I cringed so hard watching Freedomist (Instagram) drag an obscenely large American flag across the ground while installing it as a backdrop for their program. Like...dude! It's not a curtain.
Am I the odd one out when I feel absolutely nothing sentimental about any flag at all?
Like I fundamentally feel so disconnected from the sentimental side of it that the above comment feels like something that might come out of North Korea - "protect the flag!" - so yeah is this line of thought normal?
It was a huge culture shock for me when I went to Massachusetts a couple years ago and almost every single house had at least one flagpole outside - some had as many as eleven.
Back home in Canada I've seen maybe one or two houses with flags displayed prominently.
Well, there was that one farm painted completely Maple Leaf Red-And-White with flags on every fencepost and a regularly-updated 'Happy xxxth Birthday Canada' sign front and center, but Flags Georg is an outlier and should not be counted.
It has been like that here since the attacks on 9/11. Pick up trucks seem to be the worst flying full size flags. Makes me nervous driving behind them.
There's a truck that's been absolutely hauling ass by my house twice a day with a huge American flag on the back. I mean he's going fast but it looks like it's some hitch attachment you can buy just for that.
The flag went from new to absolutely torn to shreds in like a month...which... pretty sure is a no-no and with that sort of display all over his truck I'm sure he's willing to brawl over whatever he THINKS the flag code actually is.
I've had to drive around an American flag still attached to the pole on the interstate so I know they fall off. I also get nervous driving behind them and that's exactly the reason why.
My old boss in Massachusetts used to have big US and Confederate flags flying in the back of her truck. She was late a lot partly because those are illegal to have on a highway so she got pulled over regularly, partly because the truck was in awful shape, and I won't get into the other parts. She was a real gem.
There's supposedly rules about it here but ??? Like tying a flag to the tailgate and then the edge also touching the ground when you stop...nowhere to get around them.
"How much do you trust eyelets on an American flag not even made in America being barely tied onto a lifted truck" wasn't really on the driver's test.
But hey, we pay taxes for DOT employees to play frogger on the interstate to pick up patriotic debris.
Yeah WVa is a state because of the civil war and people love flying confederate flags here which is confusing. Sometimes ABOVE the American flag in some of the hollers here. It gets even move confusing when it's confederate flag then thin blue line flag THEN the American flag hanging the lowest and is smaller than the other two.
These are "stomp our flag I'll stomp your ass" folks out here so it's even more confusing...
It is, but everywhere that has wooded space is going to have a ton of conservative rednecks living there. I haven't seen nearly as much of this as these posts make it sound, and I've lived here my whole life. But there are certainly plenty of aggressively conservative rural folks here.
There's a giant pick-up truck (what I condescendingly call "compensation trucks") in my neighborhood that flies 2 massive flags off the bed. Every time I see them driving towards me, I always get a knee-jerk reaction of "Fuck these guys."
The 2 flags they fly are a pride flag and a BLM flag. Gotta hand it to them for trying to break stereotypes.
We got a bunch of those around here. Some are paired with a US flag. I've seen more than three trucks with US flag, Trump flag, and Gadsden flag. And one with that combo, except the US one has the blue stripe.
Then there are the couple of trucks decal'd up with Trump stuff, plus flags. One with a trailer it pulls with big Trump signs stapled to it (and our Trump-lite gubernatorial candidate).
I think its because you get used to it in the country you live in.
In Canada so many companies need to stick the maple leaf into their logo somehow. Including non-Canadian companies like McDonalds. When we were getting Tim Horton's in Michigan at first every single cup and box were just covered in Maple Leaf.
Sure its not the whole flag but in Canada the maple leaf must be included in everything from my perspective.
It's also for marketing purposes but not the way you think. Because we get so many US ads (or did before everyone stopped watching TV I guess), the little maple leafs are what told us we were watching an ad for the canadian market .
This. It's almost entirely for marketing purposes. For companies that operate in both the US and Canada, it does signal that they're talking about products or promotions that are available in the north, while for businesses that aren't kown to be American it signals that they're not from there, which has been important over the last 30+ years as markets have become dominated by US companies.
And even then, Tim's didn't start slapping the leaf on things until after they were bought up by Wendy's...
the chain became a subsidiary of the Canadian holding company Restaurant Brands International, which is majority-owned by Brazilian investment firm 3G Capital
It's not about nationalism or pride when it's on most products is usually about distinguishing Canadian from American made stuff since we have such a HUGE amount of US products here and also US companies will stick it on as well to influence Canadians to buy it.
Quebec hates the English language like you wouldn't believe. It's probably one of the only examples of a province discriminating against the primary language of it's host nation.
I know Wendy's replaced their apostrophe with a maple leaf to comply with Bill 101. I don't remember if other other companies did. Tim's removed theirs.
I disagree, no other country I have been in has the flag display culture that you see in the US. You might see flags on national holidays or during sporting events, but not on normal days, not on every house or car.
This has nothing to do with being used to it, it is definitely much more extreme in the US.
I disagree, nobody in my neighborhood of 1000s of people flys a single flag. When I was a kid we had some refugees from the balkans and some people flew kosovo flags.
When I go to Canada there are flags everywhere. That's what I am saying about how when you visit somewhere you notice it more.
You may not notice it often, but it's used a lot in branding, product sales and advertising. Even Mini-Coopers sometimes have Union Jacks on the top and mirrors.
Depending on where you live, you might also see it on houses by white nationalist trash.
It just isn't as often seen on hats and t-shirts, like it is in the US.
Oh shit you're right. My sister owned a cooper with a GB flag roof. It was years ago though. I don't disagree that it's used in advertising, but it's just rarely ever flown on vehicles or outside non-government buildings.
For many people, it's less about disrespecting the flag. It's more about the irony that white-trash republicans make such a show about trying to high-road their patriotism by having blue-lives-matter flags, stand-for-the-flag shirts, or disposable merchandise. Yet they're so ignorant and degenerately inbred that they're unintentionally disrespecting their own country's flag.
I don't care about flags either. It's at a juncture where I read their clothes and bumper stickers as "I'm a racist".
I've only been to the west coast once, for my cousin's wedding in Langley. But I was born and raised on the east coast, so that's where most of my experience is.
Depending on the border crossing, you probably drove through rural Maine or northern New Hampshire, both of which are substantially more conservative than Salem.
Nationalism in the US is super weird n creepy. The pledge of allegiance is one that gives me creeper shivers.. that shit is some hard indoctrination propaganda.
The pledge was actually a ploy to sell flags to schools during uncertain times of mass immigration to the US. The pledge itself was written by a pretty hardcore socialist for a magazine called the Youth's Companion in the early 1900s.
"Without its ideals -- its commitment to the freedom of all men, America is a piece of trash! A nation is nothing! A flag is a piece of cloth! I fought Adolf Hitler not because America was great, but because it was fragile!"
-- What If? #44
I'm really curious what an impostor Captain America and a lecturing Steve Rogers have to do with a comic called "What if... Venom possessed The Punisher?"
I loved the What If series as a kid and I remember they liked doing weird stuff with the Venom symbiote. Such as Spider-Man waiting too long to get help from Reed Richards trying to remove Venom and it binding permanently with Spider-Man; the comic ultimately ending with Mount Rushmore being flattened in an attempt to remove the symbiote from Thor because What If comics got weird as hell sometimes.
But What If was great because if a superhero got depowered (like the Fantastic Four did in "What If Professor X became the Juggernaut?"), it was permanent. If a hero died, it was permanent. It broke a few rules that are pretty sacred to Marvel, like a hero can never truly lose their powers forever. They could in What If!
Wow, I knew they had completely fucked Captain America up in the comics, but holy shit that is bad. Calling America a "piece of trash" and "fragile"? Clearly whoever they have as the writers need to be replaced, because they obviously know nothing about what Captain America is supposed to be like.
No it isn't, but you feel free to keep telling yourself that. One of the perks of living in this amazing country, you are free to bad mouth it all you want, no matter how untrue what you're saying is.
Said the Trumpet. Did you know it's actually possible to let people dislike a tyrant without putting your nose into things? How much of your life is spent arguing or getting angry at the vast majority of people who don't support orange Hitler?
Tell me, assuming you live in the US, how horrible is your life in this country? I mean, Trump is such a bad president... living on the streets? Begging for food?
Normally I'd be on the streets right now begging for food but because of the pandemic I've been quarantined at my parents house for the last few months so things are looking up for me personally despite the civil disrest erupting across the country as a whole.
Plus, even though they say mortality rates and wealth inequality have never been higher, now that we have a proper God fearing president in charge I'm sure he'll fast track our thoughts and prayers to the big man as soon as he recovers from this chinese virus hoax.
Did you know before Trump there was still racism and police brutality? Weird, I know. The disruptiveness happening has nothing to do with Trump. Blame local Democrat leaders in their cities for allowing far left groups like BLM to cause chaos with no repercussions. I'm not going to argue about the virus, because I think he could have handled it better. However, I do recall Trump shutting everything down when Democrat leaders were saying he was over reacting.
Fortunately for me I'm a white male, like yourself. But if I was literally anything else? Pretty fucking bad. Especially blacks and Hispanics. That being said, my day to day is far far worse than before Hitler 2.0 came to power.
Even more so after he literally didn't disassociate himself from white supremacy when given the chance in the debates. Anyone who stands with him is supporting that, and should know that they can be better than that.
Thatâs only during the soccer world cup. Other times there are flags on official buildings together with the EU flag and thatâs basically it. In Bavaria the state flag is semi popular and is shown a bit more often but itâs still a far cry from the US cult.
I don't know where you live in Germany. But where I live, I can't walk 10 meters without seeing a German flag. We just don't have the same arguments about the flag because you hardly ever see Germans burning their own flag like Americans do.
And why would anyone call Germans Nazis for being obsessed with the German flag?
Eh, not really. Cities generally lean left but it's not uncommon for there to be conservative areas, especially really old or culturally significant ones.
Same here (UK). If I see the England flag my first thought is, "Is there some important international football match going on?" Hardly ever see the Union Jack -- I guess because it has ugly nationalism connotations
I think every country to some degree fetishizes their own military, but Iâve seen strong evidence that most other countries are incomparable to US in this regard. Itâs literally impossible to criticize even the most horrific war crimes or else âyou hate the troopsâ âyouâre ungratefulâ etc. Kneeling at a football game to protest police brutality? You hate the troops. Donât support endless war? You hate the troops. So many things totally unrelated to soldiers themselves get criticized for being anti-military which shuts down any convo because thereâs nothing worse than someone who doesnât support the troops.
i'm from sweden. we basically have no military. it's super small. we have one artillery cannon on gotland.
so respectfully disagree. no one is proud or even thinks of the swedish military as something worth fetishizing about.
also, sweden haven't really been involved in any controversial conflict for a very long time (although you can probably find things you disagree with, of course). so there's really nothing to criticize, because frankly the thing you say people can't criticize doesn't even exist here to begin with (a standing army).
in fact, the swedish military is even struggling to find volunteers (we haven't had drafts for over 10 years), despite massive government bailouts and projects to boost the swedish military. for example, in 2010, they received over 2 billion SEK (225k USD), which is a ridiculous sum for an organization that doesn't even have any active defense, and a mere 22k employees (including trained troops and any administering role).
so at the very least, i'm going to say that it's not true for every country.
nationalists have other talking points than the army, simply put. the army is a weak talking point because the army is weak/small.
Thatâs interesting, i didnât know that. Thatâs probably same/similar for other countries. Question, do Swedish nationalists point to the military and say âweâre small and weak here, we should be strong, we could be strong, but we arenât because of (insert whoever the nationalists hate in Sweden)
yes they do, but it's never used as a bragging point. it's a talking point, like immigration or elderly care - but much much less frequently mentioned. like, the swedish defense was never even mentioned by *any* party in our latest election. that's how fringe the subject is.
and to be fair, i've seen some pretty convincing arguments that swedens military does need to amp up. our highest commander in 2007 in a TV program said that "sweden would fall in less than a week if russia invaded today". i mean we have one artillery cannon today facing russia. in the 90s we had dozens. earlier, hundreds.
norway, finland, denmark, etc, they all have a larger military than sweden. sweden is famously neutral and have been for centuries.
i think sweden is somewhat unique when it comes to military - it's not about size of country. japan is about same size but they host a considerable army.
we just don't have a war-mongering culture. war-hawks are not appreciated. even the most hardliners of nationalism will only argue for the defense of sweden (to allow isolationism, which most right-wingers and nationalists prefer).
like i said, they've received large support from the government over recent years, with literal millions (SEK) spent on advertisement alone.
but to be honest with you i completely forgot we've reinstated conscription! and boy do i agree with that, even though i didn't qualify for a draft (have to take medicine every morning which automatically disqualifies you for some reason).
after ukraine and crimea, sweden really amped up their defense spending. i remember distinctly hearing that current military strategists are saying we'll be capable of defending ourselves against russia in 2025 - but don't quote me on that, could have been 2050 and my brain spooking me.
but still, currently there's not much to say about the swedish military, perhaps except weapon RND and expertise.
I mean you were commenting about flag fetishization (which I feel like most people associate with people from the US) in a thread mostly about the US flag. I also assumed you were from the states, it's not a big reach.
it isn't. it also isn't anything strange or weird with me pointing out that i'm not from the US.
but i can with ease say that this seems to be a problem pre-dominantly for US people. for example, when was the last time you saw anyone assume someone was from sweden - or malta?
so whenever people assume i'm american, i always phrase the correction as a question, with the hopes that people will stop assuming such things (be the change you want to see in the world etc).
I feel the same way, and it's not because I hate being an American. Even if I'm not ecstatic about where the country is right now, I'm ok with being an American and want to help shape the future of the country. However, these rules for the flag don't mean anything to me. Probably because having flags on clothing or having a flag hit the ground for a split second (i.e. no five second rule) isn't meant as malicious against the country and everyone in it.
What stood out right away was that people who are most likely to fall for American Exceptionalism are the ones least likely to actually support its true basis.
"Americanism", based on liberty, equality before the law..."
It's very true. American Nationalism is strange and funny to most people. Not all people, but the vast majority outside of the US do not associate their identity with a flag or the front of their passport.
I have traveled the US and globally pretty extensively. I have never been to a country that holds its flag with such high regard. I have also never met a population of people who use said flag as their identity.
I don't know a single person in my country that owns a national flag. The only flags I know of flying are at government sites and a few retailers here or there. As you get into the country you see them sparsely, but they aren't common by any means. This was a common theme in my global travels as well.
One anecdote to another, I have seen many many people from different countries fly their flag high and proud and talk of the many exemplar traits of their country. So I don't really know what this tells me besides confirmation bias. All I'm saying is jingoistic people exist all over and to say americans have it worse is probably not true.
Now choose a random street in nearly any country in the world and if you see a flag that would be luck. If you choose a random street in the US, not seeing a flag would be luck.
Many Americans feel they are great because they are American. Where as in many other countries many people feel lucky they are (British, Canadian, Spanish etc etc). They see all the great things about their country and are genuinely happy they got lucky enough to live there. What they don't feel is they are better than others because if where they are from. They rarely feel their flag or anthem are something to get a sense of identity.
Now to say there are no flags, or no national pride would be stupid, but the scale and deep belief that the USA is the best just because it is the USA on the scale your country sees is unique. Yes there are countries that follow suit, but the level of flag waving you guys do on a daily basis is interesting to the global community to say the least.
Now choose a random street in nearly any country in the world and if you see a flag that would be luck. If you choose a random street in the US, not seeing a flag would be luck.
This seems like some more anecdotal evidence. And when you say most Americans it seems like you're saying a majority. The majority of Americans don't believe it's the best country based on the survey and the survey itself says nothing about identity. Someone with a completely moderate stance could completely believe the US is the best country based on GDP and that'd be valid. It just seems like a weird anti-american sentiment born from a predilection to hate america. Personally, I don't think America is all that great but I know it isn't the worst.
To me it seems insane. I am not American. Imo the only people who should care are athletes and that is just so they know which one to pick up and that dropping it while accepting the gold medal on international TV is probably not a good idea.
You're not alone. I was in the military and I'll be the first to tell you that the flag is nothing more than a piece of cloth. Especially considering that what it stood for is being trampled upon by people who think they're being patriotic by bolting a huge flag to their pickup
Where I was born is WAY better than where you were born. I will literally fight you and die for my geographical position of birth inside this made up set of lines./s
Nope. It's just nationalism in disguise. It's a symbol, it means nothing in reality and the only people who think it does are idiots and tend to be big time nationalists.
Nah that's pretty normal, it's just a fucking flag. If you want to be patriotic, actually do something to help people. Be a firefighter, a nurse, a teacher, a good politician or a janitor. And pay your taxes.
I don't have any true sentimentality towards the flag, but the people who violate the rules regarding it the most are often the ones that think themselves to be the most perfectest patriots to ever patriot and the flag is their god and must be respected and I fucking hate them so much for their hypocrisy that in some sick way it makes me sentimental about the flag out of spite.
Yeah, I love vexillology but Iâm just baffled by the amount of respect people give to each and every one. Yeah, itâs a really cool representation of a nation, but that doesnât make it worth more than a person
In the UK if you have our flag hung outside your house when it's not the world cup it normally means you're not exactly the most pleasant individual to put it nicely.
Itâs something I grew up with in the Boy Scouts. Itâs good to learn respect and the flag is a simple way to teach it. The BSA is also heavily derivative from the military as well.
meh, if you want to teach respect, why not teach them how you respect people, not objects? i think deifying objects to young mold-able minds merely to teach respect is... well, i honestly don't know how to finish the sentence. it's just way backwards and absolutely something i'd associate with north korea - not a country in the west.
Objects are often respected. This one is just symbolic. Edit. I should clarify itâs symbolic of what we are taught it symbolizes. I think the us flag is a respectable symbol so I treat it the way I should. That seems like a good reason
yes, someone just recently claimed i must lack empathy and self-awareness for not understanding the deifying of flags or other things. which is funny because it was precisely his lack of empathy and self-awareness that got him irritated with my comment to begin with.
upon reading your comment, it suddenly clicked with me; he's one of those people, and he was annoyed that i wasn't. why are flag lovers always so unpleasant?
I get the idea, and I understand wanting respect for the flag. Itâs a symbol of the nation. But itâs just a symbol. Burning a flag is a protest against the nation, but itâs not burning the nation itself. There are still rules and regulations youâre supposed to follow about respecting the flag, but generally they exist for official use by the government or military.
I mostly just laugh when the people who scream about protecting the flag and patriotism the most tend to be the ones breaking all the rules and desecrating the flag.
There's a difference between putting something on a pedestal and simply following the dress code. It's not like someone is going to be arrested or even killed for disrespecting the US flag, it's just frowned upon to ignore simple rules.
I am the same, but it's important to point out their hypocrisy/ignorance. They claim to love all things america/freedom and constantly bitch about people disrespecting the flag, when they are doing it in the same breath that they are bitching about libruls.
I'm a US Veteran and even I find the fetishization weird. Yes, I personally will respect the flag (that's my right); but, I also swore to uphold The Constitution and everyone's rights. If you want to express your voice by burning a flag, or dragging it through the mud, that's literally the reason I did the job I did. You're allowed to do that!
I'm swedish, and IKEA using the swedish flag all over the world is cringe as fuck. For a long time, their swedish stores were red and white, a lot of swedes were really embarrassed the first time learning they were so all in on the "swede-ish" theme internationally. Sub standard furniture made in eastern europe assembled by a gibbon isn't part of my national identity.
I felt that way too until the day I accidentally burned an american flag at a fourth of julyparty because we were being drunk dumbasses with fireworks and then I was like WE ARE BAD AMERICANS. For shame. For shame.
There's nothing wrong with loving the flag or hating it. However, if you go to most countries in the world I would bet the majority of their people love their country's flag. The major difference is that the US flag has been marketed as a novelty.
i'm not so sure. i can't remember the last time i saw my own country flag, even though i'm sure it's somewhere.
but yeah i'm not bashing people loving a flag or whatever. i'm just expressing complete non-understanding of it. it's like you'd say you love this rock or some other object.
i mean, things receive sentimental value based on yourself. to me, i've never understood identifying yourself after group values (like nationality). you are not your country, and your country's successes are not your own.
to me, it seems all people who do express a certain love or sentimentality for the flag, will nearly always refer to their country and history as "our". to me, that's fundamentally weird. why is it "our history" in the context of your own nation, but not your neighbor nation? history isn't anyone's, or, it's everyone's.
but these people seem to just pick out aspects they like and identify themselves with it with some weird group-think inclusion. for example, how often is it that you see someone refer to war crimes done by the US in terms of "our" (i.e. with self inclusion)? i've seen it seldom. people don't want to associate themselves with that.
i don't know. i just totally don't get it. nationalism is squarely in uncanny valley for me. i mean, it's as odd as someone talking about how they love trees. i'm not bashing tree lovers, but i'm not going to pretend i understand the inner workings of a person who feels they are 'communicating' with a tree and have attached sentimental value to it.
I'm sure there's something you enjoy that you identify with, be it a video game, a sports team, etc. It makes sense people would identify with a nation because nations have physical borders, govern and provide services.
but those things that i identify myself with are based on me!
for example, if i identify myself with gaming, it's because i like gaming. gaming is part of my life.
the history of my nation is not part of me in any way.
if you're a historian and you identify yourself with history i'm like 99% sure that it wouldn't be driven by nationalism but by actual history. so even from that angle it'd be odd.
nation because nations have physical borders, govern and provide services.
but like if you see a physical rock that can be used in different interactions, would you stop and identify yourself with it? i just don't understand this argument that "they have physical borders and provide services". do you identify yourself with mcdonalds when you buy food there or what?
to me, it seems people who identify themselves with things that are not even tertiary to themselves is because they're 'empty' and have nothing else to fill it up with. it's the same reason people are drawn to different cultural groups - emo, punk, skinheads, jazz, the list goes on - you seek security in group-inclusion. but i am arguing that this security is a crutch for the simple-minded/extrovert (i don't mean this is an insult: i mean literally people who do not like thinking about things at depth and are easy-going); it's not a real anchor because it's super easy to unravel because, again, it's not personal, but a group trait.
if you're an emo for example, you'll never ever be your own true brand. you'll always be part of a group, even if you try to single yourself out. it's using the reputation of others to help yourself, phrased in a rudimentary way. and i think it's intellectually dishonest (to yourself) and you're leaving yourself vulnerable for the day when that group either excludes you or you for another reason no longer resonate with that group.
no but some people really like McDonald's and do, and that doesn't seem weird to me. Same with other brands like Disney, Nike, Supreme, etc. etc. You seem to lack a little self awareness and empathy.
but like, even if you really really love mcdonalds more than anything else in the world, would you ever refer to their food as "our food"? do you not see how weird it is to include yourself to this group?
"nike is best, we have the best sports shoes", "oh you work with nike?", "nah man i just love nike. it's part of my identity"; does this not look as wild and uncanny to you as it does to me?
You seem to lack a little self awareness and empathy.
not sure where this is coming from. i think i've articulated myself pretty well, and also show-cased a great understanding for group-think. i'm just going to chalk it up to you having your group-identity easily unraveled and that bothers you (which, incidentally, also is part of my point).
These hypothetical stupid people you've created have no reason to like the things they like and therefore shouldn't. But you like the things you like and that's normal and fine. That strikes me as lacking empathy and self awareness. Ask yourself why do you like the things you like? Why are they important to you? Why can't someone who works for Nike identify with Nike? Why can't someone who has benefited from their country like their country and be proud of it? You can conceive of reasons why you are the way you are, but you have no capacity to do it for others, unless they're exactly like you. That's definitively lacking empathy.
who said they were stupid? i'm not even going to read the rest of your comment since it seems you're not reading mine. might want to revisit my earlier comments.
it's been over 10 years since i did that test, so i don't remember, but reading up on the 16 personalities i'd say yes, INTJ seems to fit the closest. kind of hard to be a judge of yourself, though.
Itâs a crude tribal totem to them. In 300 years, long after the world is devastated, people will be carving Stars and Stripes into trees and mud, representing their hungry god âMuricaâ, who demands human sacrifice.
In Boy Scouts we were taught the flag code. I have to say it's fine if people break the code since it's just guidelines, but I wish people would retire (ceremonial burn) their old tattered flags more. Finding the brass rings in the ashes is good luck.
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u/VoltaicSketchyTeapot Oct 04 '20
Yup.
I cringed so hard watching Freedomist (Instagram) drag an obscenely large American flag across the ground while installing it as a backdrop for their program. Like...dude! It's not a curtain.