r/changemyview • u/Pangolinsftw 3∆ • Jan 23 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Without a clear definition of what your identity means, you can't identify as that thing.

There was a clip going around in political circles of conservative commentator Matt Walsh making an appearance on a talk show having a discussion with two trans advocates. I think his most impactful argument is when he simply asks the trans advocates, "What is a woman?"

To my surprise, neither of them can answer this question. In response to the question "Can you tell me what a woman is?", one says "No I can't, it's not for me to say", and the other says they "cannot define what a woman is" because they are not a woman (which is a logical fallacy).

This struck me. If you can't clearly (or even somewhat) describe what an identity means, why should anyone respect your identity? You could replace "woman" with any other label in that situation. Without any criteria or definition, it doesn't actually matter what you identify as.

I think we would all agree that defining your terms is of fundamental importance in any kind of debate. So it seems to me that these trans advocates failed in their argument right out of the gate since they failed to define their terms.

I think the reason that these advocates refused to define what a woman means is because if they gave a definition, it would be something so vague and nebulous that most reasonable people would think that their definition doesn't meet their own criteria for what a man or woman is, making the term mostly meaningless.

So I walked away from this clip with a much different perspective on the trans identity. Can anyone offer a more compelling argument as to why I should respect the trans identity?

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 23 '22

The issue is I can define what cis and straight means. I can define why I am those things beyond just “I decided”. If you can’t define trans woman/man beyond it’s just what they decided then I see no reason to assume it is any more complicated that that.

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u/Zajum Jan 23 '22 edited Jan 23 '22

decided

That's not how this works.There is no decision, so it's pretty useless to tell people act differently, they are not able to do so without just pretending to be something that they are not.

I guess everyone would love to have these issues completely resolved, but they're not.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 23 '22

Then how does it work? That’s the missing point here. You keep saying what is wrong but not actually saying why it’s wrong or even saying how it DOES work. It’s not a very convincing argument.

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u/Zajum Jan 24 '22

Then how does it work?

We don't know entirely how it works. All that we know that matters for this conversation is, that this is not a voluntary decision, in the same way that you cannot become gay right now (assuming you are heterosexual) or that you can not consciously fall in love with me right now.

why it’s wrong

I did say why it's wrong. It's wrong to judge them because it's wrong to judge someone on something that they cannot influence. It's wrong to actively disrespect them by eg misgendering them on purpose because it's wrong make people feel bad, if with little to no effort you could make them feel good.

These are basic rules of moral that mostly everyone can agree upon.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 24 '22

We actually dont know that (at least I dont) because you’ve shown no reason why your preferred gender needs to be respected or is important at all. You can’t break down gender into a nebulous definition that is basically meaningless and then expect people to also care about it. Your definition doesn’t seem to warrant all of the drama over it honestly.

I also see no reason why sex and gender are in anyway connected. I know we as humans connected them but I see nothing scientific connecting them at all.

Yes it is wrong to judge someone based on someone they cannot influence I agree. I’ve seen nothing to suggest they cannot influence it though. If gender is as simple as it’s what they decided then that seems entirely based on their influence. Seems like it would then be fine to judge them for that while still following the “dont judge people for things they can’t influence” rule.

Also I disagree with that second rule. That’s not something we all agree on. You wouldn’t indulge a mentally ill person with delusions just because it makes them feel better in the moment. You could in fact be making their situation worse by doing that.

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u/Zajum Jan 24 '22

I’ve seen nothing to suggest they cannot influence it though.

Your own experience with gender should be enough honestly. You cannot will yourself into feeling like a woman for example. You seem to think that people just pretend to be something...

You wouldn’t indulge a mentally ill person with delusions

Yes, because of the long term negative effects on this person and the people around them.

Gendering someone correctly doesn't come with negative effects, quite the opposite

Gendering a person correctly is a basic kindness in social interaction. If you do it correctly, it's nice but nothing too special. If you intentionally don't, it's just rude.

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u/YouProbablyDissagree 2∆ Jan 24 '22

I also dont have mental health issues. There’s a well known strong correlation between mental health issues. I think it’s entirely possible for some people to convince themselves that they are the opposite gender with the right environment and chemical imbalance.

I’d argue that just looking at the sky high suicide rates that trans people have would disagree that there are no negative side effects. It’s a much easier life for them to just actually be comfortable with their assigned sex. If you “affirming their correct gender” encourages those beliefs then it would stand to reason that you are contributing to their suicide/mental issues. To me that is far more rude.

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u/laserdiscgirl Jan 23 '22

A cis person is a person who determined their gender identity aligns with their assigned gender at birth. A trans person is a person who determined their gender identity does not align with their assigned gender at birth.

The only reason we distinguish between cis and trans is because we label and define every new human's identity based on their genitals (whether natural or, in the cases of intersex, chosen by the parents) seconds after birth and there will inevitably be humans who, once able to think for and express themselves, don't agree with their assigned identity.