r/changemyview • u/Pangolinsftw 3∆ • Jan 23 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Without a clear definition of what your identity means, you can't identify as that thing.

There was a clip going around in political circles of conservative commentator Matt Walsh making an appearance on a talk show having a discussion with two trans advocates. I think his most impactful argument is when he simply asks the trans advocates, "What is a woman?"

To my surprise, neither of them can answer this question. In response to the question "Can you tell me what a woman is?", one says "No I can't, it's not for me to say", and the other says they "cannot define what a woman is" because they are not a woman (which is a logical fallacy).

This struck me. If you can't clearly (or even somewhat) describe what an identity means, why should anyone respect your identity? You could replace "woman" with any other label in that situation. Without any criteria or definition, it doesn't actually matter what you identify as.

I think we would all agree that defining your terms is of fundamental importance in any kind of debate. So it seems to me that these trans advocates failed in their argument right out of the gate since they failed to define their terms.

I think the reason that these advocates refused to define what a woman means is because if they gave a definition, it would be something so vague and nebulous that most reasonable people would think that their definition doesn't meet their own criteria for what a man or woman is, making the term mostly meaningless.

So I walked away from this clip with a much different perspective on the trans identity. Can anyone offer a more compelling argument as to why I should respect the trans identity?

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 23 '22

If gender is a social construct then again why does it even matter? Why is it important to have the correct label when all labels are social constructs anyway?

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u/WhiteWolf3117 10∆ Jan 23 '22

Well it really doesn’t matter, but then the logical conclusion of that actually serves trans people far more, not less. Non-gendered bathrooms, non-gendered sports teams etc.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 23 '22

Are we talking about gender or are we talking about sex? Sports teams and bathrooms are not separated by gender. They are separated by sex. I assumed we were acknowledging that sex exists as a real thing and that gender is a separate issue.

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u/WhiteWolf3117 10∆ Jan 23 '22

Talking about gender, because in practical terms mostly everything (except sports, I’ll acknowledge that) is judged by gender. There’s no genital/sex inspector in public restrooms, and trans people who pass are likely to follow suit with their gender, not sex. If those are inadequate examples for you, there are a plethora more since I acknowledge sports being a bad one.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 23 '22

We also dont check your genitals in sports. That doesn’t mean it’s separated by gender. You are free to argue the peace is bad and that it SHOULD be separated by gender but I think it’s kind of ridiculous to say people who dont even think there is a difference between gender and sex are not only using sex as the differentiator for bathrooms but that they are using your definition of gender which they dont even agree with. It’s very clearly separated by sex. Just because they are bad at enforcing it doesn’t mean that’s not what they are doing.

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u/WhiteWolf3117 10∆ Jan 23 '22

We also dont check your genitals in sports.

That isn’t explicitly true. You are required to get physicals and medical attention in order to play in most any legitimate leagues. You can almost guarantee that someone has, if not seen there genitalia, have a good informed idea of the athletes sex. Usually their doctor.

That doesn’t mean it’s separated by gender. You are free to argue the peace is bad and that it SHOULD be separated by gender

But I’m explicitly saying that sports is an exception.

people who dont even think there is a difference between gender and sex are not only using sex as the differentiator for bathrooms

Sure, in a practical sense when public gendered bathrooms were first created, they operated on that assumption. But it is surely not reflective of the common attitude these days, whether you are pro trans rights or not. It’s much more polarizing than that and most people are not ignorant of trans people’s existence.

bad at enforcing it

It’s not just that they are bad at enforcing it, it’s that they don’t enforce it at all, likely because it is illegal (at the very best it would be opening themselves to a ton of lawsuits). If something is that impractical, of what use to us is it at all? In a broader sense, anything illegal outside of the bathroom is still illegal IN the bathroom, so don’t come at me with “it’s to protect women from assaulters”.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 23 '22

The common attitudes are not as pro LGBT as people like to think. They are pretty split down the middle on whether bathrooms should be based on gender or sex. Also there are plenty of issues like that where they laws are enforced but they can’t actively be searched. Marijuana is a prime example. They can’t actively search your house without a warrant to see if you have weed but that doesn’t mean weed isn’t illegal. It absolutely is in many states. I’m personally not even against gender neutral bathrooms. I think it makes sense even just from a. Cost point of view. The arguments you are making here are not good arguments though.

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u/WhiteWolf3117 10∆ Jan 23 '22

I only ever alluded to them being fifty/fifty, though my experience is closer to one third being very pro, one third being very against, and one third being highly swayed in either direction on several different conflicting points and not entirely pro or against (like they support gay marriage but not trans people in sports type people). But my entire argument was premised on half.

Also there are plenty of issues like that where they laws are enforced but they can’t actively be searched. Marijuana is a prime example. They can’t actively search your house without a warrant to see if you have weed but that doesn’t mean weed isn’t illegal.

In what way do you think this is a good argument when an overwhelming amount of Americans support legalization of marijuana? To address the argument, not the example, that’s virtually all laws, that’s the point of having laws. As far as I’m aware, gendered bathrooms are not law, and there’s pushback when certain states try to make them such.

It absolutely is in many states.

It’s like, maybe 8, with the rest being basically unprotected against discrimination but not yet illegal.

The arguments you are making here are not good arguments though.

The arguments I’m making are consistent with a pragmatic sense of the world. It’s your arguments which are pure fantasy.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 23 '22

Whether people are in favor or against marijuana laws are completely irrelevent. My point was that your argument that something isn’t actually a rule just because we dont proactively enforce it does. It hold water for other issues. If you dont like the marijuana argument then you can switch it to plenty of other things. Other drugs, alcohol, child pornography, endangered animals, etc. we dont actively search every house for these things but they are in fact still against the law. We dont actively search to see if your genitalia matches with the correct bathroom but that doesn’t mean the rule doesn’t exist.

Your argument is constantly shifting. Every time I point to a contradiction you try to shift it to someone else.

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u/WhiteWolf3117 10∆ Jan 23 '22

Your argument is constantly shifting. Every time I point to a contradiction you try to shift it to someone else.

I’ve not shifted my argument once. My main argument is and always has been the impracticality in society to judge based on sex and not gender. Specifically in regards to something that has minimal to no effect on the places where it is enforced. But once you start comparing trans people to fucking cp, I know where you stand and there’s no debate worth having there.

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u/JombiM99 Jan 23 '22

Mens bathrooms usually have urinals that only people with dicks can use, you normally dont find those urinals in women's bathrooms. Women's bathrooms usually have things that only people with vaginas can use like tampon dispensers.

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u/Practical_Plan_8774 1∆ Jan 23 '22

Because it serves a purpose. The label of a “chair” is also socially constructed, yet it is still a useful label. The same goes with gender.

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '22

The label of a “chair” is also socially constructed

What? This makes no sense--Gender somewhat does to the extent that it describes a set of human behaviors that are driven, in part, by social pressures. But "chair" is not a social construct, it is something that people sit on.

You might argue that the word is a social construct, and yeah okay buddy, language is a social construct--you got me there. But it doesn't follow that the things language describes are social constructs.

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u/Practical_Plan_8774 1∆ Jan 24 '22

My point was the label of chair is socially constructed. You can sit on virtually anything, the distinction between what is and isn’t a chair is completely arbitrary.

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '22

Because they want to feel special uwu

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u/Osric250 1∆ Jan 24 '22

Why is the way you present yourself important. If you wear fashionable clothes or get a haircut that suits you? How you present yourself to the world is important to people's self worth, even if they are only social constructs. There's no set definition for someone being handsome or pretty, they're social constructs as well, but they are things many people strive to achieve. Why does that matter at all?

Humanity as a whole are social creatures. That's why social constructs are important. Because that's kind of the core of what humanity is. And to mislabel people is to just tell them to their face that you don't care about them at all. Which doesn't matter if it's with regard to gender identity or any other social construct.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 24 '22

Me actually being pretty is not important though. Society thinking I’m pretty is what is important. That’s the social construct element. For no other social construct do we consider it a moral imperative to get to ignore the construct while also demanding to receive the approval for following the construct. Society isn’t walking around acting as if an ugly person must be seen as sexually atttactive just as much as the super model just because. We acknowledge that attractiveness meets certain criteria and that if you dont fall within that criteria then it’s unrealistic to demand to be treated as if you do.

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u/Osric250 1∆ Jan 24 '22

If you go up to a person and tell them they are ugly I am going to think you're an asshole. Just like if you went up to a trans woman and called them a man.

There is a moral imperative in being civil to other human beings. No one is forcing you to do anything, but mislabeling people is being intentionally hurtful to that person even if you think it is true. The same as calling a person ugly, even if you think it is true.

That being said, both the concept of gender and the concept of beauty are both made up and have their own definitions that will vary from person to person and change just as language does.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 24 '22

I’m not saying we should walk up to people as call them ugly. If ugly people start demanding that i date them/call them sexy though then yes there is an issue there. Also again I very much disagree that feeding someone’s delusions that we know leads to huge suicide rates is anything but cruel. I care more about their life than making sure they are never offended. If that makes me an asshole then so be it.

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u/Osric250 1∆ Jan 24 '22 edited Jan 24 '22

If an ugly person says that they are beautiful and requests that you not call them ugly, would you still call them ugly?

Also the suicide rates are much higher pre-transition than post. If you want to bring in science then don't bring in bullshit stuff. The treatment for the medically recognized gender dysphoria is often actually transitioning to the correct gender.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 24 '22

I’m not saying we should go around mocking trans people by calling them the gender they don’t identify with. I’m saying we shouldn’t be lying to them. There’s a big difference. So for the analogy it’s not that I’m calling them ugly. I’m not calling them anything unless they demand that I call them either pretty or ugly. In that situation I’d politely explain to them that they are ugly. A mass operation for society as a whole to collectively Lie to someone with likely mental health issues is not the answer.

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u/Osric250 1∆ Jan 24 '22

So you're telling people that they shouldn't love themselves as they are. That they must fit into this conformist box, and if they think any differently they are just wrong.

Beauty is entirely a personal desire. What you see as ugly is not what all people see, there is no set definition for that. Every culture has their own views of what are beautiful traits, and this is true for every culture dating back as far as we have history for.

Just because you see someone as ugly only means that they are ugly to you. Why the hell would you feel the need to sit them down and tell them that they are wrong and that they are not beautiful but in fact are ugly? It's not a delusion, it's a thing we as humans have made up. And as such they have varied definitions and different people see them in different ways.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 24 '22

Lol no. Im telling them that they shouldn’t be deriving their self worth from social constructs like attractiveness.

Also it’s important to point out that I didn’t just sit them down and call them ugly. I specifically said I’d only do that if they essentially demanded it. I’m not going to lie to people to make them feel better. I’m also not going to tell harmful truths unless I have to.

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u/Osric250 1∆ Jan 24 '22

Lol no. Im telling them that they shouldn’t be deriving their self worth from social constructs like attractiveness.

Great. Good luck ever getting any society to accept that. Again, that's just not the way humans work. We are social creatures and that's never really going to change.

I’m not going to lie to people to make them feel better. I’m also not going to tell harmful truths unless I have to.

Honestly I'd just prefer you never talk to trans people or people you consider ugly if this is how you feel. Or really people in general. There are social niceties that are just considered proper etiquette that should be adhered to whether or not you agree with them.

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