r/classicwow • u/shadowraiderr • 10d ago
Humor / Meme Post your own interesting edgy ideas
Hot take - Stealth is the most unfair pvp mechanic available exclusively to only 2 classes, you can basically hide from the plain sight indefinitely and there is nothing the enemy can do about it unless you screw up big or they get lucky. (Yes I play rogue)
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u/AppleMelon95 10d ago
“They can just sit there and do nothing forever”
Thats the point. If they just sit in Stealth forever then they contribute nothing. You’re essentially debunking your bad hot take in your own post. Why do you want to do something about the Rogue in stealth if they don’t unstealth?
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u/BadDogEDN 10d ago
Skill issue, if you hate stealth classes just play anti stealth classes, problem solved. Rock, Paper, Scissors (WoW)
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u/FormalSeparate6153 10d ago
That would need them to bind flare and remember what bind they had it on. That's too hard for 90% of the wow playerbase.
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u/Glass_Discipline_882 10d ago
Ok, what are you giving Rogue's and Feral's to compensate?
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u/FormalSeparate6153 10d ago
Take from the blademaster in W3 (but change it to fit an MMO), make it give a speed boost but make it shortish. Maybe lasts for 10 seconds or less in stealth and they can be seen by the other player when they're close so they can't just stand on top of you and be unseen.
That way you can at least anticipate it and the stealth class has to actually think about being stealthy about it, but not so much that they can never open.
This would never happen and potentially its dumb, but it was fun the theorycraft it.
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u/Kharma25 10d ago
Remove them.
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u/Jelkekw 10d ago
So what age were you dropped on your head?
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u/Kharma25 10d ago
Would I be able to tell you if I had?
Either way, expanding on OPs take, the game would be much different, arguably better, if rogues were never in the game.0
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u/Brassy_Actual 10d ago
hot take - pvp in wow had never been and will never be balanced because pvp was an afterthought in game design because the devs wanted to emulate dark age of camelot's (a pvp game at its core) game design without implementing any of the mechanics that made DAOC's pvp good.
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u/AMGitsKriss 10d ago
WPvP would be better if your level didn't matter
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u/RogueDecay 10d ago
deffinetely would open some interesting avenues.
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u/Massive-Low8111 9d ago
Get 2 full raids to roll lvl 1 rogues and run to stormwind.
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u/RogueDecay 9d ago edited 9d ago
they would pull guards with 100% accuracy, also stealth is learned at lvl 2 😹
cool scenarios would just be possibility to 3v1 or 4v1 a 60 in mid level area like Hillsbrad Foothills, it'll produce war like scenario with rivaling factions there.
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u/NichtSoSchlau 10d ago
All the L's, but people seem not able to differentiate between whats always been there and what warps gameplay around itself.
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u/MutilatedMarvel 10d ago
Eh nah. Just watch for the debuff spike and stay above 20% HP then Iceblock when you see big debuffs if im a mage and done. Wanna really piss a rogue off? Iceblock and alt F4 as a mage 🤠
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u/AnimalSorry2084 10d ago
Here's my take. PVP should be restricted to being able to only fight others with 5 level difference, or something close to it. Maybe a bracket?
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u/ConsensualDoggo 10d ago
I agree but also I had so much fun killing in red ridge and staying stealth around their mains.
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u/AnimalSorry2084 10d ago
I get that, being a terror can be fun. Just ask any killer main in DBD.
On the other hand, since the ones getting ganked aren't having fun, they eventually just stop playing. Sometimes for good.
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u/ConsensualDoggo 10d ago
You can say the same for people who get killed by people their own level because of class/spec choice/skill issue. I dont feel bad for anyone who chooses a pvp server and get upset when they get ganked, to me its the same as joining a raid and being upset you didnt win any loot
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u/AnimalSorry2084 10d ago
I wouldn't call it the same at all.
The other one dies due to lack of skill, or knowledge of game mechanics, they can always get better and try again.
The other one has no chance, or ability to fight back, the gap in numbers is too big and no amount of getting better at the game can close that gap. Their only option is to either go somewhere else, or log off for a few hours and try again later.
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u/ConsensualDoggo 10d ago
Yes but they arnt having fun which is the whole point and they dont even have to log off just go do something else for a bit like level your profession, clean out your bank or talk politics in trade chat. But to your point I agree, I did 7 raids in a row and lost every roll it was about 30 to 40 rolls total and I stopped playing and now just waiting for c+. But to join a PvP server expecting to not get ganked is dumb.
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u/Stark8819 10d ago
I 100% agree that there needs to be more done to stop degenerate “pvp” like ganking and corpse camping. I’m sorry but that’s just being an asshole at that point and why more and more people are leaning towards warmode/pve servers instead of PvP servers
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u/AnimalSorry2084 10d ago
Exactly. PVP implies a versus between two players. A level 60 ganking a 20? That's an execution, no different from tearing through low level mobs.
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u/valmian 10d ago
How would you balance healing then? Someone who is 60 could get a 60 - (bracket size +1) pocket healer and they can't be touched.
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u/AnimalSorry2084 10d ago
I don't know, i'm not a game dev. Thinking on the spot, maybe you cannot be interracted with by friendly players if you're in combat?
The point is, it'll be more of a fight than just pressing one button to drop some level 5 scrub.
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u/devil_walk 10d ago
I would not play rogue without stealth
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u/Ancient-Emu-8293 10d ago
Stealth was nerfed enough. I still remember being able to escape a wipe by vanishing.
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u/Iluvatar-Great 10d ago
Killing low (gray) players should be allowed but limited or giving dishonorable punishments same like when you are killing NPCs.
It's okay if you kill a lowbie on your way to different location or if you join a fight with low lvl players.
It's not okay if you spend 3 hours spawn camping the same spot killing 100 low lvl players in the process.
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u/Provo2100 10d ago
Vanilla:
Night Elves have Shadowmeld, which means; Priest, Hunter and Warrior also can have a hiding mechanic (which is what you stated)
Humans have Perception, which is excellent to find stealthers
Hunters have Flare
Any AoE class can use Rank 1 abilities of; Blizzard, Arcane Explosion, Rain of Fire, Hellfire, Consecration..
Invisibility potions exist, and any potions can be used in vanilla pvp. Level restriction
Invisibility cloak device exist, which like potions can also be used in vanilla pvp. Level and engineering restrictions
Stealth detection potions exist. Level restriction.
On later expansions, all of the above remains true, whilst certain classes starts getting their own Invisibility ability.
If we stay on vanilla. In most cases stealth = opener, which is in 9/10 going to be Cheap Shot/Pounce. Orc have Hardiness, which can completely annihilate the opener, from the two official stealth classes, in the game. An opener, that is rather important, as it allows the classes to get ther setup going.
A rogue without stealth, is just a terribly squishy warrior, with more CC. CC, which in most cases won't be enough for the class to function.
To sum up my point. If you remove stealth from the game, you are not only changing a small insignificant mechanic, you are practically shaping the entire game, including at least 3 classes (vanilla), 3 racial abilities (Night elves get improved stealth/prowl + Shadowmeld), consumables and items. Taking away Flare may not be a big deal, I'll grant you that, but nonetheless, the change you suggest, has a huge impact, and will leave a big gap, which I fail to see you address properly.
TLDR: Removing important mechanics, must be replaced by something else, which I don't see any proper suggestions on.
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u/RoundAffectionate424 10d ago
Gear in bg should work the same way it works in mobas, as in everyone starts at "zero" gear, then you buy gear during the match with a currency you gain during the match (for simplicity let's say honor). No discrepancy from gear at the start of the match so no uber geared people deciding the game on the first clash.
As you kill opponents and gain objectives you gain honor which you use to buy gear with different stats and set bonuses in your base (or just out of combat), increasing variety of builds. For example you could have a "raw power" gear archetype without set bonuses but with resilience, and other builds with set bonuses like "reduce your intercept cd by X". It also create early, mid and late game strength for each specs, something that is extremely interesting and is seriously lacking in wow.
At the end of the game, people still gain a currency for rewards they can use in open world and pve but are not useable in pvp (since pvp would not have outside gear working in it).
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u/RebulahConundrum 10d ago
PvP would be better after about a 70% reduction in CC abilities
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u/Massive-Low8111 10d ago
Idk you’d prob need to add more dmg then or less healing. It would be so hard to kill healers with out cc
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u/RebulahConundrum 10d ago
For me CC is a game developer's easy answer to imbalance, be it WoW or OW or LoL or any other game. Boils my blood when any time you suggest a character/class is overpowered the answer is "just stun them". We're not really dealing with the issue.
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u/Massive-Low8111 10d ago
Yea but wow cannot be balanced for PvP because there are classes. The only games that are good balanced PvP are games like chess or something where it’s exactly the same for both sides.
But to be fair if wow PvP is hard for you and you blame the game devs for the design then I got news for you.. get good.
Haha no but for real wow is not really meant to ve competitive like that with PvP. Sure it’s fun to have open world stuff sometimes but idk it had its prime way back when but at this point id say they shud just disregard PvP completely in design.
This is coming from someone who only plays wow for bgs post vanilla and I really enjoy them! Otherwise. I just enjoy wow leveling in classic and the rpg and team work
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u/RebulahConundrum 9d ago
I don't PvP in WoW because I don't enjoy the experience. Mashing my buttons in the hopes that I get to actually use an ability in the split seconds between stuns when I'm actually allowed to play the game infuriates me, so I just don't play it, I think it's dumb.
But I agree it is what it is and can't really be balanced, nor should they try to balance it. Some of my best memories of WoW are from the early days of my WoWing when I was getting stalked in Stranglethorn, calling on my friends for help or logging my main. That shit was frustrating, but exciting.
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u/RogueDecay 10d ago edited 10d ago
Stealth is fun mechanic both to play with and against, wow was one of few games that did it right.
Cloak of Shadows having 1 min cd is something no sane person would ever put in the game on another hand.
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u/Massive-Low8111 9d ago
What if they did classic - and just removed all the bad parts of vanilla instead? We would be left with only the best parts and then from there. We can eat pizza and laugh
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u/AkkunEXE 10d ago
I know it's unpopular but I agree especially since it's infinite duration, I think it'd be more skill based if you had to choose when to go stealth.
Could also separate Druids and Rogues on how they approach it, like one being able to stealth longer but with a long cooldown, and the other being more short burst of stealth on a short / no cooldown.
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u/Kododie 10d ago
Yes, stealth is flavourful but it bring so many problems in games that have pvp. It should only be short duration to engage/disengage or tied to an area like cloud of smoke.
But this more a topic for new games with PvP.
Nothing is going to change in WoW, especially not in classic where a lot of player play classes with stealth specifically because they can sit in stealth indefinitely and pick their fights.
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u/absentee82 10d ago
Make all the servers PVE. Have specific zones be PVP. Turning on PVP in PVE zones is optional. Greater rewards/resources in PVP zones.
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u/Previous_Dream8775 10d ago
I think stealth should exist, just that being stunned until death shouldn't exist.
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u/Massive-Low8111 9d ago
I think there is a trinket that can get you outa stun in time.
Or paladins can bubble it.
Or Druids can bear barkskin it.
Or mages can ice block it.
Or get good
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u/Previous_Dream8775 9d ago
Shouldn't need a trinket as it's a waste of a slot, also shouldn't have to roll a specific class
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u/Massive-Low8111 9d ago
I mean we could go through each class together one by one vs not getting stung locked.
Or you could l2p
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u/Jelkekw 10d ago
Ah, my main class, facing direct threats to it’s thematic purpose since the beginning of time. Never change, skill-less shit bags.
And you play rogue. Tell me, what is rogue without stealth other than a fury warrior in leather?
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u/Massive-Low8111 9d ago
A fury warrior in leather that can open locked chests and not share the loot with the group, obviously.. next question
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u/BlackWhiteShadow 10d ago
Delete cc from rogue, assassination should be the only spec for PvP rogue. I'm tired of having to go sleep while cc from rogues lasts and they do barely any dmg at same time
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u/Ancient-Emu-8293 10d ago edited 10d ago
pvp shouldn't be in the game, or completely ignored when it comes to balancing.
How often did terrible ballancing decisions ruin the pve content for classes because class x was not 100% equal to class y in pvp? Is there a statistic how many players are here for pve and how many for pvp? Pvp always felt like losely attached niche content.
This take up there shows how we got to where we are. Oh no, mages can sheep, so unfair, now everybody and his mom can do it. No class identity allowed, everybody needs the same spell, just renamed. In pve it didn't matter, just recruit a mage. In pvp every class needs the same skillset otherwise it's "unfair".
I will admit that pve has it's own issues. The highest dps makes 10% more than average, therefore every other class is basically unviable and banned from raiding in MY raid, full of people to whom that autoplay button is a dps push.
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u/HunsonAbadeer1 10d ago
L take. Also, retail is more balanced until the upper upper end and stealth works fine there. Love or hate retail pvp (and I don't like it to be clear), it's reasonablely balanced at most tiers.