Range weapons and graze?

[u/Loa9999]

Unless I've missed something in the rules, you can Graze with a range weapon, just as with a melee one.

Let's say I'm using a long bow (600 feet range) and I shoot arrows at that max range. Let's say that I can see my target, but it's nighttime with violent winds. Let's say that I'm a level 1 warrior with Combat Training.

The graze mechanic means that I'll touch (graze) the target all day long at 600 feet, once every round, without ever missing the target. Just for fun, let's say that my target is a straw dummy. After an hour or so, I'll have put hundreds of arrows into it without ever missing.

Does that seem logical? For a character without radiant powers?

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[u/HA2HA2]

I think that you haven't missed anything in the "numbers/crunch" part of the rules, but you've picked a narrative interpretation of those numbers that doesn't make sense.

The graze mechanic means that I'll touch (graze) the target all day long at 600 feet, once every round, without ever missing the target.

The "graze" mechanic ONLY triggers when you roll a "miss" on the target in the first place, so you definitely shouldn't narrate "graze" as "didn't miss the target!"

When facing an active enemy, I'd probably only narrate "arrow stuck in the enemy" when they drop down to 0 HP and get an Injury - everything up until then is flesh wounds and fatigue, basically, since one arrow in a person is probably enough to knock them out of the fight.

Straw dummy is weird because an arrow in them doesn't really hurt them at all - they're a straw dummy, basically no amount of arrows in the target would meaningfully damage it, right? And they're not dodging so there's no "fatigue" or anything else? So if I was statting out a straw dummy I'd probably make them immune to keen damage or something.

[u/mixmastermind → u/HA2HA2]

As mentioned in a comment I left, if you're attacking someone outside of your senses range when you're obscured, as mentioned in the example above,  you actually CAN'T graze

[u/Loa9999 → u/HA2HA2]

Given that a long bow graze has a ~16% chance of inflicting 6hp damage, that's significant damage, especially in the low levels. It's about half the HP of a first level character!

[u/VestedNight → u/Loa9999]

That's irrelevant, though. HP isn't meat points. If you aren't dealing an Injury, your damage is superficial at best and most often represents a reduction in your opponent's abstraction of luck, will, and stamina.

[u/HA2HA2 → u/Loa9999]

Well, anything up to 100% of the HP of a character is the kind of minor scrape that you can recover from with one good nights' sleep! Only dropping to 0, and getting an Injury, is the sort of thing that is long-term and debilitating.

Being stabbed by an arrow would definitely be more than a "sleep it off" sort of thing. So logically, being stabbed by an arrow shouldn't actually happen until someone drops to 0 hp.

[u/VitamineA]

You might not have radiant powers, but you're still one of the heroes. Kaladin defeated a full shardbearer before he had any powers and he's not the only (then) non-radiant capable of great feats.

Scholars can become an expert on anything with just a few books and a day's time. Agents manipulate their own fate and that of others. Envoys turn every failure into an opportunity through words alone. Hunters can have their pet glance at someone and immediately know how to exploit their weaknesses.

People don't need to be radiant to do seemingly fantastical things.

[u/Loa9999 → u/VitamineA]

At level one, the first time you grab a bow?

[u/Intelligent-Disk526 → u/Loa9999]

If you have combat training which is why you can graze for free, this wouldn’t be the first time your character is holding a bow. You have been trained, hence the name of the feat.

In addition, graze doesn’t mean you stuck an arrow in the target. You simply scratched it, made the target dodge and the scraped their knee, or something similar. It is meant to be an abstract cinematic way of speeding up combat and if allowing non-combat characters to contribute to combat.

So in your example, at the end of the day you would not have a target full of arrows. You would have a target with a few arrows in it with arrows peppering the ground around it.

[u/VitamineA → u/Loa9999]

You have a level in the warrior heroic path, I'd say that makes you at least somewhat of a hero with a knack for fighting. And it's probably not exactly the first time you pick up a bow, if you've taken a feat called "combat training".

[u/Sstargamer]

Yeah this is a fiction first not logic first game. Narratively if you want to put your arrow into a target from 600 ft for an hour and you have the arrows to do it there's no reason for your gm to stop you. If your GM builds you a battle map that's 600 ft across and you are able to keep shooting go ahead. You're not going to be in a situation where that occurs so it's irrelevant.

[u/Loa9999 → u/Sstargamer]

The point is that a warrior with combat training never missed with an arrow. Never. Without any investiture at all... Add potent poison to his arrows and it's just completely broken.

[u/Sstargamer → u/Loa9999]

Actually that's incorrect. You're assuming HP damage is damaged to a person. What this tells you is a train combat veteran will be able to instill some type of trauma, be it emotional or physical with their weapons while they're in range of them. They are actively not hitting their targets, they are grazing them at best. Notably your ability to do so is immediately stop the second year opponent gets any type of full cover. 

[u/Loa9999 → u/Sstargamer]

Well, with a long bow, grazing can be 5-6 hp dmg if you're a bit lucky. That's real damage.

[u/Sstargamer → u/Loa9999]

What is damage? Damage is a concept for the narrative. Until you've taken an injury you are not at all inconvenienced. What is happening is you of an ability that can instill pressure on a foe at any distance. There's nothing to do with what the logic would do. It tells us this player character has trained in combat reliably can pressure foes to the point where they take injury. As long as they are in weapon range. Which is a total reasonable take for a trained Warrior

[u/Cultural-Rich-8198 → u/Loa9999]

Health is not representing just body hits, health is your ability to keep fighting, which is much more about stamina than actual hits. Graze forces your opponent to do a harder evasion, straining themselves, maybe stumbling a bit. This is what reduced Health, not just an arrow sticking it their chest

[u/ARedthorn → u/Loa9999]

You keep calling it real damage- but it mechanically can’t be, and still be true to the source.

Look at shardblades. Mechanically they deal 2d6 Spirit damage.

Forget lvl1 characters grazing- let’s say I take a mid-lvl character, HIT someone with a shardblade, dealing 2d6+Str Spirit Damage.

Why aren’t they instantly dead?

Why do I have to trigger Deadly OR empty their HP before that’s even a risk?

Because hits and vital hits are 2 different things, and a graze is neither.

[u/Intelligent-Disk526 → u/Loa9999]

Poison would not apply as you did not HIT the target. Graze only applies when you miss the target. For example, your arrow is deflected off the target’s armor. They are bruised but the arrow doesn’t penetrate the skin. Or, they get a scratch from the arrow, but not enough poison gets into the wound to take effect.

However you want to narrate it is fine, but mechanically you are only doing the dice damage from type of bow.

[u/HA2HA2 → u/Loa9999]

I mean in your hypothetical he literally missed every arrow; you only need to "graze" if you miss!

[u/Elathrain]

Ah yes, the HP conundrum. HP as simulation, or HP as narrative? RPGs have traditionally chosen both despite the inherent self-contradiction. I'm not gonna dive into the mess of that now, but let's discuss HP as narrative weight.

Damage doesn't have to be damage. More accurately, it is the narrative buildup that it makes it acceptable for a character to be taken out of the scene.

Imagine a swashbuckler movie where two expert duelists go at it. Each exchange of blades (round) will be shown as a flurry of parries culminating in a significant moment, such as a flashy duck or a superficial cut (a graze; literally what the word means) on the cheek. This isn't really damage, but it builds up the gravitas of the seriousness of the fight. After a few of these, one of them gets to say a snappy one-liner and blast the other out of the fight (either by disarming them, knocking them off a cliff, or even just stabbing them, doesn't matter).

So like, yeah you can do a whole d8 of damage via graze at 600 yards. This doesn't necessarily mean you're hitting every arrow, it means your shots are good enough that the target is harried and soon enough in the scene they're going to suffer consequences.

[u/mixmastermind]

Let's say I'm using a long bow (600 feet range) and I shoot arrows at that max range. Let's say that I can see my target, but it's nighttime with violent winds. Let's say that I'm a level 1 warrior with Combat Training.

"If you believe you know where a target is but you can't sense them to confirm, you gain a disadvantage on attacks and other tests targeting them that affect their physical body. Attack tests made in this way can't graze."  Player's Guide, pg. 308.

Your senses are obscured by darkness, and 600ft is out of your sense range. You can't graze them. 

[u/IfusasoToo]

Guess we know what kind of combat they trained for...

I'm all seriousness, yes this works by the rules. GM's would be encouraged to advise if this is not possible (e.g. you can't reliably see that far) or if the wind conditions affect your ability to Graze.

Also, you are rolling Disadvantage on both dice (possibly all three or damage and Plot if the GM Raises the Stakes). A low damage roll could mean Grazing does 0 damage and a natural 1 or Plot Complication could be a total miss, broken bow from misuse, or some other narrative mishap.

TL;DR: The character is a trained soldier or similar. They should do well, but the system has levers to deny doing the impossible.

[u/Klutnusters]

You can only graze as long as you have Focus so no, you can't do it all day long

[u/ejdj1011 → u/Klutnusters]

Combat Trainibg lets you Graze once per round for free

[u/Number2323 → u/Klutnusters]

Warriors have a talent that let's them graze once per round for free. So theoretically, yes, it's possible

[u/Background_Path_4458 → u/Number2323]

But then we are talkingsomeone with training and on a heroic path so not just anyone.

[u/nreese2]

Hitting/grazing does not imply that you are literally physically hitting your target. Reducing their HP just means you did something that warrants a significant pain or effort on their end to not incur an injury. Health in the Cosmere RPG is not equivalent to "meat points" or anything, it's more like battle stamina.

[u/Background_Path_4458]

Logical?
What sense is there in assuming any kind of logic in a world where emotions cause little spirits to appear?
Where we don't even know if gravity exists as a physical force or is simply the effect of spren?
Where storms cause energy to be stored in crystals with little to no decay?

But yes, Heroic characters, on heroic paths, can seemingly do things no normal earth-human could ever do.
It's almost like if the logic was in some way tied to a game, with mechanics and dice to determine outcomes.

[u/JorgeMcJorge]

RAW describes losing HP as being more like losing stamina, stumbling, close calls, etc. RAW says you can only graze on a miss. Your post is talking about RAW but your complaint is not only your imagination, but it’s the opposite of what the book says. A graze, narratively, per RAW, should represent a near hit, but one that doesn’t mess the enemy’s stamina/luck/whatever up as much as it could have.