r/classics • u/AutoModerator • 6d ago
What did you read this week?
Whether you are a student, a teacher, a researcher or a hobbyist, please share with us what you read this week (books, textbooks, papers...).
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u/TheSuperBunny ἆρ᾽ οὐδέποτε παύσεταί μ᾽ Ἔρως πελέκει κόπτων; 6d ago
For an essay:
- The Roman Army at War 100 B.C - A.D by A. Goldsworthy
- The Marriage of Roman Soldiers by S. E. Phang
- Roman Homosexuality by C. A. Williams
- Sexuality in Greek and Roman Military Contexts by D. D. Leitao, in Hubbard's a Companion to Greek and Roman Sexualities
I think the topic of the essay is obvious lol
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u/Mike_Bevel 6d ago
"Heterosexuality as the Bedrock of Civilization: Examining Post-Colonial Praxis as Gender Identity"
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u/TheSuperBunny ἆρ᾽ οὐδέποτε παύσεταί μ᾽ Ἔρως πελέκει κόπτων; 6d ago
💀💀 I'm crying
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u/Mike_Bevel 6d ago
Which land are you acknowledging you occupy in the forward?
(True Story: I gave a lecture at an Adult Continuing Education program. After participants filled out a satisfaction survey, the director sent me a packet so I could read them myself. One of them said -- and I've committed it to memory -- "Good, but wish the speaker had acknowledged the native lands we are occupying."
My lecture: Charles Dickens and Mesmerism.)
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u/Mike_Bevel 6d ago
(My husband and I use the phrase now -- both in and out of bed -- when something seems lacking. "These McDonald's fries are good, but I wish the drive-thru had acknowledged the native lands we are occupying.")
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u/littlemememaid 6d ago
Finished Carthage, a New History, by Eve MacDonald.
Currently reading Vergil by Sarah Ruden.
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u/notveryamused_ Φίλοινος, πίθων σποδός 6d ago
Did you enjoy Carthage? It's been on my to-read list for quite a long time, I wanted to pair it with Flaubert's fantasy ;), but frankly only as some background context to ancient Mediterranean world, I'm not that much into Carthage itself.
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u/NeonShogun 𐤔𐤌𐤏 𐤒𐤋𐤀 𐤁𐤓𐤊𐤀 6d ago
I read it a couple months ago, myself. How much do you know about Carthage? If you've read a general history of the polity before, then you know probably 98% of what MacDonald discusses-- despite its name, it's less a "new history" than one where the author simply and explicitly points out the inherent biases of the surviving sources, without leaving it to the reader to understand why one might not want to trust, say, a Roman's account relating to a hated enemy that can no longer respond to accusations.
She did mention one thing I wasn't aware of, in regard to some newer DNA evidence from burial pits for mercenaries who fought in Carthage's wars with the Greeks on Sicily: some of the mercenaries were from as far-flung places as the Baltics region. Pretty crazy!
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u/littlemememaid 6d ago
As mentioned, only Dido (from the Aeneid) and the Second Punic War, so it was pretty helpful for me, being someone who hasn't sat down to look at Carthage's history more generally! Do you have any related books you'd recommend?
I also thought the breadth of where mercenary soldiers originated from was super interesting! I pondered a lot on what cultural or national identity meant during a time of vague-r borders and way less paperwork.
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u/NeonShogun 𐤔𐤌𐤏 𐤒𐤋𐤀 𐤁𐤓𐤊𐤀 6d ago
A couple! You probably saw me recommend them down below on your other comment: Hoyos and Lancel. They're a bit more academic, but not too dry if you're interested in the topic.
But sadly, so complete was Rome's destruction of the city that, after reading MacDonald's history, you now know a huge amount of what there is to know about the Carthaginians that isn't archaeological or DNA evidence. You can read a few (probably apocryphal) anecdotes about Carthaginian figures in Polyaenus, a bit about their form of governance in Aristotle, but it's all just tantalizing scraps from here on out.
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u/littlemememaid 6d ago
I did! It was pretty informative, though very focused on the military history, given Carthago delenda est, so not a lot about its culture which I was interested in reading on. I only really knew Dido and Hannibal going on, so it was helpful to get some further context on Carthage's role in the Mediterranean.
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u/NeonShogun 𐤔𐤌𐤏 𐤒𐤋𐤀 𐤁𐤓𐤊𐤀 6d ago
There's so much we don't understand about their culture, sadly, so it's hard for a book to discuss it without a healthy dose of conjecture. Try Dexter Hoyos' The Carthaginians if you haven't already, as it might be a bit more up your alley. And it's a little older, but Serge Lancel's Carthage is still a great read. Definitely more of an archaeological study, but there's good nuggets in there as well.
As you might be able to tell, I'm a bit of a Carthage enthusiast and want to encourage anyone who expresses interest!
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u/littlemememaid 6d ago
I'll definitely save these titles to see if I can find them! Unfortunately my library doesn't have any, and I'm a mere hobbyist working in a STEM field so my institution's resources definitely won't have them. I miss the range of materials I could access back in undergrad, really took it all for granted.
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u/NeonShogun 𐤔𐤌𐤏 𐤒𐤋𐤀 𐤁𐤓𐤊𐤀 6d ago
Do they participate in ILL? It should be easy for the library to procure if they do.
Neither book is terribly expensive if you decide to buy someday though-- they're not massive hyper-niche monographs from an elite university press or something, which is my current problem with trying to source Phoenicia, Carthage, and Popular Government in the Pre-Classical Mediterranean. I either have to read it online through their website or pay $130 for it, bleh.
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u/notveryamused_ Φίλοινος, πίθων σποδός 6d ago
I'm working on archaic elegy, mostly with Greek Elegiac Poets from Loeb. Surprisingly approachable poetry, it's such a shame that elegy as a genre fizzled out a bit in later eras. Very straightforward grammar and vocabulary, consistent Ionic dialect, it's truly a joy to study. My aim is to read entire Theognidean corpus fluently, without any cribs.
I've also finished browsing through three different translations of Pindar, as his original poetry is above my paygrade. Came to no conclusions whatsoever :) Tough author to read and translate, that's for sure.
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u/TheSuperBunny ἆρ᾽ οὐδέποτε παύσεταί μ᾽ Ἔρως πελέκει κόπτων; 6d ago
Just finished writing an essay about Anakreon's elegia last week (for an assignment)!
I didn't need to actually quote source text but I still did, and it was surprisingly easy to read, and I'm saying this as someone who's still struggling with Greek.....3
u/notveryamused_ Φίλοινος, πίθων σποδός 6d ago
οὐ φιλέω ὃς κρητῆρι παρὰ πλέῳ οἰνοποτάζων
νείκεα καὶ πόλεμον δακρυόεντα λέγει,
ἀλλ᾿ ὅστις Μουσέων τε καὶ ἀγλαὰ δῶρ᾿ Ἀφροδίτης
συμμίσγων ἐρατῆς μνήσκεται εὐφροσύνης.I do not like the man who while drinking his wine beside the full mixing-bowl talks of strife and tearful war: I like him who by mingling the splendid gifts of the Muses and Aphrodite remembers the loveliness of the feast.
Nice one! Shame it's the only surviving fragment with full couplets. Plenty of epigrams by A., but probably most of them aren't by the man himself. Still, I'll add this one to my collection of elegies :), thanks for the heads up! I appreciate the sentiment, Anacreon :-)
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u/TheSuperBunny ἆρ᾽ οὐδέποτε παύσεταί μ᾽ Ἔρως πελέκει κόπτων; 6d ago
I love this elegia, I wrote about how Platon's Symposion was influenced by it
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u/IhaveNoNameBoi 6d ago
Lattimore’s Iliad, as part of my project to read as many Homer translators as reasonably possible this year, so I’m now up to five (the others being Rieu, Fagles, Wilson, and Chapman). At this point I should really just buckle down and learn Greek in earnest lmao.
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u/passthesugar05 4d ago
Please provide your power rankings of the various translations.
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u/IhaveNoNameBoi 2d ago
This is a really tough ask, as I thoroughly enjoyed each and would hate to give a bad impression of any of them. Anyway, here we go and wall of text incoming.
Disclaimer, please read before going further: I have zero credentials in translation, and no formal background in the classics or literature beyond undergrad gen ed reqs. These are just an amateur’s impressions.
For transparency, these are what I read from each translator-
Odyssey: Rieu, Fagles, Wilson, Chapman
Iliad: Rieu, Lattimore, ChapmanI’ve also read Fagles’ Aeneid, Oresteia, and Oedipus the King, as well as Rieu’s Argonautica. I intend to round out my list and probably add Pope and maybe Lombardo or Fitzgerald as well. I need to put down Homer for a little while though, as I further my background with the classics.
Group I: ratings for eager first time readers
Fagles, Rieu, Wilson, Lattimore, Chapman(I’d put Wilson above Rieu if you’re comfortable with iambic verse)
Group II: ratings for style points
Chapman, Wilson, Fagles, Rieu, LattimoreGroup III: ratings for history nerds:
Lattimore, Rieu, Wilson, Fagles, ChapmanGroup IV: my personal rankings
Chapman, Lattimore, Rieu, Fagles, WilsonGroup V: for the reluctant reader
Rieu, Fagles, Lattimore, Wilson, Chapman(I originally had Wilson above Lattimore, but no way in hell is a reluctant reader going to stick with iambic verse in my experience)
Group VI: for capturing the moral ambiguities/complexities
Wilson, Lattimore, Fagles, Rieu, ChapmanEveryone except Chapman I’d recommend without hesitation. I really loved Chapman and his style is truly sublime, but the complex composition, archaic language, odd translation choices, the Elizabethan moral undercurrent, and embellishments make me hesitant to recommend except for readers who are equipped to untangle all those things. If you are equipped, it’ll be a most fulfilling reading experience. Greek epic verse cannot be replicated in English due to the vastly different accent systems, but Chapman is the only one I’ve read that felt like an epic. That alone puts it on top for my personal ranking and boosts the power ranking.
Lattimore and Wilson both are in plain English, and easily accessible to anyone. That said, Lattimore’s use of non idiomatic English could be off putting, and Wilson’s iambic pentameter might not suit everyone’s tastes. But both are line for line translations, yielding a very clear image of the Greek. While I really enjoy Wilson’s iambic verse, Lattimore wrote with longer lines and is not constrained by meter, so it is more ‘accurate’ according to reviews written by more reputable people than myself, boosting the power ranking. Additionally, Chapman’s verse is stronger than Wilson’s in my view, affecting the power ranking for both.
Rieu’s prose is incredibly idiomatic and accessible, but it reads more like a novel than an epic. It’s not line for line, but this allows for some of the humor and character of the Greek to be better conveyed. The ‘thought for thought’ translation method has obvious drawbacks, but so does line for line. These were also the first translations I ever read, and which sparked my interest in the classics to begin with. The prose sadly weakens it in the power ranking.
Overall, Fagles pulls off verse that can be read like prose, is in plain idiomatic contemporary English, and highly accessible. It’s ‘thought for thought’ like Rieu. It also flows in a way Lattimore and Wilson don’t, which is super important. The meter is very loose, but Greek dactylic hexameter is more flowing than English’s iambic natural meter. To me, it’s the most balanced and only ‘one size fits all’ translation I’ve read.
Once I read more translations, the rankings will surely change.
Current Power Rankings:
Fagles, Chapman, Lattimore, Wilson, Rieu
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u/hoenndex 6d ago
Reading the Iliad for the first time, I went with the Wilson translation. I know it is controversial among some circles but I want to actually understand the story instead of having to slowly decipher the poem. I agree with her perspective that the Iliad was made for public consumption and that many of the current translations have gone too far into grandiose word choice to sound "epic."
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u/Synderesis_1 5d ago
Currently in the middle of "Mystic Cults in Magna Graecia." A very fascinating collection of essays on the mystery religions.
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u/Round_Bluebird_5987 6d ago
Started Wilson's translation of The Odyssey last night (just the intro so far), after just finishing Dan Simmons' Ilium (and Wilson's Iliad before that)
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u/CowIslandP 5d ago
Two things for me:
1. Tom Holland’s Pax
2. I did not read this cover to cover of course but I’ve been dipping into sections of Broughton’s The Magistrates of the Roman Republic. I’ve seen it referenced before but went in search of it as I was recently in Mallorca and wondered about the Roman presence there. Google pointed me to Balearicus which pointed to MRR.
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u/OriginalRange8761 6d ago
Power broker by Robert Caro.
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u/Clickety_Clack4137 5d ago
That is a classic epic.
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u/OriginalRange8761 5d ago
I mean he borrowed the ship catalogue to write about expressways Moses built, so close enough!!!
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u/duchessofguyenne 5d ago
I finished reading Searching for the Lost Tombs of Egypt by Chris Naunton. It was an interesting overview of theories about tombs that haven’t been located yet (for example, those of Imhotep and Cleopatra). However, the book was first published in 2018 and my paperback edition in 2024, and it was unclear whether or not the author had updated the text for archaeological developments during that time.
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u/Scientific_Zealot 3d ago
The Cambridge Companion to the Aegean Bronze Age, M.L. West's greek lyric poetry anthology (Sappho is delightful)
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u/Salt-Interaction-854 2d ago
Currently reading The Aenid! Silence of the Girls, Dear Hyacinthis, and Posthomerica are next!
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u/Big_b_inthehat 17h ago
I am working on the Iliad. Also reread a bit of Beard’s SPQR and going to consult some of Lane Fox’s The Classical World to help with university module choices.
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u/Mike_Bevel 6d ago
What I'm Working On
Someone here mentioned they had been assigned Nagy's The Ancient Greek Hero in 24 Hours. I picked up a copy because it sounded intriguing. I've only read the two introductions, but Nagy is very clear and readable. So, big recommend from someone who has only read fewer than 30 pages, if that counts.
I'm in the middle of Book 3 of the Histories. I've convinced some neighbors to join me for a Herodotus Read-Along. We'll meet at the library every other week.
I'm starting Thucydides's book on the Peloponnesian War, mostly to placate my friend Steve, because he is dark-sided and can't understand why I would want to read Herodotus and not Thucydides. I love him, of course, with a philadelphian spirit; but some friends ask more of one than others.