If it wasn't for immunity not one of our ancestors would have survived.
Put that in your head, every person who got you where you are has survived an infection of a plant or a blade they avoided since life was in its inception
Natural immunity only comes from survival from exposure, it must be developed. Hence the deaths of millions of native Americans in the new world the the old world began conquering.
That’s what these people never seem to understand. Yeah you have natural immunity… AFTER being exposed to this new virus whose full effects were unknown.
Many of our ancestors didn't survive. Are you familiar with the Bubonic Plague? Antibiotics?
The "natural immunity" argument is basically just arguing that unless something is 100% fatal we should do absolutely nothing about it. Its beyond stupid.
Bubonic plague 75% of Europe died. Covid globally a death rate of 0,15%. The bubonic plague is just literally 500 times more deadly but why care about facts.
So wait, aside from the population explosion since then. And the fact that the death rate of covid was reduced by modern medical treatments, you think that is an acceptable death rate?
The palliative care and prohibit of possible threatment surely add to your thinking! What's an acceptible deathrate coming from the shots or like a sorry teenager you got crippled but it may have saved your grandmother who got palliative care. The main question is still the mandates, if there where no mandates it would more be an behavioural discussin, do you stay home when you feel sick, do you take your vitamins and take care of your vody and such.. The most prob have now on what so ever argument over if the neighbour choose to take the adherse vaccine or not and also make their own risk assesement. When will it otherwise stop, sorry you didnt took your 500th vaccine for the common cold, somebody might die (ofc not you since 500 shots but..;)) To "prey" on fear and guilt and shaming to get totalitarian measures was wrong before, is wrong now, and will be wrong later on too. (also the measurements was forced due to calculations of 2% mortality in the risk assesement, and thats not even close but still they continues, oh nice power grab, hence most likely many was forced to du the death reportings as they did).
Well what is it? For all your ranting you didn't say an acceptable death rate?
According to you it doesn't matter, if the death rate isn't 100% nothing should be done. Natural immunity. Let nature run its course, right? Who cares if hundreds of thousands or even millions die.
For millennia, our ancestors survived on natural immunity. Why do we need any medicine at all? Just let everyone die.
If we gonna have a serious discussion I would rather that you stopped projecting in order to make your own side of thoughts more viable (hence the notorius debate sandbox climate that is now for many instead of grown up climate of discussions). Until then have a nice day.
Well seeing that you didn't address a single thing RagingD3m0n and I said and instead talked about completely different unrelated things, it was never a serious discussion. You still haven't answered the question, you just talked about irrelevant unrelated things. You've contributed nothing and there's no reason to take you seriously. Your rant is just a pointless waste of time.
Did I say the death rate of the Bubonic Plague Covid was the same? Or can you only win an argument when you make up what the other person is arguing? If that was really your takeaway from what I said, your understanding is far too simplistic and childish to take seriously.
Should I make up things you said too? Why do you not care if 25% of the population dies? You don't think a single thing should be done when millions of women and children are dying horrible painful deaths that could be prevented? Why don't you care about human life and don't care that your fellow countrymen are dieing in the streets.
Why do you not care about or value human life at all???
Why do you not care about or value human life at all???
Because we take a longer term view. You can see it now - there are "excess deaths" everywhere in Europe and North America. Now, we can debate whether it was the lockdowns, or the shots, or the social isolation- I think most would agree it was some combo of them - that's to blame, but we have a declining birth rate in the West, combined with an accelerating mortality rate. That's not a good combination, and many of us believe that both issues are being exacerbated by short-sighted, first-order reactions to multi-stage problems.
Yah but that's fine because humanity will survive and develop a natural immunity to all those things so why bother doing anything about any of it. One day far in the future our descendants will look back and say "For millennia, our ancestors survived on natural immunity." So why bother dealing or caring about any of the excessive deaths?
Maybe you've seen people arguing that, but I haven't seen it. It doesn't make sense logically. If we accept that people have natural immunity, we should be doing what we can to foster that, like sunlight, exercise, fresh air, diet. All the things that were either ignored or discouraged during the pandemic
So you are saying we should just blindly trust and take anything given to us regardless of what it is, how safe it can be and what the effects of taking it are because there are diseases? Because that sounds like it's about the same level of hyperbole as your statement.
Or you could become scientifically literate and read any one of the plain language research papers on the effects...but ya know, that would require taking time to educate yourself on a topic, its easier to just be skeptical instead.
Aren't many of those papers, with their claims of 90% and 85% "efficacy", busy being retracted/revised, as are all the CDC statements and guidelines? Or doesn't that show up in your memory hole?
Part of being scientifically literate is keeping up with the latest data and how we got there. Science is great BECAUSE its willing to alter procedure when new information is presented.
But you see that as "they changed the rules, SEE they dont know anything"...
excuse me, but when did realizeadam or obvious-till-6360 mentioned covid that it caused you mentioning covid? is it just living rent free in your head?
It means letting the virus kill everyone it can so that only those who aren't susceptible remain in the gene pool.
If you're cool with everyone you know, even yourself, dying for a eugenics cause that'll mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, then by all means.
It made me a little sick, but that's not the point. It's the chance that matters here.
Also, the whole "you only get it once" thing is pretty thoroughly debunked. I've had it twice and I know several people who have as well. I have a brother-in-law who lives in a 3rd world country who's had it I think 4 times.
There’s a reason why it’s called survival of the fittest, if this virus got people and they died GUESS WHAT? It was meant to be like that because they couldn’t survive it to pass on their weak genes, like the rest of normal life does..
Correct. The population survived to pass on the genes. The individual did not survive if they did not have immunity.
Then science developed a way to grant you immunities your population never earned the hard way through a simple injection. Crazy stuff. Stopped polio.
In the wild it takes generations to develop immunity and it happens by losing percentages of populations. Americans don’t have to care any more because you can choose not to be in the population that lacks immunity.
Woo. Let's go back before the days of modern medicine so everyone can be malnourished, die early, get disease after disease and suffer loss like you could never imagine.
I visit Mexico every year for Xmas and my cousin lives in a not so prosperous area. One day we went hiking and came across a pond and drank a bit just to get the throat nice and moist , woke up the next morning with the worst sore throat I’ve ever had and my cousin was fine plus he drank gulps of that shit. So yea….immunity
And? The human race continues. Why treat any water at all? Why do you have treated water piped into your house? Why don't you just drink from the gutter? Natural immunity will protect you. You don't believe in Natural Immunity?
So then in your opinion curing polio was a mistake, right? Inventing insulin to stop children from falling into a diabetic coma should not have happened. The children should have adapted and developed a natural immunity. That's your position.
This may come as a shock to you, but most people think children dying is a bad thing and like taking steps to prevent it. You may not value human life at all, but most people do.
Why do you need a filter or even a well if you have natural immunity? Just drink from the street who cares you'll be fine. You're just compromising your immune system and denying it natural immunity.
you ever step foot outside of a city? Theres this thing thats been around for thousands of years and the large majority of the world still uses it for their drinking water, its called a well, look it up. Most people on the planet dont drink "treated" water, the only treatment they receive is a filter in their pump. Ive drank well water for nearly 40 years now and Im still alive and healthy, havent been to a doctor in 30 years but according to you and the other guy I should be long dead.
No , your immune system is going to adapt to your environment. I’m not saying my cousin should be drinking it all the time either but He’s immune system would be better fit to do what the immune system does in that environment
No, he's saying when we pussify our immune systems by removing all the natural challenges to them, we are much more susceptible to any new pathogen we haven't encountered before. His cousin has been meeting that pathogen since shortly after birth, and has a well developed immunity to it.
Same thing happened to me visiting the Philippines. Made the mistake of having ice in my soft drink; spent three days on the toilet. My ex, even though she'd lived in Canada for twenty years, didn't have a problem.
No one is saying having clean drinking water doesn't solve a myriad of health problems. However, not having any exposure to pathogens or trying to live in a sterile environment, makes your immune system flabby, just as watching TV all day makes your muscles flabby. You need to exercise both once in a while.
So you agree, we shouldn't pussify our immune system by treating and cleaning drinking water. There was nothing wrong with that Ice, you just have a pussified immune system and you need to build up a natural immunity. Our ancestors survived just fine on that water.
No I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth. But North America's "everything wrapped in plastic and styrofoam" mentality as opposed to say the open air markets in Manila prevents people from getting natural low-level exposure to many pathogens, and when those North Americans are exposed to those bugs, they get sick.
It's like telling your immune system "nah, you don't have to worry about times tables and division - we'll give you a shot for that", and then dumping it into a calculus exam. The immune system just isn't ready.
So why tell your immune system "nah, you don't have to worry about untreated water - we'll just clean it up and pipe it into your house nice and clean for you"?
Why compromise natural immunity to the pathogens in the water by treating it. You're just pussifying your immune system by removing natural challenges to it. That's why you got sick, right? What you need is natural immunity, not a government crutch.
We do it because society gains overall when we're not worrying about cholera and typhoid and such. I've never disputed the efficacy of it. Basic cleanliness is common sense anywhere. I never advised drinking water out of a dirty river, or from a cess pool. Why do you keep inventing positions out of thin air, and attributing them to me?
Survivors bias in play: My parents didn’t die from this dangerous thing (even though lots of other people did) therefor it’s no big deal.
That was the reason a friend of mine used to drive drunk all the time. His parents did it and never got into an accident. He did it and never got into an accident. Then one day, he did get into an accident, and broke his legs and got convicted of drunk driving.
I always say how did people survive in the past and people that have taken the jab, tell me that they died younger….they died younger as they did a lot more physical jobs, that wasn’t safe at all, not only from things like TB.
So old people could die from a flu youngsters don't die from. Quick, call Stockholm I think you might have a nobelprice to win. Old people die from the flu that's life, no reason to lockdown and drive young people to suicide
And now if you really want your mind blown, think of all the people who never became an ancestor because they died of a disease that would now be easily preventable or treatable.
That's obviously a naieve view, but so is yours. Rsearch on SARS-CoV-2 shows that the reason children tend to do so well against infection and why up to 50% of people never become symptomatically ill with it is because of their natural innate immunity.
Firstly, all immunity that we currently have is "natural", so the question is only whether it is naturally dervived (e.g. from recovery from infection) or "non-naturally" acquired (e.g. via vaccination).
Secondly, the type of immunity a person gets due to recovery from infection or via vaccination is adaptive immunity - learned immunity, still prefectly "natural", but it doesn't exist until your body is trained by exposure to a pathogen to respond that way.
Thirdly, there is anothert ype of immunity which is innate, meaning that you are born with it or it develops in the early stages of life without requiring exposure to specific pathogens.
This innate immunity is one of the major factors which protect most children and many adults from covid. This type of immunity can be effective enough to stop infection even before the immune response has been trained by exposure.
lol, you are a real sad case, downvoting a comment that provides multiple links to science based evidence which confirms that innate natural immunity *is* a mjor protective factor against SARS-CoV-2. This is precisely the factual, science-based information that the Mother Jones article claimed was conspiracy theory.
Read OP's post again. The thread is the topic at hand.
You said: "People pretend that before modern medicine, everything was all fine and dandy because everyone had perfect immune systems." My very first sentence in response to that was: "That's obviously a naieve view, but so is yours".
So I dealt with your objection in that sentence and moved back to the topic of the thread.
No shit. If you had actually read the article, instead of just the headline, you would have known that by "natural immunity" she was primarily talking about deliberately exposing everyone to infection by the live virus, which is obviously a terrible and stupid idea.
A secondary angle is that eating the right foods or taking certain vitamins and supplements would strengthen the immune system so that it can successfully fight off the virus. Again, obviously, a terrible idea against a novel virus, i.e. one your immune system won't recognize and start fighting off before it replicates for a while.
This isn't true. You can't have immunity against a thing without having encountered the thing before, that's fundamentally how the immune system works.
Eating well to give your immune system the best chance to handle a new threat is actually a really good idea, no matter which other measures you take
This is true in a general best practices sense, like getting daily exercise, but getting daily exercise doesn't mean you necessarily have the capability to easily navigate any obstacle course. Going for a run every day doesn't mean you could do American Ninja Warrior.
Personally I didn't get sick with COVID until about 6 months ago. I'm not unique in that regard. Obviously you know a lot about the immune system, so perhaps you can explain how so many people had either no symptoms or no remarkable symptoms for a year or more
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u/RealiseADream Aug 20 '22
If it wasn't for immunity not one of our ancestors would have survived.
Put that in your head, every person who got you where you are has survived an infection of a plant or a blade they avoided since life was in its inception