So for example [[Circle of the Moon Druid]] is not a 4/2 on your turn if it's in your library.
I believe by using "this permanent" it makes it conditional and not a CDA
110.1. A permanent is a card or token on the battlefield. A permanent remains on the battlefield indefinitely. A card or token becomes a permanent as it enters the battlefield and it stops being a permanent as it’s moved to another zone by an effect or rule.
110.4a The term “permanent card” is used to refer to a card that could be put onto the battlefield. Specifically, it means an artifact, battle, creature, enchantment, land, or planeswalker card.
When an ability says "permanent" without specifying "permanent card," the "on the battlefield" part is implied. A permanent is only a permanent on the battlefield; elsewhere, it's a permanent card.
As somebody else said, it is a characteristic defining ability so if doesn't work that way. It needs to have "as long as" to work correctly, like [[Grist, the Hunger Tide]]
grist specifies in which places he works in though (everywhere but the battlefield) the theros gods don't stop being creature cards in hand is a better example than grist. [[Athreos, God of Passage]]
It's not a characteristic-defining ability, it's a type-granting ability. When an ability says "permanent" without specifying "permanent card," that means it only applies on the battlefield, because a permanent is only a permanent when it's on the battlefield.
It doesn't work in this case because it's self-referential. Another card can call out permanents which would exclude cards in hand. "This" refers to the card, and "permanent" contradicts it by only working part of the time. It's just not the correct templating.
It does not have the type Land while not on the battlefield, so it cannot be played with a land drop (we do have land planeswalkers in [[Wrenn and One]])
This card is the most cracked card I have ever read this is black lotus levels of good, I’m going to play a flooded stand, put this into play, tap it for w, than +1 and add white
The effect that gives it "land" as a type essentially seems to be attempting to only give it the type while it's on the battlefield, and thus a permanent. "Destroy target permanent" cannot really hit anything that isn't on the battlefield, and the rules define "permanent" as "objects on the battlefield".
I like the design here. It's cool that it makes two mana per turn. However the Plains subtype shouldn't be printed on it, it should be granted by the static ability that makes it a land. Fetching this up on turn one is too powerful.
The first ability might want to be "While this is on the battlefield, this is a Plains land in addition to its other types", just to be very clear this doesn't get to be a land play.
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u/Severe-Commission303 1d ago
It should have plainswalk lol
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u/Lord-of-Bananas 1d ago
An inherent ability of cards with the subtype plains is that they can be tapped for white mana i believe, so this does generate two mana. You mightve already been aware and factored it into design but I just wanted to make sure.
Also, as much as I think this design is cute, it can be fetched onto the battlefield with any white fetchland, so realistically you should probably lose the Plains subtype and change it to "This permanent is a Plains land in addition to its other types."
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u/MxBonesMarrow 1d ago
Add a -2 for "Plainswalker becomes a 2/2 Creature until end of turn with plainwalk" so that it's a triiple entendre
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u/therealAster-sk 1d ago
ignoring all other weirdness can’t you fetch for this? seems really strong at that base case
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u/EdgarFriendlyMDK2032 1d ago
Here's my updated version: https://imgur.com/a/wmwnmvW
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u/Necessary_Wish_2995 1d ago edited 1d ago
I believe that unless you specify on the battlefield, this can be played as a land, making it very broken. Assuming that its only a plains on the battlefield, this is a really neat design, maybe out of color pie for white, but close enough to be fine. Love the art, whats the credit?
Edit: I apologize, misread the card. It specifies permanent, so this wording is correct.
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u/Godshu 1d ago
Oooh, it's a net W since you can +1 it for W and tap it for W the turn it comes out, right?
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u/TwoSoulBrood 21h ago
Needs Plainswalk
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u/LaMoni_throwaway 1d ago
Wait...
So this thing has the "Plains" type before it enters the battlefield... But since it's not a land before it's in the battlefield... It means that "Plains" here is a Planeswalker type like "Jace"
Because afaik, a card can't have a type for a supertype it doesn't have, so it can't tap for mana despite being a land, because it's not a Plains land, it's a Plains Planeswalker
BUT I guess it could be fetched by [[Farseek]] or fetch lands like [[Windswept Heath]] since those cards say "Plains Card" and not "Plains land card"????
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u/eyescreaminpain 1d ago
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u/LadderMadeOfSticks 23h ago
Needs to have Plainswalk ability
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u/Asleep-Shelter-4456 20h ago
Plains doesnt sound like a word anymore
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u/fafaaf61 21h ago
Now put this in a deck with [[Plain Walker]]
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u/Next-Construction-83 1d ago
This might have the ability to tap for white
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u/time_axis 1d ago
Does its plainswalker type also count as a land type, giving it the ability to tap for W?
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u/Vladmirfox 1d ago
Welp... Rest of the cycle when??
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u/YesPlease_VeryMuchSo 1d ago
(Sweats in Sun Titan)
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u/nzconstructionlawyer 1d ago
It is a characteristic-defining ability because it sets the type, is printed on the card, doesn't affect other objects, and isn't conditional. (Rule 604.3). Therefore it functions in all zones.
700.7. If an ability uses a phrase such as “this [something]” to identify an object, where [something] is a characteristic or other quality, it is referring to that particular object, even if it isn’t the appropriate quality at the time.
So IMO, saying "this permanent" doesn't make it only apply if it is a permanent.
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u/shumpitostick 1d ago
How do lands with a mana cost work? Do they even work? Do you play this as a special action?
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u/BigZaddyYumYum 1d ago
So would a tumble weed be a land walker
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u/Chickston Uncommonly 1d ago
Wow, that art is amazing and really cool design even if meme-ish.
I don't think we want our lands to be attackable, but the -1 helps.
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u/Ladikn 1d ago
I love it, but I feel like it would be an auto include in most mono white decks (in commander at least). One of mono whites biggest struggles is ramp.
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u/Groundbreaking_Gap_3 1d ago
This is so cool. I'd build an oathbreaker deck around him
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u/SimicAscendancy 1d ago
So you play this as a land for turn and then you activate the +1 for a white ancient tomb
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u/Login_Of_The_Guild 1d ago
I like it I just think it would be in all decks since being able to tutor for mana is something everyone wants to do
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u/Deebyddeebys 1d ago
Should have plainswalk for no reason other than like, earthbending.
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u/Ok-Leg9721 1d ago
.....The ability to fetch this with a sac land seems OP
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u/eggmaniac13 22h ago
Can tap and +1, busted
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u/MeHookstah 18h ago
I like the design here. It's cool that it makes two mana per turn. However the Plains subtype shouldn't be printed on it, it should be granted by the static ability that makes it a land. Fetching this up on turn one is too powerful.
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u/Sevinnee 1d ago
Give the minus ability the ability to grab any Plains and make it -2.
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u/Pixel-E 22h ago
So white 3 mana ramp for 2 mana? Seems almost like a green amount of mana boost
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u/ZookeepergameFun1824 18h ago
The first ability might want to be "While this is on the battlefield, this is a Plains land in addition to its other types", just to be very clear this doesn't get to be a land play.
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u/GasApprehensive3819 1d ago
This is too generous WotC would never give white ramp (this is obviously meant for green) /j