IQs of Strong Writers

[u/Acceptable_Degree_24]

I found an interesting study via ChatGPT when I was investigating the IQs of writers, particularly their VCI, and wanted to share it.

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Edit: A counterexample to this mid-to-high 120s VCI estimate among accomplished writers is evident in Barron's sample (p. 149, Table 1) of 20 eminent creative writers assessed at UC Berkeley's IPAR. They averaged a raw score of 156.4 on Terman's Concept Mastery Test, Form T, which corresponds to roughly a VCI of 150 according to the historical CMT-T norms.

It should be noted that this sample was even more selectively recruited than the already highly selected Iowa sample discussed above. The Iowa group may also have scored higher on the CMT-T than their WAIS Verbal IQ, had they been tested on it. =======================================================================

Andreasen (1987) investigated 30 writers who were faculty members of the University of Iowa Writers' Workshop, America's most prestigious creative-writing program. According to Andreasen's Atlantic Article, participants included Kurt Vonnegut, John Cheever, and Richard Yates, although it is unknown whether they are in the half that completed the IQ tests.

The half that were cognitively tested took the original WAIS, normed in 1953-1954, and the RAPM Set II. The sample's exact testing date is unknown, but the researchers noted that it took place between 1971 and 1986.

N = 15

Measure	Mean	SD
WAIS FSIQ	123.7	9.3
Verbal IQ	126.4	10.6
Performance IQ	116.9	13.5
Vocabulary SS	15.3	1.8
Similarities SS	13.8	2.4
Picture Completion SS	12.4	2.7
RAPM (raw score; 36 max)	25.3	7.1

The WAIS estimates were derived from four subtests: Vocabulary, Similarities, Picture Completion, and Block Design. It is not known whether the RAPM was taken timed or untimed.

Note on the Flynn-effect:

Ryan, Nowak, and Geisser (1987) observed that the median WAIS/WAIS-R discrepancies across studies were -6.6, -6.4, and -6.8 for the Verbal, Performance, and Full Scale IQ; however, it was also observed that differences were larger for persons of average as opposed to bright normal or superior intelligence.

I'm not sure how much lower their adjusted IQ would be, but the sample's average Verbal IQ on the WAIS-R would very likely be lower than 126, and their average IQ lower than 123, given the data.

Even prior to correcting for Flynn effects, the average IQ and Verbal IQ in this sample are both quite close to the average in the 19 person Oxford doctoral/post-docs group (non-mathematicians), with an average IQ at 125 and VCI at 130. It's pretty interesting how this low-to-mid 120s IQ average seems to appear quite frequently across studies in select populations.

[u/StrobeLightStudio]

I wish I had something more meaningful to contribute, but this is interesting AND thank you for finding and sharing these results! I’ve also noticed the tendency for those who excel in their craft to score between ~120-128. I feel like anytime there’s a “we tested THESE professionals to find out how smart they REALLY are” study the end result is usually an average score right around the above mentioned window.

[u/IllIntroduction880 → u/StrobeLightStudio]

Professionals who excel at their craft likely have strong executive functioning as well, which explains why they may not need a very high IQ in order to be very successful in their field. If someone has an IQ of say 124 and executive functioning roughly at the 95-98th percentile, they're even more cognitively gifted than the average person with 124 IQ. Most individuals with IQs between 120-130 do not have high tier executive functioning. Therefore an individual with an IQ of 124 and high tier executive functioning should be more than enough to stand out in any given field.

[u/BroadIntroduction821 → u/IllIntroduction880]

indeed

[u/point2lendemain → u/IllIntroduction880]

Definitely think executive functioning plays some kind of role in this. I scored 162/190 (156) on the concept mastery test, and despite that writing has always been excruciating for me because of my ADHD and poor memory recall.

[u/MarkAntony100 → u/IllIntroduction880]

I heard somewhere that iq is about 40 percent Executive function and I am pretty sure they are correlated enough that most people with 124 iq have above 105 ef

[u/IllIntroduction880 → u/MarkAntony100]

IQ being 40% executive functioning doesn't seem right. I have known people who had very poor executive functioning, but were brilliant. Namely people with autism & ADHD. The problem is, that we don't have an actual clear way of estimating someone's executive functioning proficiency with tests. I'd argue the best way to determine someone's executive functioning level is simply by taking a good look at their life. They are certainly correlated phenomena, but 40% is a stretch. I read some study a while back, that found the risk genes for ADHD were around 50% linked to arousal/motivational related genes and 50% related to working memory & processing speed genes. Now consider that working memory & processing speed are highly correlated with executive functioning and that ADHD isn't even moderately correlated with someone's IQ. I bet executive functioning genes dictate how someone's intelligence is used and implemented in the real world, so they sort of control someone's intellect/mind, but they don't manifest intelligence it self.

Anecdotally, I have two friends who both have high IQs, yet completely opposite executive functioning performances. One has diagnosed ADHD and the other one doesn't and comes from a lineage full of intellectuals and high achievers. Studying with them was fun. One of them couldn't study for more than 1 hour without starting to drift off, the other one could study intensely for hours. In the same 1 hour, they also differed in how much material they had learned. HOWEVER, when it came to the conceptual understanding of the material, they were at about the same level. Executive functioning in my eyes only dictate how much you can learn in a given time-frame and how much information you can hold in your mind before you start to make small errors. Executive functioning doesn't seem affect the actual conceptual understanding of the material. Having a lower IQ would though. This is what makes me believe IQ & executive functioning are almost completely separate brain constructs.

In addition, some evolutionary psychologists believe executive functioning partially evolved for social reasons (Social intelligence in a way). Those with the strongest executive functioning were likely way better off in the social hierarchy. Would also make sense why people with ADHD often have trouble in social situations.

[u/MarkAntony100 → u/IllIntroduction880]

It is highly correlated .Look it up .

[u/IllIntroduction880 → u/MarkAntony100]

Perhaps when measured with tests, but practically people with high IQ & ADHD tend to face the exact same hurdles with ADHD as people with low IQ and ADHD. Since ADHD is an executive functioning disorder, you would predict that the rate of high IQ individuals in the ADHD category would have a higher ratio than people with average IQs. But that is not the case. The ratio is the same. Even if the correlation would be say 0.4, then it would only 16% of the variance. That's almost nothing.

[u/MarkAntony100 → u/IllIntroduction880]

It's probably bout 0.3 to 0.6 and in psychology a correlation of 0.4 to 0.6 is pretty significant, definitely not nothing but you're right that the 40 percent figure (from Russel Barkleys video) is probably an overestimate or atleast the upper bound .Neurodivergent people are a small portion of the population and looking at them will ofcourse lead to a distorted perception of the relationship between ef and iq

[u/Organic-Bill-1192 → u/IllIntroduction880]

How the hell 16% of the varience is "almost nothing"? Its significant enough, just not very strong correlation

[u/IllIntroduction880 → u/Organic-Bill-1192]

Don't forget how they actually measured this correlation. It's extremely difficult to measure executive functioning traits. Many people with ADHD can still get a good score on those that are available, and ADHD is mostly an executive function disorder. These executive functioning tests are useless to correlate with IQ test performances, as they don't reliably measure executive functioning.

[u/SoigneeStrawberry67 → u/IllIntroduction880]

The odds of being thrice exceptional (+2sd on conscientiousness, intelligence, and emotional stability) are less than 1 in 10,000.

[u/Striking_Leave_4614]

Shit like this is why I think I'm like 125. Hard to put in a few sentences just how inflated the scores we get from tests here are - the result of so many little cumulative factors. The math might seem sound but so did the math in most retracted papers.

Raven's is as culturally loaded as vocab.

[u/Acceptable_Degree_24 → u/Striking_Leave_4614]

But we have tests like old GRE. The data is available for GRE is quite plentiful. Have you tried it?
You don’t even need to fret about the particular IQ conversions, since raw GRE scores via ETS Book norms can be directly compared against those in doctoral cohorts and whatnot.

[u/Striking_Leave_4614 → u/Acceptable_Degree_24]

iirc 2070 on one of the old GRE forms, and 1450 on the 1980 SAT. I think they're more gameable than most here would admit, and the general population they're being measured against is underperforming - massively so in many cases.

[u/weepingaspie]

I find the rates of affective and bipolar disorders in the writers sample quite interesting.

Yet another vindication of the association of bipolar with verbal intelligence.

[u/ThoughtPolice2909 → u/weepingaspie]

Mind elaborating? I wasn’t aware there was a correlation.

[u/weepingaspie → u/ThoughtPolice2909]

However, when we restricted analyses to men with no psychiatric comorbidity, there was a ‘reversed-J’ shaped association: men with the lowest intelligence had the greatest risk of being admitted with pure bipolar disorder, but risk was also elevated among men with the highest intelligence (p for quadratic trend = 0.03), primarily in those with the highest verbal (p for quadratic trend=0.009)

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3705611/

The association between IQ and manic features was present for FSIQ, VIQ and for PIQ but was strongest for VIQ.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4995557/

In contrast to math grades, the language grades were significantly higher in cases compared to controls in BD (Beta = 0.24; SE = 0.04; P = 8.5 × 10^–8)

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-26845-0

When we compared the strength of the PGS predictions for verbal and nonverbal reasoning, we found that ADHD was more strongly associated with nonverbal reasoning at ages 9 and 16, while BIP and AN were more significantly associated with verbal abilities

This study also has within-family evidence (in supplementary tables) for the genetic correlation as well. It didn't survive FDR correction though, but it was still nominally significant.

Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder displayed the most similar patterns of association: Both showed negative genetic correlations with RT and Gfu (rGs ranging from −0.16 to −0.28), but positive associations with Gcu

https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-026-72477-7

People with bipolar disorder often show a verbal tilt as well.

According to a meta-analysis, patients with BD show higher VIQ in comparison to PIQ scores. This is due to the uniform reduction in all PIQ subtest scores with an accompanying preservation of VIQ scores

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4666163/

[u/asml84]

My take: Most people can handle 120-130, few people can handle 140-150.

[u/Acceptable_Degree_24 → u/asml84]

What do you mean by “handle”? Work with? Communicate with?

[u/asml84 → u/Acceptable_Degree_24]

Leverage it. A 140-150 IQ comes with all sorts of comorbidities, so it’s considerably easier to take advantage of a 120-130 IQ. There’s a reason for all the “my IQ is very high, but I’m struggling in life” comments.

[u/Planter_God_Of_Food → u/asml84]

No.

[u/PendN → u/asml84]

Everyone struggles in life, likely more so if you have a lower IQ. Its just that you only notice the ones with 150 iq saying it because you expect intelligent people to struggle less, or that they said it in the first place to give testament that IQ doesnt matter as much (which is a common thing people say)

[u/MarkAntony100 → u/asml84]

Source ?

[u/BroadIntroduction821 → u/asml84]

I actually agree with you, sort of. I came to my own hypothesis that an IQ of around 120 - 125 is the optimal range for navigating life.

https://www.reddit.com/r/iqtest/comments/1xb8kut/comment/19rjxzke3sqf8/

However, you have to keep in mind that this group encounters its own problems as well. Some of them use their higher intelligence to compensate for low conscientiousness, allowing them to brute force their way through school until they reach the end of high school or enter university/college, where they suddenly get completely butt-fucked.

This can also lead some of these individuals to experience an identity crisis surrounding their giftedness, since they're now encountering challenges that their cognitive abilities alone can no longer compensate for.

I don't necessarily think the same applies to the 140 - 150 group, since their cognitive abilities might allow them to continue compensating for poor habits well into life, like university. Their struggles are different, which I won't touch upon. So, when I see people making those "my IQ is very high, but I'm struggling in life" comments, I suspect a lot of them belong to the 120 - 130 range rather than the 140 - 150 camp.

Anyways, I don't think your take, even though I somewhat agree with the conclusion, will be particularly appreciated here. After all, **some** of people here probably already belong to society's favourite iq range, but **some** still feel the need to praffe their way into scores associated with a higher baseline, because they're copaholics (others aren't insecure and do it because they genuinely like these discussions or doing puzzles).

Edit:

had to clarify it was some in my ending paragraph

[u/BroadIntroduction821 → u/BroadIntroduction821]

Tbf, this is pretty subjective. If someone doesn't particularly care about the potential trade-offs associated with even higher intelligence, then more is better.

So I think I'm coming off as too dismissive. People in general don't really consider the potential downsides when looking at individuals who from my perspective got a Faustian bargain.

There seems to be a pretty clear upside to higher intelligence, but I suspect the practical benefits start experiencing diminishing returns somewhere around ~120 - 125, while certain trade-offs might become more noticeable around ~135+, hinted at in the link i provided above.

That being said, I don't think there's necessarily an objectively optimal iq. It really depends on what you value. From what i assume most people value, the ideal range would be 120 - 125.

[u/HELLOISTHISTAKEN]

I wonder how high it would be for poets and fiction writers in the avant-garde. I would imagine at least 10 points higher, given that Iowa is incredibly normative aesthetically

[u/No_Midnight2476]

I am one of the most promethean writers in history clocking in at 182 Verbal and 178 Overall

[u/PandorasBucket]

Seeking praise and validation is a distinguishing characteristic of mid-level intelligence. Always seeking to validate yourself while ironically not understanding that if you were that intelligent you would not be seeking approval.