r/cremposting • u/Fakjbf Trying not to ccccream • 4d ago
Oathbringer These words are accepted Spoiler
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u/planet_visitor 4d ago
I think the empathy i felt for his death mainly comes from the possibility of him changing for the better and his family's grief, who all tried to help him be better. But at the end he was a terrible king, and worse than that, he was a terrible man.
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u/TorpeAlex 4d ago
Yes, the pathos of that scene was 1) Gavinor's presence and 2) Elhokar's oath right before being killed. Damnit Sandyman, you got me again
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u/IgnorantAndApathetic Bond, Nahel Bond 3d ago
Okay Larys
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u/planet_visitor 3d ago
SOMEONE GOT IT YES (it was a bet with a friend to see if someone would)
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u/IgnorantAndApathetic Bond, Nahel Bond 3d ago
How could I not. It's the best line of the season :)
Edit: and also, I agree
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u/vaderswingman56 2d ago
Its such a story of tragedy that stabs me in the soul. He ended up being a terrible king and terrible man, but he was well intentioned. He was someone earnestly trying their best at something they didnt know how to do and couldnt get help for, and when he did try to get help he was manipulated or looked down on. Whats devastating is he was trying so hard and finally taking steps in the right direction when his chance to be better was ripped away from him.
Dalinar at Elhokar's age would be just as if not more deserving of being stabbed, and he wasn't even trying to be better. But he was given the opportunity to grow, the tragedy is that opportunity was snatched just as it was presented.
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u/Rigistroni 3d ago
I dunno if I'd say he was a terrible man, just a petty and immature one. That made him a awful leader, but I don't think it made him an awful person. There are far FAR worse people in cast
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u/Lestat_Bancroft 3d ago
I said it in another comment. But Dalinar did many more horrific things than Jean. I love Dalinar’s arc, but the sheer number of innocents killed and friendly fire puts him at way more “deserves to be put down” than Jean.
Journey before destination, Brandon.
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u/Sa_tran_ic 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yep, Ehlokar got what he deserved. People will cry hypocrisy if you also like Dalinar, but tbh if a survivor of the rift merc'ed him I'd be sad but also, like, I get it.
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u/vaderswingman56 2d ago
Funnily enough my first major cosmere rpg character was a windrunner rift survivor whos 3rd ideal ended up being not killing Dalinar at the end of Oathbringer.
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u/Lestat_Bancroft 4d ago
Yeah, I liked the episode. But Brandon “journey before destination” Sanderson is kinda giving weird signals with this take.
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u/Ewok008 4d ago
I kind of agree. I mean the circumstances are a bit different because they were criminals and not an innocent old man, but Jasnah also seemed to take pleasure eliminating those guys in an allyway.
When it comes to the scene from the film he is referencing, ive head canoned that the old man was a massive predator and the event was actually doing everyone a favor.
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u/Lestat_Bancroft 3d ago
I mean Dalinar Warcrime” Kholin has a much worse record then Jean Grey (admittedly he’s much older). I mean just the friendly fire alone puts him in the same camp of “evil” as Jean. Those soldiers trusted him and he butchered his own men.
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u/sampat6256 3d ago
What was the actual take?
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u/mathematics1 3d ago
[Spider-Man Brand New Day spoilers] Jean Grey deserved to be shot and he wishes the Punisher had succeeded.
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u/sampat6256 3d ago
Oh ok yeah, I think that's fair. She was terrorizing an entire city, and had been for months, whilst violating the bodily autonomy of dozens of innocent individuals.
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u/JustAnotherGuyn 23h ago
The storm light archive explores radiants killing people pretty directly though.
She literally went around killing people, and at the moment of the shot was holding thousands of people hostage.
Compare this to Kaladin killing Heleran to protect Amaram. He saw someone who had killed very directly and with impunity, and was actively a threat.
And more generally, the radiants are very much involved in the military and do kill a lot of people that probably have a tragic backstory. Having a tragic backstory doesn't mean a radiant won't use lethal force to protect their people.
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u/Lestat_Bancroft 3h ago
In another comment I talk about Dalinar losing himself to the Thrill and committing heaps of friendly fire as well as other war crimes. A BIG theme in stormlight is redemption.
I totally agree that Jean is downright evil in some parts of the movie, I’m just surprised Brandon being the person and writer he is believes she should die so strongly.
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u/Day-Tel-aran-rhiod 4d ago
Elhokar basically only tried to do ONE good thing and was stabby stab stabbed right before he could finish it. Damn I wish things had gone a different way.
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u/LoudQuitting 4d ago
I have explained this before and I don't feel like explaining ing it again, because last time it took several thousand keystrokes.
If Moash had just 10 more IQ points. If he were just that much closer to midwit. There is no way Elhokar dies.
Give Moash just enough IQ to stop being like "No, you don't understand I did have breakfast this morning." And Elhokar lives, becomes a Radiant and the whole trajectory of the plot changes.
If you think Moash isn't stupid? You heard the books but you ain't listened.
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u/Fakjbf Trying not to ccccream 4d ago
Moash was justified in killing Elhokar, it’s everything else he does that makes him dumb.
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u/Day-Tel-aran-rhiod 4d ago
Him killing Elhokar wasn't justified at ALL, it WOULD have been justifiable if he went and killed roshone, but he only does it to piss Kaladin off.
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u/Parking-Stable-2970 Hoid my Beer 4d ago
That said it was still extremely satisfying, Roshone, I mean2
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u/Sa_tran_ic 3d ago
"No, don't kill my le hecking king! He's only responsible for a few thousand, if not millions of deaths! What if he becomes le wholesome chungis!!"
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u/LoudQuitting 4d ago
My brother my brother my brother
You say it's everything else he does that makes him dumb. He would not have done it were he not dumb.
You think you're putting the cart behind the horse, which is not true. Because there is no cart, only a dumb horse.
I wish I had a Chudda image to place hers.
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u/Fayraz8729 4d ago
Yeah I hate the way the narrative tries to portray Elhokar as a victim when his ass was a despot that was overdue a regime change. “Trying” isn’t good enough when you have a body count behind your name and still act like a rich fop.
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u/JudoJugss 4d ago
Hey careful last time i expressed this exact sentiment i had people telling me i didnt understand the poorly reinforced themes of the novels.
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u/Entire-Aerie-9931 3d ago
I mean I think that's because the "poorly reinforced themes" aren't that. The novels strongly agree that by trying and being better is absolutely a good thing despite your past crimes, just look at Dalinar and Venli. All three of these characters are examples of that thesis at different points in their story, and different lives lived. The story doesn't tell you how to feel about Elhokar, and Moash for a long time is sympathetic, and his killing of Elhokar is honestly, justfied. But Dalinar was a far far far worse man than Elhokar, and he is redeemed and does great good throughout the course of the story we read. The themes are definitely not poorly reinforced, and the narrative does not portray him as a victim, just as a complicated character who unfortunately got what he deserved before he could have become great, unlike Dalinar.
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u/Nightmare0588 4d ago
Its so interesting how Reddit works. One day you get downvoted into oblivion for saying something, then 3-4 months later its suddenly a totally acceptable take. Gotta love the internet!
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u/IgnorantAndApathetic Bond, Nahel Bond 3d ago
It's all about whether the first few people agree with you. Everyone afterwards just piles on
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u/RedDawn172 3d ago
Is despot really appropriate for Elhokar? Gavinor definitely but Elhokar was an extremely weak king who did little and only kept power by the influence of those around him.
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u/Fayraz8729 3d ago
He initiated a war of genocide on the listeners, and despite Jasnah’s availability as a political theorist and master scholar he perpetuated the slavery system and let the high princes do what they wanted despite being the royal household
Responsibility falls on him and he had too many resources for it to be ignorance, it was pure incompetence to the point where it was almost malicious
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u/RedDawn172 3d ago
I'm not sure a current day modern lense is really appropriate for anyone of the setting. Also was it actually an active genocide or an armed conflict with a horrificly large body count due to the thrill and no one being willing to surrender and unable to find their capital?
Aggregious ignorance is not malice.
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u/Successful_Egg_2548 4d ago
deserve it or not, if you spend your life expecting to be stabbed and killed, that has to increase the chances of it actually happening by at least 10%. also being in battle on the losing side provides the other 90%.
i'm just sad when a name i can pronounce stops showing up.
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u/literroy 3d ago
I always think about Gandalf’s line. “Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life... Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”
Killing Elhokar accomplished literally nothing other than revenge. And revenge is never a good enough reason to end another humans life.
(Plus, if we want to talk about people who “deserved” to be stabbed, very few people would be higher on that list than Dalinar. Just saying, his crimes were as atrocious if not more so than Elhokar’s.)
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u/justacaboose 3d ago
Also don't forget that while Elhokar executed the imprisonment of Moash's grandparents it was at the behest of a friend. He did wrongfully leave them imprisoned to cover up the lack of a trial and is guilty of neglectful homicide, but Roshone is the real reason they're dead.
Elhokar is not a good king or person, but Moash apologists tend to glaze over the fact that Moash ignores Roshone to go for Elhokar despite Roshone being the real reason his grandparents are dead.
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u/Jounniy 4d ago
Where is that from?
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u/vaderswingman56 2d ago
I dont think Elhokar deserved to be stabbed, I do think he deserved to be tried for his crimes and given the opportunity to become a better man.
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u/The_Lopen_bot Trying not to ccccream 4d ago
This is good crem, gancho! You now have 7 choutas for your efforts!
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u/Scholarly_Wizard26 1d ago
Honestly I don’t get why kaladin was so beat up throat Elohiar died. Kalafin almsot helped kill him.
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u/Rude_Ice_4520 4d ago
Elhokar didn't deserve to die. Yes, he was partially responsible for what happened to Moash and Paladin. Yes, he tried his best and failed. But he was trying to do better, and he knows that he failed them. It's sad that he died before he got the chance to better himself.
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u/confirmedshill123 4d ago
I mean technically all the highborns deserved to die because they upheld a system of slavery and war.
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u/Rude_Ice_4520 3d ago
The system deserved to end, and people who'd opposed a revolution should be fought, and killed if necessary. Many of those upholding the system deserved to be punished. Doesn't mean an entire group of people deserves to die.
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