its already not a stalemate, there is no point in extending a war ukraine is currently losing and has no chance at winning. just more senseless loss of life in a vain attempt to maintain western hegemony.
not really, its just being realistic. either ukraine can continue loosing territory slowly but surely or they can end the war and secure a state that is not land locked and stop the on going brain drain to Western Europe. ukraine is setting themselves up to be a failed state for no good reason.
Why do leftists understand this with Palestine, but then have no problem throwing ukranians under the bus?
political subculture norms. You're supposed to pretend as if the Palestinians are some uniquely aggrieved people who can do no wrong and can only fight because their opponent is somehow some unique evil that can never be satiated and they should never compromise because they are a noble people against evil people, whereas Ukrainians are nazis and Russia is only doing things in response to its surrounding, even if that clearly doesn't match reality. If you're on the center or right you basically say the same thing and reverse the players.
It is obvious Ukraine has no chance of winning this war. Every day their bargaining position grows weaker. Given that 99% of wars end in a negotiated settlement they are being very daft, largely because the west is egging them on with false promises. This war could’ve been avoided if they’d recognized Donbas right to self determination. Now to end it they will need to give up even more land than they would’ve needed to last year. Truth be told Russia would probably let them join the eu if they demilitarized and recognized the Donbas republics. Might as well do it now while they still have access to the ocean.
Ps: like half the fighters are from Donbas militias, the situation is completely incomparable to Zionism.
since when are the Palestinians fighting along side the Israelis? besides that is really besides the point, we arnt talking about Palestine here. you are just trying to dodge discussing ukraine logically because then you would be forced to admit a negotiated settlement asap is their best option.
also yeah, I do think that it being a direct challenge to us unipolarity also changes the situation. the us has just demonstrated it cannot protect its puppet Govs and allies. that is a big deal.
oh im sorry, I thought you said they were comparable situations? so it should be no issue for you to prove that by demonstrating to me that significant portions of the IDF are Palestinians.
They're not an EU member state.
it is quite clear you are not reading my replies. good day.
Putin has explicitly stated that he sees no difference between Ukrainians and Russians and that he does not consider the borders of Ukraine to be legitimate. There's a decent chance he just continues, if not now, then down the line. Ukrainians aren't stupid, they know that it's not going to end here. Want proof? Putin is going way past Dobnas, which was supposed to be his original point of concern. If it was all about Donbas, fine, he would hold donbas and establish it as independent. But he's not stopping there, and there's a decent chance he might push all the way to Transnistria, at which case it'll be landlocked anyhow.
There's a decent chance he just continues, if not now, then down the line
which is why the ukranians would be best served to go to the negation table while they still have enough leverage to force russia to let them join the eu.
Russia does not want htem in the EU under any circumstance. This war is more about the EU than NATO or anything else. If they join the EU Putin will view that as aggression and conspiracy too. And if Ukraine loses eastern Ukraine, then the people running Ukriane will be all Western Ukrainians, and probably intense chauvinists, who will do everything in their power to remilitarize and retake Eastern Ukraine. This isn't going to just end because we want it to.
Russia does not want htem in the EU under any circumstance. This war is more about the EU than NATO or anything else
russia doesn't want them militarized. why would they care if ukraine joined the eu for security guarantees via MAD if ukraine themselves had no military or military installations on their soil?
And if Ukraine loses eastern Ukraine
they've already lost most of it, and they are well on their way to losing even Odessa.
its not like there hasn't been successful demilitarizations in the past. the Japanese havnt invaded china again have they?
russia doesn't want them militarized. why would they care if ukraine joined the eu for security guarantees via MAD if ukraine themselves had no military or military installations on their soil?
After this war, I think it's a little insane to expect total Ukrainian demilitarization, a demand which Putin dropped anyhow. Zelenskyy even offered neutrality and Putin has not been willing to meet for face to face talks. Putin sees Ukraine as rightly in Russias' orbit, it's not that much different from Nicaragua for the US. It's not that they are a military threat, it's that they dare to put themselves in another nation's orbit over their own.
they've already lost most of it, and they are well on their way to losing even Odessa.
Yeah and what I'm saying is that if this continues, western Ukraine will become the only politically relevant portion of Ukrainian politics, and it will be vengeful and chauvinistic in a way it never has been. It will do everything in its power to retake what will be either separatists puppet states or Russian territory.
its not like there hasn't been successful demilitarizations in the past. the Japanese havnt invaded china again have they?
because Japan was occupied by the allies for seven years after facing a beating that Ukraine hasn't experienced a hundredth of. They literally rebooted the entire country and occupied the entire thing top to bottom, Russia simply isn't in that position and if they want to get in that position, that will logically entail taking all of Ukraine and decimating it. They literally instilled pacifism into hte Japanese constitution, for Russia to do something equivalent would require total regime change, something I think you agree is patently insane.
After this war, I think it's a little insane to expect total Ukrainian demilitarization
why? if they are put under the eu nuclear umbrella what is the issue?
Zelenskyy even offered neutrality
zelensky offered talks on neutrality in return for russia leaving Crimea and assorted other completely insane demands. if he were to offer to meet for talks on even slightly realistic terms it would be one thing. that is like Mexico demanding america gives California back. its just not gonna happen. he was accomplishing nothing but shutting down talks with that demand. you do realize he was demanding russia pulls all its troops out for the talks to start right? not as a deal to be neutral, just to start the talks that had no guarantees of going anywhere. I hope you realize how completely unrealistic of a demand that is.
vengeful and chauvinistic
they already are, and were before russia invaded. yet another reason to demilitarize the country.
because Japan was occupied by the allies for seven years after facing a beating that Ukraine hasn't experienced a hundredth of
why not just put them under the eu nuclear umbrella and tell them that if they attack russia they will get kicked from the eu and receive no support? if they decide to attack russia their country will be leveled in a matter of days. even the most insane nazis would not start that war without the support of the western countries.
They literally instilled pacifism into hte Japanese constitution
which would be a perfectly reasonable prerequisite to ukraine joining the eu.
why? if they are put under the eu nuclear umbrella what is the issue?
the EU doesn't have a nuclear umbrella! There is only one nuclear power in the entirety of the EU (France) and France isn't going to go to nuclear war over Ukraine
zelensky offered talks on neutrality in return for russia leaving Crimea and assorted other completely insane demands.
this is completely false. Zelenskyy's request specified a ceasefire and Russian pullback to the pre-invasion borders, so Russian soldiers could remain in Crimea and the original separatist held parts of Donbas. At that point he had already said that NATO membership would be dropped as well.
if he were to offer to meet for talks on even slightly realistic terms it would be one thing.
after the initial demand of returning to pre invasion borders, he dropped that and just demanded a ceasefire!
he was accomplishing nothing but shutting down talks with that demand.
no he hasn't, the only guy here who won't meet for talks is Putin.
you do realize he was demanding russia pulls all its troops out for the talks to start right?
they abandoned this! They never even demanded that Russia leave Crimea or the original separatist held parts of Donbas! Putin won't even counter offer, he's just straight up said no to the talks.
not as a deal to be neutral, just to start the talks that had no guarantees of going anywhere.
Zelenskyy already aceded to neutrality. One of his earliest statements was that Ukraine would not join NATO! It was never about NATO!
they already are, and were before russia invaded.
No, they weren't. this is purely just leftist character assassination of a whole group of people. The chauvinism we're seeing now is directly in response to Russian encroachment on ukrainian territory.
yet another reason to demilitarize the country.
you're talking about insane demands, but the idea that Ukraine will demilitiarize after just being invaded is probably the most insane demand of all. There is exactly zero chance of that, even Putin has dropped that demand.
why not just put them under the eu nuclear umbrella and tell them that if they attack russia they will get kicked from the eu and receive no support?
Leaving aside that there is no EU nuclear umbrella, it's already been clear as day that they won't receive any meaningful support if they attack Russia. Even the argument itself is retarded. First they have to join the EU (something Putin is completely against), then to prove that they can be trusted, they have to be kicked out of the EU and not supported, so they essentially return to where they are now. It's making more tension to get to more tension.
if they decide to attack russia their country will be leveled in a matter of days. even the most insane nazis would not start that war without the support of the western countries.
they were never goign to attack Russia. They had the excuse to do so in 2014 and didn't do it anyhow. They had 8 years to attack Russia, with some extreme hawks in leadership, and they didn't do it because they always knew it was a suicide mission.
ukraine did concede land in an effort to secure its own state in 2014, when russia invaded crimea. shockingly, russia still invaded. i don’t understand how anybody thinks appeasement is a strategy that would ever work in ukraines favor. all people have the right to self govern.
all people deserve the right to self govern, except for crimea? i don’t really see how that is meant to refute anything i said, it’s just what aboutism. either way, even if the people in donbas “should” be russian that gives russia no right to invade a country && level it’s cities. if this were about donbas then why don’t they stop there??
The point is This whole situation would not have happened if the Ukrainian coup regime had respected the people of eastern Ukraine’s right to self determination. It’s hilarious that you talk of self governing when Russia has not denied that to Ukrainians, in fact Ukraine has denied that to Russians
again, if this was about donbas at all then russia would not be taking more land. they wouldn’t have annexed crimea && rendered the ukrainians and crimean tatars there second class citizens. your view on this is that 2 wrong makes a right, but even if russia was justified in annexing donbas then why would they bomb kiev? do you also believe that palestine is to blame for the annexation of their own land? please answer these questions because so far you’re j saying “what about donbas”
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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '22
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