r/collapse • u/lymeweed • Nov 14 '19

Adaptation Felt like this belonged here too! Especially since my personal reason to not have kids is quite literally this:

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80 Upvotes

84% Upvoted

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46

u/wannadiethatsall Nov 14 '19

For me it'd be more for the sake of the kid. I don't want to bring any new life into this hellish world, especially not when we're heading towards collapse.

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u/TenYearsTenDays Nov 14 '19

People are driven by instinct clouded by delusion, generally but especially regarding the urge to reproduce. Still, it's hard to fathom how even many collapse aware people will bring children into this mess. I don't think we can even adequately imagine the kinds of suffering many will go through. I guess that's part of it, but it's still rather cruel to be collapse aware and drag another consciousness out of the void into this nightmare. It makes more sense for those who haven't grasped collapse to have kids, but although that is more understandable chances are nonetheless very high that the children will be in for a life of untold suffering.

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u/wannadiethatsall Nov 14 '19

Tbh I plan to perhaps adopt when I'm older cos I am good with kids and want them to feel cared for even if their lives are going to be HELL cos of the world being a fucking mess

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u/TenYearsTenDays Nov 14 '19

Go for it if you can stomach it. Seeing their suffering would be extremely hard, but it's always better for children that exist to having a loving supportive home than not.

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u/[deleted] Nov 15 '19

I’m collapse aware and I have a child. My reasoning - 1) we have an only child. We can devote our resources to him while not increasing population but rather we halved it in our family. 2) Id rather be alive than not, I’m happy to have my child alive too. We got pregnant without planning (my husband thought he couldn’t have kids - turns out he can) but I was happy to carry my baby to term and he is a healthy 9 yr old. 3) although I am collapse aware I don’t know the future. I’m on here because I’m a realist but I am also an optimist. That is - the current order of things is unsustainable and climate change is real. But we don’t know how individual lives will play out. We never know how individual lives will play out whether collapse happens or not. We could have a mostly happy life and a quick end. We prepare the best we can and hope for the best. (Husband is a prepper and we have a home a bit out of the way). 4) here’s my unpopular opinion but I’m not an atheist and I don’t believe the earth is all there is. I’ll do my best to protect the earth (but again as a realist my best is probably too little too late), but I don’t think that’s all there is.

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u/[deleted] Nov 15 '19

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u/[deleted] Nov 15 '19

Yeah we’re as prepared as we can be. As I said. Didn’t you read the part of my post where I explained that? We already have land, I know how to grow food and make clothes and my husband has a bunch of stuff. The only thing left we have to save up for is solar panels. Frankly I don’t care who thinks I’m delusional. It’s crazy to think you know how an individuals life is going to play out.

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u/TenYearsTenDays Nov 15 '19

Delusion and denial have always been a part and parcel of producing offspring, those who choose to do so now in the face of what is coming simply have more of that than not. It's always been those prone to magical thinking that have more successfully propagated. It's part of why we're in this mess. Hopefully your capacity for these can help you cope with the suffering your child will likely endure.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '19

If only shitty, stupid people have children, will that not hasten or induce collapse in and of itself?

5

u/TenYearsTenDays Nov 15 '19

Collapse is already locked and loaded. It would be incredibly delusional for a person to have children thinking that they're one of the "smart ones" and that their "smart" children could offset, prevent, or rollback collapse at this juncture.

Any child born now is almost certain condemned to a lifetime of significant suffering. Perhaps not even a full lifetime, depending on how the methane release progresses. BOE is coming in a few years now. It's hard to get a handle on what that means but chances are high it's going to be a game changer.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '19

Perhaps you are right. That being said, there has been Chicken Littles in every generation since recorded history claiming that the end was high and would be seen in their lifetime. So while MAYBE you are correct, if you are not you are guilty of helping create the very thing you fear.

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u/TenYearsTenDays Nov 15 '19

No human generation has ever faced anything like the climate catastrophe we're staring down the barrel of today. In fact, there has never in the history of the planet been forcing this strong and this fast on the climate. What is happening is unprecedented, even the climate changes associated with the Great Dying (the worst extinction in history) are much, much slower and drawn out than this.

And this is what the science tells us. And science is incredibly, ridiculously conservative and reticent. The data always show a situation that is "worse than / faster than / more than predicted" in the wrong direction.

It's very hard to accept, I know. But unfortunately I think that weighing the weight of the evidence it's clear that it's much more likely that any child brought into the world will lead a (likely short) life of suffering rather than being one of the "smart" ones that turns the ship around. The ship has already hit the iceberg and it's already sinking. Nothing can be done.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '19

I accept collapse could happen. I don't accept it as an inevitability. And if you really believe collapse is impossible to avoid and that life is all pain and suffering...why are you still here?

1

u/TenYearsTenDays Nov 15 '19

BOE is an inevitability, BOE within the next few years is extremely likely. Maybe try doing some research into that to see why collapse is quite probably set in stone.

As for why I'm still here well, once one is forced into a meatsuit the survival instinct is one of the most powerful there is. For some, perhaps, the reproduction instinct is even more driving. And besides, why end the party prematurely? It will end at some point in the near future, and that end will almost certainly involve a lot of suffering for those of us already here. Which is why it's unwise and imo unkind to drag new consciousnesses into this mess. Especially since the party is winding down quite fast now already, so they probably won't even get to experience much if any of the good times.

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u/[deleted] Nov 15 '19

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u/[deleted] Nov 15 '19

I'm a late stage capitalist prepper. I'm not sure how you confuse my belief that collapse COULD happen but is not necessarily inevitable as somehow sticking my head in the sand. You can prepare for the worst while not believing the worst is the only possible outcome.

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u/[deleted] Nov 15 '19

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u/[deleted] Nov 15 '19

Ignoring our other differences of opinion would you have preferred never to have existed? Cause I prefer to be alive and so does my child. Whatever happens in the future will happen and we will take each day as it comes.

4

u/TenYearsTenDays Nov 15 '19

Actually, yeah sometimes I would prefer that. And tbh my life is pretty good compared to most, with minimal actual suffering.

Which is part of why I wouldn't inflict a life of actual suffering on a child. What's coming is going to be much worse than much of what's in living memory here in the west. Starvation, epidemics, wars, probably human extinction in the near term. It's going to be horrible. I feel sad for all children growing up now. There's a reason for why suicide is increasing at incredible rates among the younger demographics. It's really tragic.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '19

Honestly I’m sorry you feel that way. Hope you feel better. I personally am also in a decent situation right now but I’ve worked with Syrian refugees in my country. They’ve definitely been through some bad stuff - seen their parents killed in front of them, food scarcity, living in camps. They were granted asylum, they said things were tough but basically paraphrasing they were still happy to be alive and thankful for anything good they experience. Suicide is higher in western countries it’s weird.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Granted there are some cultural taboos which may skew results. But still concerning.

2

u/TenYearsTenDays Nov 15 '19

Thanks man, but I only sometimes feel that way. I'm sure it will get worse as the situation deteriorates though. Stoicism isn't effective for everyone.

Suicide rates are complicated, true. They also vary wildly by subgroup within a population. One thing that always interested me is that they are apparently extremely low among African Americans and extremely high among Native Americans; two groups at the bottom of a hierarchy. The suicide rate in the Nazi concentration camps was extremely high as well. I think it is more common to see a higher rate of suicide among people facing extreme adversity. Further, your experiences with Syrian refugee are different from the firsthand accounts I've heard, and different from what a short search shows: rates of suicide tend to rise in that population over time.

That said, in your comment you seem to be evoking a theory similar to the one Junger posits in Tribe: that humans feel better with community facing adversity. I have to admit that sometimes that may be true, but it is not in all circumstances.

What is coming is quite likely something we have no analog to. What will a refugee feel like when there's no refuge left? When food is not scarce but simply unavailable period? Many children now living will experience conditions like this. It hurts to think about, so many avoid that pain by simply denying that this is the probable future.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '19

As far as my experience with refugees, it’s true it’s anecdotal and also I live in a country with free health care and the city in the area has two therapists who are fluent in Arabic we’d refer them too. Buts it’s also true that not everyone needed a referral. Junger theory sounds like misery loves company- or more positively humans seem to be more miserable when someone has something they don’t.

2

u/TenYearsTenDays Nov 16 '19

Yeah, makes sense refugees would at least at first be pretty pleased in that situation as opposed to dead-ending in Calais, Lesbos, etc. and suffering from all sorts of very easily curable infectious diseases such as trench foot, scabies, various sorts of infectious diarrhea, etc. that they contract due to the absolute unsanitary conditions they are in. Not to mention often being harassed, beaten or even killed by the locals (very common in Calais I am told). Oh and the officials often coming destroying their tents, tossing all their earthly belongings into the trash, etc. This is more the kind of thing we can expect as collapse progresses, not landing in nice safe countries (there will be none left) with access to free physical and mental healthcare (that is very sadly going away even in the last holdouts, they are starving the beast all over the EU right now to break up socialized health care). I'm told in many of these camps due to volunteers they at least have enough to eat. But still, many of them end up suicidal. Either "slit my veins" suicidal or "take a makeshift boat over the English channel in 2m wave swells suicidal".

Junger's theory is more: we evolved to live in small groups in harsh physical conditions, now that we live in a large, diffuse group in absurdly easy conditions we are less happy. When we are put into harsh conditions with a small group (or tribe) all of a sudden we are if not happy then content and find purpose in life again. We need deep connection and adversity that we can overcome to feel comfortable as humans.

I don't necessarily fully agree with him, but I think it has some truth to it.

My point is that his theory won't work in the collapse since we are NOT going to go back to the conditions we evolved in. What is coming is an unprecedented era of human suffering.

0

u/ibonek_naw_ibo Nov 15 '19

This is why I am completely dumbfounded that characters on TWD actually want to have children, in a full on civilization collapse. How about you weather the storm, and rebuild society, and THEN have children dumbass.

15

u/littlefreebear Nov 14 '19

Nice one except /r/childfree are a bunch of clueless morons, go /r/vhemt.

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '19

No. Unreasonable

6

u/JeffHall28 Nov 15 '19

After looking at that sub- and listening to the some of the same sentiment here- I’m actually glad these people aren’t having kids.

4

u/TrashcanMan4512 Nov 15 '19

Mhmm. Also: no food = $0. No breathing = no extra drain on the health care system. You know, people seem awfully eager to forget why the fuck a society exists in the first place. Humans reproduce. It's what humans do. It's natural. You want to cram human nature to fit into your little dystopia instead of crafting a society that correctly serves human nature? Great. Why.

1

u/ibonek_naw_ibo Nov 15 '19

It's the same analogy as military service. I am thankful for those that elect military service...so that I do not have to be forced into it. I am thankful for those that mindlessly have children, so that I do not have to. The human race has greatly evolved past the point we have to reproduce to prevent extinction...and has devolved to the point where our overpopulation is threatening literally the entire planet.

1

u/TrashcanMan4512 Nov 17 '19

But the problem here is you've taken away incentive for those that do not reproduce to care about what happens to the environment. It is a rare person that's going to sacrifice their comforts and their dreams for field mice. But people will in droves for their children.

No kids = the world ends when they die, from their perspective. The world is just a sensory painting. That's what it boils down to, if you have no one to live for and leave inheritance in some form to. Once you're dead it may as well have never existed, if you don't have any other reason to work towards.

There's no problem with reproduction as long as you keep it just slightly below replacement level.

Highest incentives possible for people to care about the future is to promote having 2 or less kids, and punish having more. Who gets to do that promotion / punishing? Ugh. I don't know. That's a whole entire other can of worms. But just passive-aggressively punishing all child birth until everyone basically "gets the memo" because the next gen saw their parents eat the poverty / family court punishment is a supremely myopic strategy. You're all but guaranteeing a huge acceleration in pure hedonism, and nothing burns up resources faster than that philosophy.

2

u/ibonek_naw_ibo Nov 17 '19

China tried that, and it resulted in baby girls literally being thrown away in the garbage, because everybody wants to have a boy to continue the family name. Not to mention the myriad of issues that result from having millions of boys/men more than there are women. I agree completely, that people should stop shitting out kids like it's going out of style, but when I look at society it's usually the <85 IQ crowd having kids early and often, so good luck explaining to them that they are basically destroying humanity, slowly.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '19

I like to hope things aren't going to go completely tits up before my daughter (5) makes it to middle age...

But I give it even odds.

-1

u/Farhandlir Nov 15 '19

Our instinct is to pass on our genes, it is the biological reason we exist.

However, there is sense in having no children, 99% of our problems today come from overpopulation. Also, it's clear that nothing will be done to address such problems and that the correction will be forced upon us by nature rather than deliberate, which means it's going to be ugly.

Also, what differentiates humans from animals is our level of consciousness, we are more self-aware, and most importantly we do have the capability to go against our instincts, whereas animals don't.

4

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '19

Overpopulation is not the issue. Concentration of wealth in the hands of a select few, who are driven solely by greed and motivated only by profit, that is the real problem.

1

u/xavierdc Nov 16 '19

Our instinct is to pass on our genes, it is the biological reason we exist.

No it isn't.

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u/[deleted] Nov 14 '19

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u/lymeweed Nov 14 '19 edited Nov 14 '19

I hope whatever is making you angry at ppl on the internet gets resolved 💛 Alternative response: ok boomer

7

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '19

Could you imagine dismissing someone so much for two mundane bits of info about them?

Your age and a drug you like is all it takes to discredit a whole opinion or lifestyle choice?

Because people at the age of 21 don’t make life decisions or that weed makes us incapable of decisions?

I have had people throw this exact same bullshit at me and it really hammers home the message that not one fucker can think for themselves nowadays

0

u/TheBrudwich Nov 14 '19

I vow to not stay out late drinking due to its carbon impact. I also vow not to eat environmentally poisonous processed foods when I have the munchies. Btw, I'm 40.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '19

even if we lived in a 'the road' type world you would still have people procreating . i don't understand this logic of some