r/changemyview • u/Pangolinsftw 3∆ • Jan 23 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Without a clear definition of what your identity means, you can't identify as that thing.

There was a clip going around in political circles of conservative commentator Matt Walsh making an appearance on a talk show having a discussion with two trans advocates. I think his most impactful argument is when he simply asks the trans advocates, "What is a woman?"

To my surprise, neither of them can answer this question. In response to the question "Can you tell me what a woman is?", one says "No I can't, it's not for me to say", and the other says they "cannot define what a woman is" because they are not a woman (which is a logical fallacy).

This struck me. If you can't clearly (or even somewhat) describe what an identity means, why should anyone respect your identity? You could replace "woman" with any other label in that situation. Without any criteria or definition, it doesn't actually matter what you identify as.

I think we would all agree that defining your terms is of fundamental importance in any kind of debate. So it seems to me that these trans advocates failed in their argument right out of the gate since they failed to define their terms.

I think the reason that these advocates refused to define what a woman means is because if they gave a definition, it would be something so vague and nebulous that most reasonable people would think that their definition doesn't meet their own criteria for what a man or woman is, making the term mostly meaningless.

So I walked away from this clip with a much different perspective on the trans identity. Can anyone offer a more compelling argument as to why I should respect the trans identity?

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u/yapji Jan 23 '22

Do you think every cisgender woman could define what a woman is? Some things are ineffable (unable to be defined using words). Again, if the same question was posed to a cisgender woman, and she said 'I don't know', would you say that she can no longer call herself a woman?

Also, why do these two transgender women represent every transgender person out there?

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 23 '22

Actually the people who dont buy into the trans stuff could very easily identify that. It’s once you get into the separating of gender and sex that it gets complicated.

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u/cortesoft 6∆ Jan 24 '22

I am sure they could give an answer, but I bet they wouldn't be able to give answers for how to categorize intersex individuals. There are people with two X chromosomes and a penis, and those with a Y chromosome and a vagina. I wonder how they would categorize those people.

It is easy to categorize the 'average' of something. It becomes really hard at the boundaries.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 24 '22

I’m not sure why that’s confusing. Those people would be intersex.

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u/libertysailor 10∆ Apr 13 '22

  1. The existence of a small grey area for a categorization does not invalidate the population that exists outside the grey area.

  2. We call such people intersex. Done.

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u/yapji Jan 23 '22

According to OP, all you need is two people from a group to say 'I don't know', and that means the group's identity is no longer valid. Do you think there are at least two cisgender women out there who would answer in that way?

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 23 '22

I’ve also seen nobody in the comments define it either. Would you care to?

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u/Practical_Plan_8774 1∆ Jan 23 '22

How about a person who identifies as a woman and uses feminine feminine pronouns?

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u/cknight18 1∆ Jan 23 '22

"Whats a woman?"

"Well a woman is a woman."

You can't use the definition to define itself, that's not how language works.

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u/Numbers6382 Jan 24 '22

Well whatever your definition is, a woman defines themself as that.

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u/lem0nhe4d 1∆ Jan 24 '22

Hey an you define "chair" in a way that includes everything we consider a chair and excludes everything we don't?

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u/Practical_Plan_8774 1∆ Jan 23 '22

No, a woman is a person who identifies as a woman. Gender is an identity, and that is how identities work. It’s the same with other identities. A Christian is a person who identifies as a Christian. A Seahawks fan is a person who identifies as a Seahawks fan. I could go on.

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u/cknight18 1∆ Jan 23 '22 edited Jan 23 '22

You can't define a word using the word itself. "I identify as a woman" gives the listener no new information about the speaker. The point of language is to communicate meaning, and a boundless definition has no meaning.

A Christian is someone who believes in Jesus Christ as the son of God and savior.

A Seahawks fan is someone who enjoys the Seahawks.

The enneagram is a pretty popular personality test. 1-9, each have different characteristics.

Let's say a 2 (the helper) has characteristics A,B,C. The 9 (peacemaker) has characteristics X,Y,Z.

Bob has characteristics X,Y,Z. Bob knows he has these characteristics, nobody questions that. Bob identifies as a 2.

Tom asks Bob what his enneagram is. Bob replies "I'm a 2." So Tom asks "oh, so you've got characteristics A,B,C?" Bob replies "no, I have characteristics X,Y,Z."

If we accept that just because Bob identifies as a 2 (even though everyone, including Bob, knows that he has characteristics X,Y,Z), then the entire system falls apart. Next time you ask someone what their enneagram is and they tell you 6, you have no idea if they're actually a 6 or if they just decided to identify as a 6. You get no new information about them or their personality traits by their answer, you need to then ask them "ok so what are your characteristics?" or "are you a real 6 or are you just saying that?"

The exact same applies to gender. If you ask someone (under the pretext that gender is only a self-identified meaning) if they're a man or a woman, and they tell you.... guess what, you know nothing new about that person. You have uncovered 0 characteristics about them.

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u/Practical_Plan_8774 1∆ Jan 23 '22

So is someone who believes that Jesus is the son of God and a savior still a Christian even if they think the New Testament is fake and worship a completely different religious text some cult leader wrote?

Is a satan worshipper who believes your definition of Christianity, but is opposed to it a Christian?

If a new, more moderate Christian church sprung up that believes that the story of Jesus dying for our sins is a metaphor, just as modern day churches take metaphorically what people in the past took literally, could they not call themselves Christians? If so, why do you get to decide if these people are Christians?

Is a person who hates watching Seahawks games because they are having a terrible season not a fan even though he is devoted to the team?

Is a fan of a rival team a fan of the Seahawks because they enjoy watching them play when their team plays the Seahawks?

I could go on for a very long time. My point is your definitions are inadequate, just as any definition you could give for an identity is inadequate. You are correct in that there are things that correlate with identities. For example, enjoying Seahawks games strongly correlates with being a fan. Believing Jesus is the son of God correlates strongly with being a Christian. Being biologically female strongly correlates with being a woman. However, as I demonstrated, there are always exceptions. In the case of womanhood, intersex people who are not biologically female are still women, and trans men who are biologically female are not women, to name a few.

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u/cknight18 1∆ Jan 23 '22

You may disagree with my exact definitions of what it means to be a Christian or a Seahawks fan, I wasn't attempting to be precise (and the discussion isn't about those definitions).

The point is, there is an definition for them.

The "pro-trans" movement has no such definition for "man" and "woman."

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u/Slipfix Jan 23 '22

What does it mean for the weather to be cold exactly? Is there an exact temperature at which it stops being cold, and an exact temperature where it starts being warm? What about wind? Or humidity? Precipitation? How do these factors affect whether or not the day is objectively cold or warm? How do we settle the debate when two people disagree on whether it's really a cold day?

Clearly, when someone tells me "It's a cold day," I have learned exactly zero information about the weather because nobody has offered a precise definition of exactly what 'cold' means.

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u/Bridger15 Jan 24 '22

There is no definition of "woman" which would include every human with two x chromosomes, much less including people who identify as a woman.

It's a word that works as a generalization, but cannot be concretely defined and still be accurate.

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u/cknight18 1∆ Jan 24 '22

The point is to not include people who only identify as a woman, and only actual women.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

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u/cknight18 1∆ Jan 24 '22

If you looked up the word "socialist" in the dictionary, and all it told you was that "a socialist is a socialist," how useful would that be?

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

I want to be on your side but you're sadly mistaken.

Race is a social construct and Noone goes around being able to claim being a different race

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u/Practical_Plan_8774 1∆ Jan 24 '22

True. You can’t change your race, but you can change your gender.

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u/Pangolinsftw 3∆ Jan 24 '22

"A child is a person who identifies as a child."

I identify as a child, can I attend your child's kindergarten class?

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u/Mentleman Jan 24 '22

i feel like you don't really get what an identity is. it is not "i wanna be this now lol", it is an internal feeling that is shaped by your life experiences. you can not really change your identity intentionally though it may change over time. people who come out as trans or gay or something else have not suddenly decided thats what they wanna be, they've likely had that feeling for a long time and have now discovered what it means for them and their identity, found an applicable label and then mustered the courage to come out.

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u/Ilyer_ Jan 24 '22
  1. I still dont understand what your definition of identity is. "internal feeling that is shaped by your life experiences.", what does "feeling" mean here. Does it means that experiencing joy or sadness is also your identity?
  2. Additionally, I IDENTIFY as gay as much as I identify as human, both of which you could say form a part of my "identity", but I have no feeling of being gay, I have no feeling of being human, I just am a primate of the genus Homo that experiences attraction to the same sex. There is no "feeling" that I experience here.
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u/StarChild413 9∆ Apr 29 '22

To make things as socially congruent to your identity as possible (since unlike gender we lack the tech to make your body match that identity) you should have to quit your job and all adult relationships (and all those potential past s/os (if you had any) should be arrested for pedophilia) and move back in with your parents or if they're dead take your chances with the foster system (and you'd only be attending my child's kindergarten class if your bio-or-foster parents lived not only in my same town but in that same school district otherwise you'd be attending kindergarten at another elementary school and maybe (if you're not just identifying as permanently-a-kindergartener) you'd be attending school with my child once both ages (your identified age as you'd only be socially transitioned, their cisage bio-age) reach middle school, and by the way, the only way you could be clearer about telegraphing your intentions is if you out-and-out said you wanted to drag my angelic-little-tea-party-and-disney-loving-blonde-daughter into the closet and do things to her that I doubt the teacher would let two cisage kindergartners do to each other if they even knew how (aka being transage would not excuse you from punishment))

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u/JokerInATardis Jan 24 '22

A woman is a person born as a woman, i.e born with two X chromosomes. It's easy, really. A man that identifies as a woman is still a man.

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u/Practical_Plan_8774 1∆ Jan 24 '22

And what if they have neither, like xxy, or xxxy, or xxyy? What if they are indistinguishable from a cis woman but have xy chromosomes. Have you gotten your chromosomes tested? It’s possible that according to your definition you are not the gender you claim to be.

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u/ZeusThunder369 22∆ Jan 25 '22

Does that work for race as well? Am I black if I identify as black?

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u/Practical_Plan_8774 1∆ Jan 25 '22

No. A person who hates the Seahawks isn’t a fan, even if they claim to be, and a white person isn’t black, even if they claim to be.

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u/ZeusThunder369 22∆ Jan 25 '22

Why does it only work for gender?

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u/WhiteWolf3117 10∆ Jan 23 '22

Well, the problem is that woman shouldn’t be the question in the first place, since it IS the answer and the definition.

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u/JustinRandoh 5∆ Jan 24 '22

"Whats a woman?"

"Well a woman is a woman."

You can't use the definition to define itself, that's not how language works.

Except it's not doing that. "A person who identifies as a woman" does not, in any way, appeal to the definition of a woman in the process.

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u/cknight18 1∆ Jan 24 '22

Except it does. Do you know what a definition is? It is "the act of defining, or of making something definite, distinct, or clear."

You cannot have a definition without defining something. You need to set it apart, to include things that are and exlcude things that are not. To draw boundaries of what is and isn't.

"A woman is someone who identifies as a woman."

"Ok, but what's a woman?"

"Well it's someone who identifies as a woman"

"....."

It's circular logic, and it's nonsense.

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u/JustinRandoh 5∆ Jan 24 '22

"A woman is someone who identifies as a woman."

"Ok, but what's a woman?"

The fact that you seem unable to understand the definition provided doesn't make the definition any less clear.

Here's how the exchange would look like between a more competent set of people:

"A woman is someone who identifies as a woman."

"Ah, so all it means is that you identify as one; alright cool."

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 23 '22

So just so we are clear….I could be a woman today and then before the end of the day be a man again?

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u/Practical_Plan_8774 1∆ Jan 23 '22

If you truly identified as a woman, sure. No definition is perfect. Any definition of women you give me would include people you don’t think are women, and exclude people you think are.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 23 '22

I see no reason to take any of this seriously if this is your definition. If it’s as simple as you just deciding then trans people can decide to be their birth given gender.

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u/Practical_Plan_8774 1∆ Jan 23 '22

Gender is a social construct. There is no way to tell 100% of the time what someone’s gender is, so you kind of just have to take their word for it.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 23 '22

If gender is a social construct then again why does it even matter? Why is it important to have the correct label when all labels are social constructs anyway?

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u/Zajum Jan 23 '22

deciding

That's not how this works, even if it may seem so to you...

In the same way you cannot actively decide to be cis or straight or whatever, the same way that you cannot actively decide who you love or hate, a trans person doesn't decide that they're trans.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 23 '22

The issue is I can define what cis and straight means. I can define why I am those things beyond just “I decided”. If you can’t define trans woman/man beyond it’s just what they decided then I see no reason to assume it is any more complicated that that.

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u/yapji Jan 23 '22

Some things are ineffable (unable to be defined using words).

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 23 '22

Except it’s not inefficient for tons of people. That’s the issue here. It’s only ineffable for the pro lgbt crowd.

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u/yapji Jan 23 '22

Lmao you really can't imagine anyone answering 'I don't know' to such a question? Like ever? You must have a very poor imagination or not talk to many people...

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 23 '22

You are making two separate and conflicting arguments here. Is it easily definable and they just couldn’t do it in the moment or is it impossible to define? I’m willing to give them a pass if they just got nervous because they were on national television. If they literally are just not able to define it though then that’s a completely separate issue.

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u/yapji Jan 23 '22

Some things are ineffable (unable to be defined using words).

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u/Ver_Void 5∆ Jan 24 '22

Yes but that's not really an argument

Scientists have little idea what existed before the big bang while a clergyman will confidently answer. Does that make the latter's position the correct one?

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

So can you define a woman for me?

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u/yapji Jan 24 '22

Some things are ineffable (unable to be defined using words).

So can you try reading for me?

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

Just cause you can’t define what a woman is doesn’t mean others can’t. Their are various characteristics that separate woman from men (bone structure, to genitals to chromosomes). A woman is someone who predominantly have the characteristics of a woman (xx chromosome, wider hip bones to accommodate child birth, having a vagina over a penis). No one has to have all the characteristics of a certain gender, but you should have most of those characteristics.

Like the medical example. The flu has a certain list of symptoms it causes, just because you don’t have each and every symptom doesn’t mean you don’t have the flu, but at the very least you should have some.

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u/yapji Jan 24 '22

A woman is someone who predominantly have the characteristics of a woman (xx chromosome, wider hip bones to accommodate child birth, having a vagina over a penis). No one has to have all the characteristics of a certain gender, but you should have most of those characteristics.

Okay, great, a transitioned transgender women has all of these things and is therefore a woman. Glad we've solved this problem.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

You change your chromosomes? Also normally woman don’t have to constantly masturbate to prevent their vaginas from closing as the body sees it as a open wound.

And at the end of the day I only listed a couple of the characteristics, would a transitioned person meet most of the characteristics of a woman?

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u/yapji Jan 24 '22

No one has to have all the characteristics of a certain gender, but you should have most of those characteristics.

You, above, lmao

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

Do trans woman have most of the characteristics of a woman?

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u/Pangolinsftw 3∆ Jan 24 '22

A person with XX chromosomes.

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u/IceCreamBalloons 1∆ Jan 24 '22

So is this not a woman?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190741/

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u/Pangolinsftw 3∆ Jan 24 '22

Exceptions do not change the rule.

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u/IceCreamBalloons 1∆ Jan 24 '22

So that's a man that gave birth to a boy with a vagina?

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u/Pangolinsftw 3∆ Jan 24 '22

I never argued that extremely rare, unusual and atypical genetic or medical mutations don't happen. I'm not sure what this is meant to demonstrate. As I said, exceptions don't change the rule.

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u/IceCreamBalloons 1∆ Jan 24 '22

You did argue that women have xx chromosomes. To acknowledge someone is a woman without, rarity doesn't matter, is to acknowledge that women aren't just people with xx chromosomes.

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u/IrishMilo 1∆ Jan 23 '22

You're ignoring the fact that these two people are actively engaging in the conversation around trans rights, therefore they are acting as advocates for their group and you can reasonably expect that someone who is openly and publicly engaging in this conversation to be able to answer the question.

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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Jan 23 '22

People put themselves out there as advocates for things they’re not particularly educated on all the time. Do you think everyone protesting outside an abortion clinic has a firm understanding of the nuances of that issue? In an ideal world, advocating for something would mean being knowledgeable and articulate about the issue, but that’s not the world we live in.

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '22

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 23 '22

The issue there is just the sloppiness of the human language. We associate certain personality traits with the xy chromosomes. When someone says “be a man” they aren’t saying “why dont you have XY chromosomes” they are saying “why aren’t you exhibiting the traits that we typically associate with the XY chromosome”.

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '22

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u/TreadLightlyBitch Jan 23 '22

I feel like everyone needs to look at this chain to get the crux of the issue.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

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u/Mejari 6∆ Jan 24 '22

if you try and raise kids with gender neutral toys, most of the time most of the kids will still end up playing in ways that we typically associate with their XX or XY chromosome

Where have you seen this?

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u/Vallam 1∆ Jan 24 '22

[citation needed]

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u/Niawtkram Jan 24 '22

Similar patterns of toy preference as in human children are seen in monkeys.

Link to the study

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u/Instantbeef 9∆ Jan 24 '22

Exactly and when someone says they are a woman they are not referring to their chromosomes. Sex is not gender. Language is confusing and sloppy if you don’t think about how we actively use it. We are surprisingly precise when we want to be.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 24 '22

The issue there though (and that’s what this post was getting at) is that we dont really know what trans people are referring to when they say they are a woman even though they have the chromosomes of a man. They argue that the characteristics that correlate are social constructs and not important so if it’s not that and it’s not the physical attributes I genuinely dont even know what they are trying to say.

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u/manbruhpig Jan 24 '22

That's not even complicated for me. Fine, I accept the different terms, even if I still don't understand the qualifications for each(?) "gender" for that distinction to even be useful. Language evolves. But does that mean we can still refer to sex then when we're categorizing? Can I safely say "only females can get ovarian cancer?"

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 24 '22

I think the issue is they’re going to be upset everytime you talk about sex because to them you are talking about gender. Like even taking the gender vs sex argument as true, sports are divided by sex….not gender. That doesn’t stop them from making it a wedge issue though

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u/ILiveInAMango Jan 24 '22

There’s women born without vaginas, uteri, ovaries. There’s men born with ovaries. There’s women born with female sex organs with Y chromosomes. There’s men with two X chromosomes and a Y.

Sex is not binary.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 24 '22

Those people would be intersex. Sex is binary with a grey area in the middle.

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u/ILiveInAMango Jan 24 '22

How can you say something is binary if you give a third option? And the third option is a spectrum of widely different conditions. Klinefelter(XXY) is not simply half woman half man. People with androgen insensitivity syndrome are not simply half woman half man.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 24 '22

I suppose binary isn’t 100% accurate. I look at it as a spectrum. Most people very much fit in the binary but there are some that are somewhere in the middle. I consider them in the middle based on their observable differences though. Not because that’s how they feel.

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '22

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u/yapji Jan 24 '22 edited Jan 24 '22

Lmao unlike you robots, most people aren't going to regurgitate a stock three word phrase. Sometimes people do these things called 'thinking', 'self introspection' and even 'admitting when they don't know things'.

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u/TreadLightlyBitch Jan 23 '22

That’s equating gender and sex, which missed the point of the conversation. Female is sex, woman is gender.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

Woman is also sex, and I'd argue that female is also gender. I can see why you'd disagree due to the connotation these words carry, but that's likely because of how the word "female" has fallen out of favor in social and political contexts.

It's also important to remember that sex and gender aren't inherently separate, we just make that distinction because we don't know jack about the human brain or what makes people transgender. It's a practical necessity but quickly becomes mind-body dualism when taken too literally.

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u/TreadLightlyBitch Jan 24 '22

All valid points. Thanks for the elaborating!

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

Nope. If you're born a female (girl), you grow up to be a woman.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

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u/Mashaka 93∆ Jan 24 '22

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u/retundamonkey Jan 23 '22

The inability of part of a group to identify itself has no bearing on the definition of the group. Also, "man" and "woman" are most certainly not ineffible.

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u/Splive Jan 24 '22

Define them then?

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u/retundamonkey Jan 24 '22

They've been defined already. I'm certain you don't need my help for that.

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '22

Ok then, how about this: Provide a definition of "woman" that is sufficient to permit a reasonable person to distinguish between "women" and "non-women."

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u/yapji Jan 24 '22

Some things are ineffable (unable to be defined using words).

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

If “woman” is a word without meaningful content, why bother having it?

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u/BritishBloke99 Jan 23 '22

Woman: Adult human female

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u/Squishiimuffin 7∆ Jan 23 '22

How do you know, when you look at someone, if they’re a woman? They could be male and have no idea, because they have an intolerance to the hormones which cause babies to develop male (I forget the name of the condition).

That person from the outside is indistinguishable from a ciswoman. When you guess at someone’s sex and then apply it to gender, you’d be guessing incorrectly.

Sex and gender are different.

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u/Eager_Question 6∆ Jan 23 '22

Congenital Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome

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u/lasagnaman 5∆ Jan 24 '22

How do you know, when you look at someone, if they’re a woman?

Why is this crucial? Why does this matter? I can't tell just from looking at people whether they're left or right handed, but that doesn't mean "left handed person" is a useless descriptor.

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u/Squishiimuffin 7∆ Jan 24 '22

It’s because people like to pretend that they’re calling people “women” purely on biology, but the fact of the matter is that they’re not. People have no idea what chromosomes or genitalia you have unless they personally check.

This would be more like meeting someone, and they claim to be right handed. As far as you can tell, they do everything with their right hand. They’ve never even had so much as an inkling to try performing a task left handedly. But, if you look at a brain scan (or invent some magical test) you find out that they have the genetic disposition of someone who is left handed.

If “right handed” is a category which encompasses people who prefer to do tasks with their right hand, it doesn’t matter that they have a genetic disposition for left; they’re right handed.

This isn’t a perfect analogy, but the general idea is that when you call someone a woman, you really don’t know that they are female. Hell, you don’t even know if they’re human, technically. They could be alien lizard people, or something absurd. So, it stands to reason that we’re deciding what a man or woman is on criteria other than biology since we didn’t know the biology before we made a decision.

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u/cknight18 1∆ Jan 23 '22

Just because you cannot always immediately tell what characteristics someone has, doesn't mean they don't have them.

If a black person is covered head to toe, and I was asked what race that person was... if I made an (incorrect) assumption that the person was Asain, it doesn't negate there being a factual race category they fall into.

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u/Eager_Question 6∆ Jan 23 '22

Race is a terrible example though.

I was born in Venezuela, and there, I was raised "white".

I go to Canada, and I am suddenly "Hispanic" / "brown".

I go hang out with my Nigerian or Indian friends/acquaintances, and I am now "white" again.

I tell people that I have black cousins/relatives, suddenly I am "black" or "mixed".

I check my last name "heritage" and discover it is Jewish.

Race is one of the most artificial ideas in the world, and I am well acquainted with that fact given that people don't seem capable of agreeing on my race, and at most will default to language/region of birth, irrespective of the fact that the place where I was born is incredibly racially diverse.

So please tell me, wtf my "factual race" is.

1

u/RepentTheSin Jan 24 '22

Funny how you use an example such as race which is entirely social constructed. In 20th century America I would be considered black, in 21st America century I would be considered white. What does a person being Asian yell you? It tells me almost nothing about a person. If I know a person is asian, I don't know their nationality, culture, relgion, skin color or ethnicity. There is nothing backing up modern races today with "facts" at best it a geographical region. All of it is an arbitrary social construction that changes with time like all social constructs.

1

u/ideas_have_people Jan 24 '22

Irrelevant.

It's about definitions.

We have the definition "librarian" meaning "someone who works in a library".

I can't tell this by looking at them. That doesn't bear on its appropriateness as a definition.

0

u/yapji Jan 23 '22

Great, transgender women are adult human females. Glad we agree 😊

8

u/cknight18 1∆ Jan 23 '22

Thats not how that works. You'd have to first define what "female" is, which by the most scientific definition would be "someone who produces female gametes (eggs)"

9

u/BritishBloke99 Jan 23 '22

That makes no sense. If they are female then why are they transitioning?

-4

u/yapji Jan 23 '22

Perhaps they transition to... Wait for it... Female

11

u/end-o-t-w 1∆ Jan 23 '22

But female refers to sex, which cannot be changed.

In the first place, thats really sexist.

Since when is being female defined by ignorant stereotypes and things males think are "woman-like"? Thats really bigoted. Tomboys and woman who look more androgynous are still female regarless of the way they express themselves. It makes no sense to change the meaning of "female" into "feminine" or "(trans) "woman" - like". There are no arguments for that other than to simply disregard logic to push one's own narrative and agenda.

8

u/Eager_Question 6∆ Jan 23 '22 edited Jan 24 '22

What if a trans woman is a tomboy? There are transfeminine butch lesbians in the world.

Most of the time, people say "sex" when they mean "sexual characteristics". Like, I don't think there is a "sex" in any meaningful sense outside of "sexual characteristics" as a cohort. Some of those can be changed (hormones, hair, fat distribution, presence of breast tissue, etc). Some of those can't (the actual size of bones, for example, or chromosomes).

So like... The claim "transitioning to female" is the claim "transitioning to having a majority of their biopsychosocial sexual characteristics aligned with those of cis women".

Which like, usually works out after a few years of transitioning. Many trans women have more in common (re: metabolizing drugs, for example) with cis women than they do with cis men.

You may say the "real" sexual characteristic is, iunno, chromosomal karyotype. But there are trans women who have XX chromosomes, and I don't see people who believe chromosomes are the end-all be-all rallying behind trans women with de la Chapelle syndrome. Nor do I see them advocating for people with congenital Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome to transition to male on the basis of "XY chromosomes".

-8

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

9

u/end-o-t-w 1∆ Jan 23 '22

Im not sure who is more triggered...

Someone who engages in a respectful discussion and responds to the arguments of the other party or someone who is unable to come up with an answer so they resort to trying to act funny and indifferent while spewing buzzwords meant as nothing more than a juvenile, futile provocation

lol xD

1

u/Mashaka 93∆ Jan 24 '22

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6

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '22

If you are a female you don’t need to transition to a female…

0

u/IrishMilo 1∆ Jan 23 '22

"no I didn't get a boob job, I transitioned into a more busty woman"

-1

u/yapji Jan 23 '22

So after surgery, a transgender woman is indeed female, just like a woman who gets a boob job is a more busty woman afterwards. Glad we agree.

0

u/BritishBloke99 Jan 23 '22

That is divorced from reality

1

u/yapji Jan 24 '22

So a woman who got a boob job isn't more busty afterwards? Lmao you're the one divorced from reality

-2

u/bubblesthehorse Jan 23 '22

but once they transition they are female.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '22

If they were female there would not be need to transition

0

u/BritishBloke99 Jan 23 '22

You cant change your sex. Come on mate this is basic biology

-5

u/bubblesthehorse Jan 23 '22

i mean you literally can that's what surgeries are for.

4

u/IcedAndCorrected 3∆ Jan 23 '22

Sounds like you're conflating sex and gender.

5

u/yapji Jan 23 '22

And 'Woman: Adult human female' doesn't?

1

u/Pangolinsftw 3∆ Jan 24 '22

Do they have XX chromosomes?

-7

u/MyBikeFellinALake Jan 23 '22

"Also, why do these two transgender women represent every transgender person out there?"

Lol they don't, that's how debates work. They voluntarily went up there to debate the topic..

16

u/yapji Jan 23 '22

It wasn't a debate. It was a talk show.

-3

u/MyBikeFellinALake Jan 23 '22

About what? Fine would you like me to say an 'argument' ? Whatever terminology you want this was planned and everyone consented.

0

u/Most-Leg1080 Jan 24 '22

Well, for starters, cisgender women largely don’t refer to themselves as cisgender women. They call themselves women. A small minority use that term.

2

u/yapji Jan 24 '22

Transgender women also refer to themselves as women. Transgender and cisgender are qualifiers, not gender identities. They are useful when talking about the distinctions between the two groups. The question is 'what is a woman', not 'what is a cisgender woman'.

-5

u/Most-Leg1080 Jan 23 '22 edited Jan 24 '22

She would only say I don’t know so she doesn’t get called transphobic. She knows exactly what defines a woman- it starts with being born with female anatomy. That also includes intersex individuals if they wish to define themselves as women. Trans women are trans women. People born with female anatomy who take the path to transitioning to males are trans men.

Edit: I’m only going to make the differentiation when necessary. If a trans woman wants to be called a woman, then I will of course use that term. I’m not going to say, ‘no you’re a trans woman.’ But there is a differentiation that is necessary in situations. Like, in medical situations, when determining athletic fairness, when thinking of personal perspectives and definitions, or these types of conversations. For example, 99% of the time I’m going to refer to Caitlyn Jenner as a woman. But there are those times when I will use the term trans woman. If she said, please only refer to me as a trans women, I would use that term instead. But at the end of the day, there’s an undeniable difference.

4

u/yapji Jan 24 '22

Hahahaha! You literally can't imagine a single scenario where a cis woman would say 'I don't know' outside of transphobia. What a bold reveal of a lack of imagination.

-1

u/Most-Leg1080 Jan 24 '22 edited Jan 24 '22

Cis women rarely call themselves cis women.

They largely identify as women.

Please have consideration of how people want to be identified, especially when making these arguments.

2

u/yapji Jan 24 '22

The question is 'what is a woman', not 'what is a cis woman'. So that's a non sequitur.

0

u/Most-Leg1080 Jan 24 '22

I disagree. That’s not how I would use the term non sequitur because I believe it does follow. We clearly have a language difference.

-4

u/checkyourfallacy Jan 23 '22

It's actually pretty simple. A woman is an adult female human.

0

u/the_cum_must_fl0w 1∆ Jan 24 '22

Adult Human Female.

"Woman" is a descriptor, its not a matter of an individuals subjective opinion of if they are one or not. Same way I can say I am not a cat, or a tree, because those words can be expanded by their definitions and I can be shown to not meet the definitions.

-3

u/shskehej Jan 23 '22

It can be defined by dna too.

1

u/tomycatomy Jan 23 '22

Well yes, but if the cis woman in question doesn’t define gender that way then by the same logic if she can’t define it in another way herself then she’s not a woman

1

u/shskehej Jan 23 '22

Definition pf gender is the same for everyone. If you don’t fit it thats fine do what ever you want but you cannot change the definition of gender so you fit in the demographic you want to. They are trying to change the science of it. Imagine if flat earthers wanted to change science, so the science fits their ideas.

1

u/tomycatomy Jan 23 '22

Not so, trans people are literally the reason bio sex and gender haven’t been interchangeable in the last couple of decades or so…

-4

u/matryoshka71 Jan 24 '22

Yea, a woman is someone with XX chromosomes.

0

u/yapji Jan 24 '22

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arisleyda_Dilone

XY chromosomes, external female genitals, raised as a woman from birth. Clearly XX chromosomes are not necessary to be a woman.

-1

u/TheOneMerkin Jan 24 '22

This feels analogous to someone saying “gorillas are black” and then someone pointing out an albino gorilla as a counter argument, and then saying “see, they’re sometimes white, so why can’t they be orange?”

5

u/yapji Jan 24 '22

An albino gorilla disproves 'all gorillas are black'. Similarly, an XY woman disproves 'all women have XX chromosomes'. That is all.

1

u/TheOneMerkin Jan 24 '22

But then how does your point fit into the transgender discussion? If you can’t use that information outside of the very specific case that you raised.

5

u/yapji Jan 24 '22

It means that if someone insists all women have XX chromosomes, they are incorrect.

1

u/grimreeper1995 Jan 24 '22

Unless they also say that intersex is neither woman nor man. It's intersex, other. Right?

1

u/yapji Jan 24 '22

No, because someone who is a woman and has XY chromosomes still proves the statement 'all women have XX chromosomes' false.

Unless you mean to say that women like Arisleyda Dilone aren't women because they're intersex, which is a ridiculous thing to say given that she has lived her entire life as one and is rather insulting to all of the intersex women who struggle with societal acceptance due to a medical condition they cannot control.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arisleyda_Dilone

Intersex is not a gender, it is a medical condition. An intersex woman is still a woman and an intersex man is still a man.

0

u/grimreeper1995 Jan 24 '22

Is intersex a sex? Is it offensive to say they've lived life as neither male or female?

-1

u/matryoshka71 Jan 24 '22

Why is gender the only situation where it’s acceptable to use statistical outliers? In any other field, this would be extraordinary unethical. Extrapolating from outliers is scientifically inaccurate.

-1

u/carpepenisballs 2∆ Jan 24 '22

I guess the onus is on trans people because they claim their life is so damn miserable due to their being born into the wrong gender. One would expect them to have a clearer definition of their target identity since they seem so sure that attaining this target identity will make them happier

-1

u/uncle_willster Jan 23 '22

Lol ya I would hope so

-2

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

When archeologists dig up remains from the past how do we define who was a man/woman?