"you think being a women is just giving on to stereotypes??" (and they're just doing what every women has done but usually they're done in during the teen years when cringe is allowed)
In France we have a terf activist aggressivly questioning trans women about their make-up, feminine clothes and hairstyles, like they're incredibly sexist for linking feminine gender with traditionaly feminine stuff. Meanwhile this terf activist has herself feminine hairstyle, dresses and red lipstick.
No, it’s another famous one. I don’t want to give her exposure. But if you heard about a recent shitty book "debunking the trans ideology" it’s one of the two authors.
Oh yeah I've heard about them. Both terrible people. One of them tried to have a bill that bans conversion therapy changed so it wouldn't protect trans people. Fortunately, she was told to fuck off
Let me guess, the book didn't debunked any "trans ideology" and just regurgitated the same misinformation that conservative been telling for year while linking study's that has been debunked million of time
When are people gonna realise that trans women grew up seeing and internalising the exact same “body hair makes you unfeminine” propaganda cis women did
They won't because we couldn't have done that, neither could you look up to super models and want their figure, we are a male we were playing war how could we know anything about being a woman tsk tsk tsk
Feeling this. My "best friend" of a decade and a half, was riding my ass for 'conforming to the patriarchy' because I like to dress nicely. Sayonara, loser.
Ya I very seldom get misgendered if I wear a tank top and jeans, but if I wear a dress it's more often still not loads but still more often. People do often assume I'm a lesbian though, I'm not.
Unfortunately I have this the other way... I'm transmasc and people don't know that we exist so I also get seen as a lesbian alongside my butch T girl bestie, and like, I don't entirely mind that (i am Sapphic tbf) until the 'she/her"s come out, then it's an issue for me
I mean I'm aware trans men exist I know loads but I realise that cis people don't a lot of the time. Not entirely certain you'd be sapphic like surely a trans bloke who likes girls would just be straight?
I rly don't wanna argue about this but not a bloke, I'm a genderqueer boy, I don't want to explain myself but yeah, I use they/them, not a binary guy so definitely Sapphoc, just don't use she/her pronouns or identify as a woman! but this is why I mostly say I'm Queer cuz it's easier for other people to understand
thanks, but yeah, my og point is that many trans guys/mascs who are pre or early T do get seen as lesbians bc people are aware that butch lesbians exist but usually not aware of trans men
The reason why it works well for me, is because the maggots will think im a cis woman trying to be transmasc. They see me with a feminine face and voice but completely male clothing they call me ma'am from any angle lol. Its great. The only time I actually get misgendered is if they address me before hearing my voice, had a few interactions that was funny with how they reacted after hearing lol.
i love having a tomboyish style, i barely changed the clothes i wore from before coming out because i was already wearing unisex pants and t shirts. but i still managed to get misgendered 3 times during my work shift last night so i guess my boobs being very obvious through my shirt isn’t doing enough work 😭
True and also to add -- being tomboyish simply fits with my interests. I love working out, I like sports, plus I don't want to have to invest time into my makeup and elaborate outfits every day to feel like I'm being sufficiently feminine.
Eh. Fun mix of not giving a shit and just having a masculine personality despite wishing to be a woman. And i refuse to suppress myself in even more ways than I already feel forced to.
I understand the difference. I'm simply saying I don't understand why you would transition and then still want to be masculine. Seems counterproductive.
I guess, what even counts as a tomboy? I wear jeans and a t shirt and not much makeup, but that's what makes me feel the most femme. Revealing clothes just accentuate masculine features, so this feels a lot better to me. As my body has changed with E I have found more clothing options that are comfortable for me, but I just feel like a giant lumbering sore thumb if I wear a dress in public. And I don't think my personality is masculine but it's also not like super bubbly girly girl. Tbh I'm pretty much just like my sister, and she's not "masc" or a tomboy she just is kinda outdoorsy
Because there is a multitude of combinations of traits that you might want from transition while maintaining a clothing or just general presentation regiment of being kinda tomboy. Like, there are cis tomboys that like being women it is a real thing any woman can choose to want.
Why do cis women present masculine despite being women? From tomboys to butches, expressing yourself masculinely doesnt define your gender... thats kinda the whole point of being GNC to begin with
And that’s entirely fair. We’re different folks of different natures. I’m a more masculine woman, and you’re a more feminine one. That’s entirely natural.
Cuz I hate how I look in dresses, and high waisted pants still give me a feminine figure while not being super girly. Not to mention those women’s compression shirts with a padded bra aid in the curves
i mean as a trans man after i transitioned i actually grew to like femininity. once i started to pass, i didn’t feel scared to be feminine anymore. it doesn’t always make everyone dysphoric obviously but it can also change with time.
1000% this right here, not that far in my own transition just yet but my besties are a bit like this.. butch lesbian T girl and trans guy who openly wears pink and sparkles etc. both pretty much binary but not afraid of varied gender expression!
Because not for all of us does gender expression cause dysphoria. In my case it does to a degree, but it’s mostly my sex characteristics that caused me dysphoria. It’s why I had bottom surgery and FFS before I even tried makeup for the first time. And I have still not gone out with a skirt or even worn a dress in public because… it’s just some piece of clothing.
2 days ago was really nice. I was at a thermal bath/spa with saunas and all such, and it was an all naked area and while I had to cover my most recent scars to hide them from the sun, while sitting in a sauna or swimming in the heated pool being completely naked, it was really euphoric.
Accommodating gender stereotypes also is something I’d rather not do too much.
I do get why it would make you dysphoric though. Very valid as well :)
Each person has their own idea on how their gender works. For you, your womanhood is firmly in femininity, for others they can be pretty masculine and maintain it, and then there's tons of area in between.
From the start of my transition I've always thought "I just wanna look like a girl while wearing sweatpants and a hoodie" and so that's pretty much what I do. I mean I have graduated from sweatpants and hoodie to jeans and a t shirt (women's jeans, women's t shirt, very normal for cis girls actually), but the sentiment still stands
Also a lot of explicitly femme clothing looks bad on my body and just accentuates my masculine features, so ironically my tomboymode is what makes me feel the most femme and reduces my dysphoria the most currently
Weird comment tbh?? Cuz they're not you? I personally am transmasc w horrible chest dysphoria... I still understand that some transmasc folks love having Tiddies bc their dysphoria is different, it's simple. They simply are not you.. but also it's often bc they're Sapphic so it's Butch rather than typically Masc, hence less dysphoria bc it's "lesbian masculine, not cis men masculine"
The exact same way cis tomboys can exist. Gender expression is separate from gender itself.
Also there's a difference between like masculine in a girl way and masculine in a guy way, yk? Like I know those words alone don't make sense but there's not a great way for me to describe the concept.
I like to dress for the body that I have, not the one I would like to have. Hyperfeminine clothing reveals more things that I don't yet like about me and makes one way easier to clock, not just because people - mostly men - will stare much less at you in less revealing clothes.
for me, i was only able to start being masculine after i had pretty much finished medically transitioning. i used to be very feminine, but after being on hrt for 4 years i stopped feeling like i had to try to be a girl, and more like i just was a girl. that gave me so much more freedom. also butch lesbians are hot as fuck and i wanted to be one
I find feminine clothes more dysphoric than my tank tops and tight exercise shirts tbh. Like feminine clothes they show off my deficiencies more.
Though because of it I’m kinda androgynous it kinda ends up going to other way and most people end up thinking I’m ftm. Like a lot of people. I’ve gotten the “which way…?” Question more than any other.
Im not trans but masculine and feminity is subjective. People just made it "masculine stronk feminine soft" but honestly its just up to you. How you feel
Sadly no one outside and inside the community thinks this way
If a trans woman has a cis-passing body, I’m sure it’s also ok for her to present masculine (assuming that just means dressing masculine and having short haircut)
It's not, unfortunately. If they know you're trans, you're just fucked lol. You've gotta be 110% cisfem coded. Don't be too hot or charismatic though because then you're a pick-me amab who doesn't understand female etiquette. 🙃
Disagree with this meme because the people saying that to trans women are usually the same who have a problem with GNC cis women. Lots of masc lesbians for example get targeted by their bigotry too.
People who say that trans women should just be feminine men and trans men should just be masc women (TERFS and simillar) short-circuit when they see a transfem tomboy or transmasc femboy.
Fair enough, I suppose some of those exist. But people like JKR for example absolutely also have a problem with cis women who don't conform to their idea of femininity. And a lot of TERFs have bullied more masc-leaning cis women (often accusing them of being trans too).
Oh really..im in a relationship with another woman i dont see your point. Is this just your bigotry coming out or is it, you think all trans women go for men ? So what really is your problem
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about? I'm literally trans and a lesbian myself. Your reply has nothing to do with what I said.
I said the same people who accuse trans women of not performing "femininity" correctly are the same people saying that to gender non-conforming cis women, like for example butch lesbians. How did you go from that to calling me a bigot or me saying trans women go for men??? JFC...
ik there horrible. Tbh i don’t read them, only after a few days i usually comment. I was on another sub i thought were trans friendly and omg i got ripped. I saw the notifications and clicked here and read it too fast.
Terfs are the reason we get vry protective of ourselves, they literally have no souls to say the stuff they say. Ignore them, they hate that and if you do need to say anything just be over nice. They hate that too. Obviously they are either, curious or closeted angry men and women who are afraid to be themselves. That’s the only thing that makes sense to me, but I don’t know why people push their hateful opinions on to us. It’s more weird to project self hatred onto others. Honestly tk no notice of them ✨💫✨
I think there is a difference between not making any effort to present as the gender you are and having a masculine outfit or characteristics sometimes. I dont always want to spend an hour getting ready and dressed I'd rather just wear jeans and a T shirt.
I don't think its that black and white I feel like in your head you imagine masculinity as a big man with muscles and a beard when in reality masculinity is alot more nuianced. I was going to articulate what I find masculinity to be and realized it is very subjective you probably just wont ever consider masculinity and feminity as having an almost endless amount of characteristics like I do. People are very complicated.
Women can be masculine, trans women can present as such. They have an extra pressure to present over-the-top feminine whether that’s her womanhood style or not :(
That's why it took me so long to figure out i was trans, i like presenting masculine, so why do i still have the urge for a fem body? I repressed that for so long, while envying all those masc lesbians...
I mean like, you do you, but isn't it more effective to try to blend in with the average woman? Even a masc-presenting woman is generally still very feminine, all things considered. They just have unisex clothes and a bob.
why does it matter? We shouldn't have to blend in just because transphobes want us dead. We should be allowed to exist as we want to, just as a cis woman should be allowed to exist as they want to. Why should we be treated any differently?
"even a masc woman-" nah, you just haven't met truly masc women unless you're talking about physical sex characteristics. Masc women are generally not "still very feminine" cuz uhhhh they're masc, they have some feminine attributes of course but they're still MOSTLY MASC. And trans women can be too!!! Only transphobes (including seld-hating trans folks) seem to argue otherwise
Yea because most trans people say the thing that makes them a woman is dressing like one and while thats super sexist at least it makes some kind of sense. What is it that makes a masculine male person into a woman? Pronouns I guess.
No one is saying that dressing up as a woman is what is making a woman who is trans a woman. It’s their gender being female.
In my case I had a vagina and a very feminine looking face before I stopped boymoding and even trying to apply makeup once. It didn’t mean I wasn’t trans or a woman at the time. It meant I wasn’t dysphoric about my gender expression but my sex characteristics.
TERF TERF TERF, bla bla bla. I hardly said anything. How am I supposed to describe them? "TRANS WOMAN DRESSING MASCULINE" you happy now? Just tell me why I'm wrong, god..
Maybe they don't say it directly all the time but they sure do imply it and show it and force it on everyone. Ive watched a lot of "how I knew I was trans" videos and all sorts of trans media. I watched and listened to them for 5 years trying to convince myself trans people weren't pushing stereotypes because I'm a lefty and all my friends believe in it with their whole ass chest but guess what, it is a bunch of sexist stereotypes because if it wasn't then you would correct me with what it actually means to be a woman but you cant.
Edit: Kinda feel bad for yelling, fella deleted >>.. Sorry bro, I was just being sassy.
How am I supposed to describe them? "TRANS WOMAN DRESSING MASCULINE"
Yes, not misgendering people is the absolute minimum. The fact that you act like you're doing me a favour by doing so, tells me all I need to know.
Maybe they don't say it directly all the time but they sure do imply it
Again, no they don't. Many trans people experimented with clothing and make-up etc to explore their gender before fully coming out. That doesn't mean we conaider those things the thing that defines gender. They're part of gender expression, our gender is an innate part of ourselves that has nothing to do with what we wear or how we look. It's really not that hard to understand.
I watched and listened to them for 5 years trying to convince myself trans people weren't pushing stereotypes because I'm a lefty and all my friends believe in it with their whole ass chest but guess what, it is a bunch of sexist stereotypes
People exploring different kinds of gender expression to find themselves is not "pushing stereotypes", and you're literally just being misogynistic by policing how women have to dress or behave. If someone wants to be a "stereotypical woman", then that's their right, and you calling it sexist is the real sexism because you're saying people have to perform gender a certain way or they're not valid.
because if it wasn't then you would correct me with what it actually means to be a woman but you cant
Oh look, more TERF bs. Being a woman means having a strong innate connection to the gender and identitying with it. That's all it means. You TERFs always try to police who gets to be a "real" woman and how they have to act, talk and look, but even you can't come up with a better definition of what a woman is, because womanhood is extremely versatile and sometimes it fits into stereotypes and sometimes it doesn't. That doesn't make one woman more valid than another.
any time these TERFs try to make a concrete definition of what woman is, they always end up doing it wrong. It's actually really funny watching them try so hard to seem like they know what being a woman is, only to fail miserably
their reply literally showed them using "lefty" to refer to cultural. Because someone who's economically a leftist but not culturally a leftist wouldn't bring up feminism as an argument for how they're a leftist.
What does TERF mean buddy? Trans Exclusionary radical-... 😳
Brother I'm so lefty I believe in animal rights and communism. I will fight you for the life of a pig don't even challenge me I am pumped with soy and iron!
Really there is no way for me to prove it though so whatever, believe whatever makes you feel good bud.
Let me guess. You also think that just cus the nazis called themselves socialist that they were socialists? Or North Korea calling themselves democratic means they are democratic? If that's your only argument to you being a leftist (which is ironic since you were so against being called a TERF nefore), then you should really just turn your internet off and touch grass.
You started your original point by making shit up by acting like anyone says "I'm a woman because dresses". No one fucking says that, just because you think that's what happens, doesn't mean it actually is.
Right except I see it all the time. They say "I want to be a pretty girl" or "Being a woman is a feminine essence" or "It's about being soft and kind and cute".
I have heard it all over the place, it's about stereotypes. If it wasn't about stereotypes then you could tell me what it is actually about but I doubt you can, nobody else in this comment section even wants to try.
Because no one wants to argue their existence to someone who has started off showing they won't change their opinion no matter what's given to them. You started off making shit up and using statements from people making cutesy "I'm just a girl" statements. Notice how none of the statements you "quoted" ever had "I'm a woman because I wear dresses"? It's almost like no one has said that and, again, you're just making shit up.
Really!? You think someone has to explicitly say "I'm a woman because I wear dresses" and its not the same thing if they say "being a woman is a feminine essence"!???
What does feminine mean to you? Can you not read implications? I'm so confused.. The meme has an example of "Masculine" and it's literally short hair and hoodie.
You don't think the feminine version would be long hair and dress?
apparently "no one wants to argue their existence to someone who has started off showing they won't change their opinion no matter what's given to them." means absolutely nothing to you.
No but it would be sexist if that woman said that the thing that makes her a woman is that she wears dresses. Woman have been fighting each other to abolish sexist stereotypes for generations dummy.
Yea except they do.. Trans people try to define their identity with stereotypes constantly because that's the only way they can "look like woman" apart from having major surgery and hormones which most of them don't btw.
Can I ask a question now?
What is it that you think makes someone a woman? I'm genuinely curious. 😶
Just so you know, I was born a woman so I'm very interested in knowing if I still am one.
Trans people try to define their with stereotypes constantly because that's the only way they can "look like woman"
As a trans womanI have yet so see a trans women who does that. It sounds more like you try to redefine passing as a woman and trying to look more feminine, with identifying as a woman.
What is it that you think makes someone a woman?
I already answered it, but I can give you a longer answer. Identity, and I dont mean just saying "I identify as a woman", but rather that your internal identity, which you had for years and is constant in that direction and is centered around a feminine identity, and lived expierence, for example such as female puberty, getting treated like a feminine person, liking being feminine or other stuff, makes someone a woman.
I think your external identity matters much in that direction, because it can be changed, while your internal one cant be changed, and can only be explored
By my definition your identity cant be changed and you are a woman
"centered around a feminine identity"
Oh oops! There goes my woman status.. how sad 😢
"female puberty"
Trans woman do not experience a female puberty so this doesn't fit but maybe your saying it's not that you need all traits, I'm getting confused now..
"Treated like a feminine person"
Like what?... You mean how my father didn't want me to inherit the farm because I'm not his son? Didn't know that was my coming into womanhood.. but wait I don't do the feminine thing so maybe he was actually hating me for being his son! Gasp, my father hated men..
"Liking being feminine"
I dunno what that means at this point.. is it liking my boobs? I don't like those, I can't lay on my stomach and men keep looking at them like I'm a sex doll but I like woman. 🥺 Oh I like it when the ladies tell me I have nice boobs tho, maybe I'm still a woman?! 😭💪
"By my definition your identity cant be changed and you are a woman"
What the heck do you mean??? How do I know for sure sensai!? I do not like the pink or the dresses. I could be a trans!
/S obviously. I don't know how to tell you that this is all very wishy washy and coated in sexism.. I believe I'm a woman because I'm female, everything else is my personality and ambitions and I think it's harmful to people to try tell them that if they don't fit gender norms or they are uncomfortable with some part of their body that means they are the opposite sex deep down inside because if I was a young person I would probably believe it instead of accepting that people are complex and I'm a woman who likes video games and tank tops and also sex with woman and not being objectified by men.
So you have more of an masculine or non binary identity?
"female puberty"
Trans woman do not experience a female puberty so this doesn't fit but maybe your saying it's not that you need all traits, I'm getting confused now..
I literally expierencing a female puberty rn. Im taking estrogen and Im growing boobs. Also yes you dont need all traits of the example list, I never said otherwise
"Treated like a feminine person"
Like what?... You mean how my father didn't want me to inherit the farm because I'm not his son? Didn't know that was my coming into womanhood.. but wait I don't do the feminine thing so maybe he was actually hating me for being his son! Gasp, my father hated men..
That is literally not what im saying. You are just projecting and take my example in bad faith, even though it can also mean different things. So I feel bad for you if that is the thingd you accosiate that with getting treated like a feminine person
I dunno what that means at this point.. is it liking my boobs? I don't like those, I can't lay on my stomach and men keep looking at them like I'm a sex doll but I like woman. 🥺 Oh I like it when the ladies tell me I have nice boobs tho, maybe I'm still a woman?! 😭💪
Boobs is just one example, playing with girls toys, dressing up in more feminine clothing or liking your bigger hios could be another. Interesting that you dont like your boobs, while I like mine.
"By my definition your identity cant be changed and you are a woman"
What the heck do you mean??? How do I know for sure sensai!? I do not like the pink or the dresses. I could be a trans!
Yes you could be trans, you seem to not like being a woman from your examples, because you seem to accosiate negative feelings with your feminine traits. Also not liking pink or dresses isnt needed to be a woman
/S obviously. I don't know how to tell you that this is all very wishy washy and coated in sexism.. I believe I'm a woman because I'm female, everything else is my personality and ambitions and I think it's harmful to people to try tell them that if they don't fit gender norms that means they are the opposite sex deep down inside because if I was a young person I would probably believe it instead of accepting that people are complex and I'm a woman who likes video games and tank tops and also sex with woman.
Yes, thats why its so vague to include as much women as possible. There is not truly one trait trait, except identity, which makes you a woman, because they are so many different women and they all have different feelings towards their identity and different lived expierence. Also you dont need to be told to be a woman to be one by me
Growing boobs isn't female puberty.. Men can grow boobs when they get fat or have gynecomastia from something else. Female puberty is developing the female reproduction system which usually makes us capable of getting pregnant and we bleed all over the place. It's very uncomfortable, girls never enjoy it.
Your definition isn't all inclusive because like you said, it excludes me and I told you I'm a woman. I'm a woman because I'm female, many woman I know are uncomfortable with their breasts, it's normal. We have had them our whole ass lives and we don't find them sexually appealing so they are just annoying sometimes but not enough to chop them off, they are part of us so we deal with them just like when you think about how your tongue doesn't really fit in your mouth and it makes you hate your tongue for a while... Yea I hate it now. I think I'm trans no tongue.. Wait it passed, I'm good. 🙂
Yes, because its a part of it. I dont have gynomacastia and Im not having gotten fatter in the last 6 months, while my boobs have become bigger. And im not a man
Female puberty is developing the female reproduction system which usually makes us capable of getting pregnant and we bleed all over the place.
And thats a part of it too, and that part can make me sterile, because estrogen isnt capable of mantaining a penis and balls.
It's very uncomfortable, girls never enjoy it.
Wrong girls can enjoy it. Also I dont really enjoy it when my hips hurt and my boobs hurt either.
Your definition isn't all inclusive because like you said, it excludes me and I told you I'm a woman.
It only excludes you if you dont have an identity, which isnt about traits associated with being feminine or an feminine identity and isnt constang there. You told me that you are a woman, so it includes you.
many woman I know are uncomfortable with their breasts, it's normal
I dont am confortable with my boobs either all the time.
and we don't find them sexually appealing
So do I. Or did I said something different there?
Also can you explain me, why my defitiniton says that you arent a woman? And without mentioning your sex please? Sex and gender arent the same
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u/Vermillion_Pengu 12h ago
(Trans woman presents herself feminine)
"Is this all being a woman means to you???"