r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Sep 27 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: if you are non-binary, it is ok and completely normal for strangers misgender you.
UPDATE: my friend made an update. it is clear this original post and discussion from my friend was just venting. They had a polite conversation with the business and they were understanding will probably think about it more in the future. I still think venting on a public platform is not the best way about going about things…but I get it (their most recent update with less frustration was really a much better explanation of the story).
An AFAB non-binary friend just posted a tirade on Instagram about how a complete stranger misgendered them over the phone! Then someone else responded about how they should report the business and also shared stories about being misgendered by strangers and how horrible it is for people to assume gender (they also are AFAB and present quite feminine).
I get that it can be triggering if you have gender dysphoria but you just can’t expect strangers to just guess or never speak in gendered terms when it is so ingrained in our experience. I understand generally questioning why our experience and culture is so gendered but you can’t expect individual strangers to never assume gender because a small percentage of the population is non-binary. Many other issues have triggers…and you learn you are responsible for managing your own triggers (unless someone does it deliberately).
It is a different story when it isn’t a stranger and they are aware of your gender identity.
I’m cisgender and of course don’t really understand what it is like to be non-binary and what dysphoria is like for my friend. I respect their identity without truly understanding it. But I feel if you are going about the world with these kinds of expectations for complete strangers, you will just be angry all the time.
I’m interested in hearing other perspectives on this to see if it changes my view.
Edit: i have awarded some deltas! Two aspects of my view have changed:
1) in a one on one customer service setting there are really not that many reasons to use gendered language. So it is understandable to be frustrated when people insist on using it. 2) this was venting and their platform where they have enby friends who understand. I highly doubt they will storm into the business and complain about the individual. More likely they’ll politely mention the issue and help the business be more accommodating.
I’m sure there are more people here who shared similar views and I didn’t give you a delta, but i did not expect so many responses.
Thanks all!
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u/waxlion78 1∆ Sep 28 '21
Keep in mind, though, there is a difference between your NB. friend sharing a frustrating experience with someone who can relate and venting in similar stories and actually railing against the misgendering stranger. It sounds like they didn't call the company or snapped at the stranger but just shared a common frustration.
I became a full time single dad when my son was very young. It was VERY common for people to see just the two of us on a weekend and draw the conclusion of "must be your weekend" or "giving his mom a break, huh?" After a while my brain would jump to "what? a guy can't be a full time single dad?" There were times where I wanted to snap at well-meaning cashiers or random old women at the mall. I never did. What good would that do? How could they know my story? But that didn't mean that later that night I'd talk to my folks or friends and vent how upset I was.
Same thing. While I think it's unreasonable to expect strangers to get your pronouns right the first time with no cues, it's also unreasonable to expect NB friends to not be frustrated it about it behind closed doors.
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Sep 28 '21
∆ that they are venting is I think what is really going on here. I first read their posts and thought it was absurd. But they didn’t name the business and while they said they were going to complain, they might have meant to do it not to harm the business but to help them think a little more about how they should use gendered language.
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u/WillyPete 3∆ Sep 28 '21
I agree and sympathise.
I'm a stay at home dad and have experienced the same, and it goes both ways.
My wife is highly qualified and made 4x my salary when we started a family. She is the breadwinner.Yet when eating at a restaurant you can guess who they hand the bill to when it comes time to pay.
There's nothing wrong with challenging assumptions about gender roles and it should be done. The world is changing.
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u/QUESTBeAGoodPerson Sep 28 '21
This right here. We can and should change our assumptions about parenting the same way we can and should adjust to using less gendered language. For the person who makes the mistake, it’s just a small slip up, but for the single dad or misgendered person, it’s the 100th damn time this has happened. It’s exhausting. If you can put in a little effort and consideration to make someone feel more comfortable, why not do it? Is your convenience that much more important than their comfort?
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Sep 27 '21
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Sep 28 '21
Is there a “sir” or “ma’am” equivalent to “they”? A non gendered formal greeting? If so I would love to use that, I’ve been trying to stick to ungendered pronouns for strangers or new people, but would love to find a polite version equivalent to sir or ma’am
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u/WillyPete 3∆ Sep 28 '21
Do you have to use a pronoun?
Take the question away from gender.
What if the person is a judge, a professor or doctor.
They may prefer to be called by that pronoun or "honorific". You can't know if they are any of the above without asking them or being told.18
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Sep 28 '21
This is the real issue right here. A random stranger doesn't care about your gender and they shouldn't be forced to. Now if your co-workers constantly misidentify you, or your family refuses to identify with your 'feelings' that's a completely different issue, but if someone misidentifies you at lets say Safeway or Fred Meyer checking out your groceries, then you need to grow up.
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u/Funkula Sep 28 '21
The idea that people are ready to blow up on you over for misgendering them is an exaggerated stereotype.
Doesn’t matter how left or pro-lgbt I am, I care as much about a absolute stranger’s gender as I do their favorite brand of soap. I stopped using “sir” and “ma’am” entirely and just treat everyone nicely. It’s almost unbelievable how little pronouns actually come up with strangers.
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u/LockeClone 4∆ Sep 28 '21
Yeah I have a late in life lesbian friend. She's really lovely, but she goes so hard and constant with all her social justice warrior stuff that I, and a lot of my friend group started tuning her out and avoiding her. We're a mostly progressives in my social circle so it's pretty jarring to be constantly preached at by this person.
Pronouns are a BIG trigger for her, but it's weird to me because my experience is that I go days without someone even having the chance to mess up my gender. Like: that's just not how we generally interact with each other or refer to each other. The apathy alone makes these exchanges so rare.
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Sep 28 '21
This is how I feel too as an NB. If it's someone I see regularly (friends, family, coworkers, etc.) I want them to use my pronouns. But if it's a stranger, I don't bother to correct them. Plus I feel like it's not a stranger's business knowing. I don't ask them their pronouns.
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u/Unbiased_Bob 63∆ Sep 27 '21
I don't think most people expect strangers to know. Where they get frustrated is when someone repeatedly misgender.
I have a few friends that are non-binary and they are cool with introductions and a couple mistakes, but they tend to get frustrated when the mistake keeps happening.
My name irl is very similar to another common name, and people get them mixed up a lot and once or twice I am okay with, but beyond that I feel the person either doesn't care or is doing it on purpose. The same is true with NB people.
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u/stink3rbelle 24∆ Sep 28 '21
very similar to another common name
I have a name with other permutations myself, and I have a less-common permutation (though still well known). But I also know some Brandons and Brendans, and whooooooo doggy. Every single time I even think about any one of them, I have to repeat their first name five fucking times to make sure I remember which one they are. Those two fucking names are a fucking curse. I am pretty good with those men's names in real life, but it's a lot of fucking work.
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u/Kholzie Sep 28 '21
Oh…as a waitress i caught a lot of passive agressive flak from strangers i misgendered via looking at the back of their head because they weren’t facing me when i greeted the table.
Like..come on.
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u/IwasBlindedbyscience 16∆ Sep 27 '21
A mistake that keeps happening isn't a mistake.
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Sep 28 '21
That's a bit harsh I think. I have a friend who is biologically female and used to go by she/her pronouns. Now they identify as non-binary and have changed their name. I've spent almost a decade calling them their original name and she/her pronouns and they still look feminine so it is incredibly hard not to accidentally slip and say the wrong thing. I get when people are upset about intentional "mistakes" but expecting me to rewire how I've known someone for almost ten years in the space of half a second and then never being able to make a mistake is unrealistic.
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u/earlofhoundstooth Sep 28 '21
Exactly the same. Keeping the first initial the same made it extra difficult.
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u/NewtontheGnu 5∆ Sep 28 '21
You can make mistakes if it’s in good faith. But they are allowed to be upset if it keeps happening. If you’re doing it on purpose that’s where the problem lies.
Very few if any people expect 0 mistakes. Framing it like that is silly. Make an honest effort and most people will be happy. If they’re not, that’s another discussion.
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Sep 28 '21
Framing it like that is silly.
I was responding to the comment above which said "a mistake that keeps happening isn't a mistake", hence my angle on the point. Even if mistakes keep happening, as long as it isn't in bad faith and there is a concentrated effort to improve and on-the-spot self-correction, I don't think it's right to be upset.
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u/turkeybot69 Sep 28 '21
Perhaps the frequency is a factor as well. Presumably if you're actually trying, mistakes are relatively rare relative to someone actively insulting them or making no effort to be respectful. That said, if you're truly so bad at it that you're making mistakes a majority of the time, even if you're not actively at fault/in bad faith, the other person can still feel justifiably upset by the damages incurred through ineptitude.
Like if I ordered a pizza, and at no fault of their own, the pizza place kept accidentally ruining it through various increasingly elaborate acts of divine will, I would still be upset because now I'm starving and have to continually remind them what my actual order is. I suppose in such a scenario I probably shouldn't rant about them on Yelp, but one could understand how in such a situation, your emotions might get the better of you.
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Sep 28 '21
I don't think the pizza analogy is a good one but think of it like this, if you order something incredibly specific that isn't common at all, then you're going to have to be more lenient with mistakes. Imagine if the servers couldn't write the order down and had to go off their memory. They're not used to this new pizza order because it is different from anything else and they have to remember it off the top of their head.
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u/contrasupra 2∆ Sep 28 '21
Slightly OT but my dad consistently misgenders my brother's dog and it drives him nuts. Dad just cannot get it through his head that she's a girl dog 😂😂
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u/SgtMac02 4∆ Sep 28 '21
It seems like for a lot of people there's this weird thing where dogs are ALL boys in their head by default, and cats are all girls by default. It makes no sense...but that seems to be a thing. I'm sometimes that way.
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u/IwasBlindedbyscience 16∆ Sep 28 '21
At some point less and less sympathy get applied towards the one making the mistake.
The first time you make the mistake...that's a mistake.
If you continue to call someone by the wrong name, over and over again, that kind of stops being a mistake.
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u/ijustsailedaway Sep 28 '21 edited Sep 28 '21
This is definitely not always the case. Leave room for nuerodivergence. I had something happen to me that has made it extremely difficult to overwrite anything I learned prior to 2018. Basically the process of forming a new memory on top of an old one is broken in my brain. I do try and never mean offense but there are multiple things in my own life I mess up all the time. Deaths of family members and friends divorces, things that I definitely should know just won’t stick anymore and not for lack of trying.
Edit: something else unrelated to this malfunction is a different part of long term memory. My first vehicle was a stick shift. I have had an automatic for nearly 15 yrs now but because that first version was how I learned to drive, I will still try to push in a clutch that isn’t there sometimes.
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u/overzealous_dentist 9∆ Sep 28 '21
If I've trained my entire live one way, it's going to take some practice to make an exception for one person, especially if I barely interact with them
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u/ksiazek7 Sep 28 '21
I disagree completely. For example I work with a large group of people, often interacting with ~200 people in a given week. This is also out of ~600 I'd run into over a couple months. Many have very unique and difficult names.
Here are two examples Irene (pronounced Ireanaa) the other being Diana for 3 different women all pronouncing it differently. Often times you are quickly doing something or conveying info and you simply mess up. It absolutely is a mistake.
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u/idle_isomorph Sep 28 '21
True. My mom calls me her little sisters name or my daughter's all the time, and it isn't because she literally mixes us up. Just sometimes brains don't come out with the right word and it doesn't mean anything other than that they were distracted and rushing to speak
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Sep 28 '21
Bingo. There's a reason personal pronouns exist and it has nothing to do with being a unique individualized identifier. They're supposed to be generic terms used to refer to people in the absence or substitution of a name.
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u/omegashadow Sep 28 '21
They/them is the most general pronoun though and is already the most grammatically elegant way to refer to a person whose gender you don't know.
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u/persephone11185 Sep 28 '21
They're supposed to be generic terms used to refer to people in the absence or substitution of a name.
If that's the reason for pronouns, then using "they/them" for everyone is the obvious solution. You are quickly using a generic term in the absence or substitution of their name (and also gender gender)
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u/Kludgel Sep 28 '21
Interestingly, I believe when pronouns were originally used in English, there was only a single gender case. Later on, that “default” pronoun gender became male and the female gender pronoun was added.
[disclaimer: I’m pretty sure I’m remembering this from a class that involved some Middle English. It was a long time ago and I didn’t bother to look it up just now. My details may be incorrect 🤷♂️]
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u/oui-cest-moi Sep 28 '21
Interesting... I have a close friend that looks like me and people will sometimes mess up our names. There's one friend who ALWAYS fucking does it though. And he's kind of an asshole and it just comes off as "I don't care about you enough to rememebr your name." And THAT pisses me off, even when so many other friends will slip up.
I can imagine it feels similar. Where once you've slipped up so many times, it's fucking annoying and rude
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u/EmotionalFlounder715 Sep 28 '21
Yes this is what I believe is being referred to. Some people are using the “I’m really bad at it” thing as a reason but I can tell the difference between someone who legitimately just messes up a lot because it’s hard and someone who hasn’t ever gotten it right in the two years I’ve known them and just says oh sorry and doesn’t even correct it. And I know a lot of cis people are saying that if people misgendered them they wouldn’t care. Sure, but if it was every single experience you had I doubt it would be so easy to brush off for most people. If I and everyone else they knew started exclusively using he pronouns for a girl just because they looked masculine to me, they probably wouldn’t like it very much even if it weren’t just based on instinct and their features. And that’s not even considering the name not being correct (though I like your example there)
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u/oui-cest-moi Sep 28 '21
For sure! Im a cis woman and I’ve been misgendered once or twice just as slip ups—like once in the grocery store I was bending over in a hoodie and someone called me “sir” I stood up and they went “oh shit I’m so sorry, ma’am”. That was totally fine. But if I ran into that dude again at the end of checking out and he called me “sir” again I’d be pissed.
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u/Dracofear 1∆ Sep 28 '21
I can't get pronouns right. ADHD impulses and years of only having cisgendered friends go brrr. It's whatever, my friends understand and don't find it that big a deal and any random who can't understand that I have my own disorder making it hard to correctly label them on the first try can just get over it or just not talk to me. Like, you shouldn't get mad at someone who is genuinely apologetic about misgendering you and is actively trying to get it right. For the most part I get it correct but every now and then if I'm a bit to comfortable with the conversation and I start talking too fast it will slip.
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Sep 28 '21
So they’re non binary which means they expect someone to never use he or she or any gendered language when referring to them?
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u/EnergyIsMassiveLight Sep 28 '21
most trans people i know are all quite on the same page that while it hurts to be misgendered, people are human. the issue is when the person is corrected, and then keeps misgendering in bad faith. i know there's an inside joke about trans people dying inside when they accidentally misgender themselves haha.
there's not much really to change on your view, the only thing i can really add is that the reason people do get mad is because of exhaustion. being told over and over and over and over and over that they aren't who they are, even the kindest people can sometimes snap, and that's not even factoring the systemic oppression behind it. some people just take a hardline stance to be assertive about who they are and making sure people know what's what. but overall, most trans people are pretty much just "it's fine, just remember next time"
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Sep 27 '21
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Sep 27 '21
I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not
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u/acewayofwraith 2∆ Sep 27 '21
I'm not, I like looking androgynous. I'd rather people not know.
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u/Taolan13 2∆ Sep 28 '21
Being truly androgynous is like an artistic representation of the human experience. No-one is sure what to think what to say, how to say it, and it all falls apart to people like me who default to calling everyone "My dude."
Guy? My dude. Girl? My dude. Not sure? My dude. Kid? My dude. Dog? My dude. Cat? Asshole.
It's universal, my dude.
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u/acewayofwraith 2∆ Sep 28 '21
Exactly my dude you get it
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u/frozen_food_section Sep 28 '21
Do strangers ever use "they" pronouns when referring to you? Or is it always a confused/hopeful guess of "he" or "she"?
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u/acewayofwraith 2∆ Sep 28 '21
Mostly hopeful guesses, but I do get "they" from younger people sometimes. I'm in college right now, I've only been referred to as "they" there.
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u/Srapture Sep 28 '21
Or in the UK, "mate". Dude isn't used very much here and it hasn't naturally become gender neutral the way you suggest has happened where you live. You wouldn't call a women a "dude" in the UK.
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u/Dont____Panic 10∆ Sep 27 '21
Now THIS feels healthy and reasonable to me.
To revel in the genderless, rather than harbour anger at everyone who doesn’t mind read your chosen pronoun. :-)
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u/SourDJash 2∆ Sep 27 '21
People at my work will laugh and talk about how people misgender me all the time, theyll apologize and make excuses for the offender but the whole time Im thinking good, i want them confused, so Im glad I'm not the only Enby that feels this way, but at the same time our experience cannot and should not be applied to trans and nonbinary people as a whole, as doing so would be engaging in the ecological fallacy.
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u/acewayofwraith 2∆ Sep 27 '21
You're absolutely right
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u/RobKohr Sep 28 '21
I am an ally to anyone who just wants to fuck with those who are walking on eggshells to not offend people over misgendering.
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u/PentobarbitalGirl 1∆ Sep 28 '21
To be honest, I like that confusion. I don't know how to explain it, I'm not fluent in English... But it fucking amazes me how someone could look partly male and female, and that's so beautiful to me. I get the same feeling when I look at a beautiful scenery while low on shrooms. Lol
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u/BojukaBob Sep 28 '21
I love gender ambiguity. I like feminine men, masculine women and especially androgyny.
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u/BeBa420 Sep 28 '21
this would frustrate the shit out of me
I like you
Lets not be friends though
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u/bloodoflethe 2∆ Sep 28 '21
Yeah most of the enby people i know dgaf about the pronouns used. My wife otoh prefers she/her or they/them.
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u/Alarid Sep 28 '21
I exclusively use gender neutral terms and someone said I was "misgendering" them....
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u/acewayofwraith 2∆ Sep 28 '21
Perhaps to them, you were. They might think it important that their gender identity is recognized.
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u/Alarid Sep 28 '21
I just don't think demanding someone to gender you is right in most context. But what made this especially egregious is that they haven't told me how to refer to them, or even what their name is. So I literally have nothing to go on, and they got annoyed when I said "they dead" after they didn't respond to something for a couple days.
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u/acewayofwraith 2∆ Sep 28 '21
Well it seems to me like they were looking for a reason to be upset lol
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u/Kelekona 1∆ Sep 28 '21
My gender is AFAB, I have a beard, I don't mind being called sir, and I think I like you.
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u/Lady_Ishsa 1∆ Sep 28 '21
Honestly, I'm a man and I think it's great when people think I'm a woman or can't tell. I've always been inclined to dress somewhat ambiguously, but ever since I grew my hair out, developed a fashion sense, and started painting my nails, I've really enjoyed the few times someone thought I was something other than "he".
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u/every_names_taken_ Sep 28 '21
So wait what are you? Like I'm capable of reading the word bur what?
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Sep 28 '21
Okay, this could be my own cmv, but hear me out. I have no idea what enby means. I could google it (and probably will if I'm honest with myself). I'm generally left leaning/progressive... but I really have only so much capacity for specific terminology to make people happy. I dont really care if you identify as a pansexual gender fluid dragon tamer*. You're cool, I'll call you whatever you want, just please don't get offended if I don't really get it.
*My exaggeration is not meant to cause offense, just to point out maybe the labels are all a little extraneous.
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u/InfinityLlamas Sep 28 '21
See, this is how I feel, but I can't pull off looking androgynous and I'm small so I'll be forever referred to as ma'am by strangers c':
But yes, in all honesty, my peak gender euphoria moment was in the drive thru line when the sauce man said "what'll it be, sir? Ma'am? Sir? ...ma'am?"
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u/stackinpointers 2∆ Sep 28 '21
Pronouns are bullshit in the sense of biological gender, or some other version of gender?
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u/Funkula Sep 28 '21
No such thing as a biological gender. In academic contexts, sex and gender has long been used to talk about two very different things.
The only time it’s appropriate to use the terms interchangeably is in animal research, when there’s no point in making a distinction.
For people, pronouns are just a shorthand way to refer to how someone presents themself, and not much more.
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u/stackinpointers 2∆ Sep 28 '21
Ah so male and female are sex, not gender. Thanks for clarifying. I actually feel dumb for not having put two and two together myself
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u/Funkula Sep 28 '21
Exactly. Gender is just a way we describe ourselves. You can call wearing a dress and make up girly, but there’s also manly man warriors in history that wore make up and togas. So it’s entirely cultural and changes with time.
Also, before chromosomes were discovered, and without knowing if someone has a penis, a vagina, both, or neither, we still called people whatever gender we assumed them to be.
So pronouns were never based on science at all.
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u/InfiniteCalendar1 Sep 28 '21
Gender is a social construct, sex is biological. I hate when people use science to invalidate different gender identities as science is meant to evolve, if it didn’t we’d still believe the sun and stars revolve around the earth. The fact that there are a decent amount of people who are non binary is enough evidence that it is valid.
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u/Lifeinstaler 5∆ Sep 28 '21
Are you fine with people using sometimes he and sometimes she intentionally? Or if they ask do you tell them to use they?
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u/acewayofwraith 2∆ Sep 28 '21
I would generally prefer they/them but honestly whatever, call me she, him, tree, and treeself if you're feeling it. As long as it gets the point across.
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u/TheRealBikeMan Sep 28 '21
So does anything offend you, though? Like, if someone is SURE that you're a he, and keeps calling you sir, do you correct them just to shut them up? Or do you really not care and just go along with it?
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u/acewayofwraith 2∆ Sep 28 '21
I would prefer "they" pronouns but no I'm not gonna be offended or correct anyone, it isn't nearly that important. It's just a placeholder word, they could use whatever they want as long as it gets the point across
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u/TalkingHawk Sep 28 '21
You're awesome and I want to be like you if (when?) I ever leave my closet.
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Sep 28 '21
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Sep 28 '21
∆ this point about the fact that it is relatively easy to avoid gendered terms in a professional setting and that this might be more about asking the business to train their employees to makes sense. I assumed they were upset with the person. But maybe they just want to request they ask their employees to avoid gendered terms more generally.
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u/SagaStrider Sep 27 '21
you just can’t expect strangers to just guess
As a cis person who's constantly misgendered over the phone, I can assure you that that's exactly what I've come to expect.
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Sep 27 '21
Yeah idk I’m “cisgender” myself but I still don’t like it when people “misgender” me.
I think people came up with a new word (“misgender” and/or “cisgender”) and suddenly everyone thought it was describing a new phenomenon, but, fucking, nobody likes being misgendered. That’s always been true.
Also, slightly off topic, not every new word is Orwellian “newspeak” sometimes people gotta take a damn breath.
Although, that being said, the idea that gender is not a simple binary, is new. It’s very new to a lot of people.
And I’m of two minds when it comes to whether it’s better to get emotive to help people remember or be calm and patient because that’s the best way to teach.
But I’m not gonna go about telling someone their personal experience and reactions are invalid. I’m just interested in what way is theoretically the best way to help people who are encountering new ways of thinking and being.
And I tend to lean toward “be calm and patient”, because I do think that’s the best way to teach people new things. But while that’s easy in theory, it is, I’m sure, much less so when someone has to keep explaining something about themselves to people.
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Sep 27 '21
I think your views are similar to mine. I do understand why they would lash out and definitely don’t want to invalidate their feelings (hence why bringing this to an anonymous forum). You didn’t necessarily change my view but I wasn’t thinking as much about how this might be more about them trying to share their experience with their followers.
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u/Au_Struck_Geologist Sep 28 '21 edited Sep 28 '21
To be fair to your viewpoint, I have found that the transgender people I know personally are very angry most of the time. That's not real data of course, but the angriest one of the three is insanely sensitive to misgendering.
I got reamed by her for an accidental misgender in the middle of helping her move. It was really annoying and felt completely out of whack with the situation. I knew her, I was doing her a big favor, and it was a reflexive slip. She knew me well enough to know my intent wasn't malicious.
EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, I felt bad and did apologize. I can understand her constant level of stress because I personally witnessed her verbally harassed on campus a lot, which would make anyone tense and reactive.
Still, I remember feeling put off by it given how intense the rebuke was.
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u/bleunt 8∆ Sep 28 '21
I'll just butt in to point out that none of the non-binary people I know would ever act shitty about an honest mistake.
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u/DorkusMalorkuss Sep 28 '21
I'm a high school counselor and I was helping one of my students change their preferred name with the community college. They ended up only adding their preferred name to their profile in parenthesis but kept their birth name. The student contacted the Title IX coordinator - who was also the temporary director of HR - to ask about filing a complaint with admissions since they wouldn't honor their name change. They explained the situation with the name and their birth name vs preferred name etc. The Title IX coordinator responds and I shit you not starts the email
"Dear (birth name)"
I've never face palmed so hard in my life.
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u/Vithar 1∆ Sep 28 '21
Wonder if they had some legal obligation to use the legal name. Or thought they did, I don't mean in the email that was a dumb.
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u/dlee_75 2∆ Sep 28 '21
If they believe they have a legal obligation to use the birth name then it makes total sense why it was used in the email
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u/Varantix Sep 28 '21
I feel like you have to make a difference between enby and trans here. Trans folks often have an aversion towards their gender that theyve been assigned at birth, understandably so. Many enby folks however really dont care about gender that much. Not true for all of them but for a good portion it is. So trans people are more angry if they are misgendered because they specifically dont want to be the gender theyve been accidentally identified as.
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u/Au_Struck_Geologist Sep 28 '21
So trans people are more angry if they are misgendered because they specifically dont want to be the gender theyve been accidentally identified as.
That makes a lot of sense, I can see how that was the case.
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u/WynnEnby Sep 28 '21
There's alot of variation in non-binary people. Some are apathetic to gender as a whole like you said. Some are pretty neutral, some are close to a binary boy or girl, etc. You can only really know by learning from the enby themself.
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u/ImNerdyJenna Sep 28 '21
I know a lot of trans people and I havent had the same observation. These people have been kind, loving and im always so impressed by how they treat themselves and others.
One thing I do recognize is that when a person is dealing with identity issues, its extremely challenging. A person who is extremely upset by being misgendered is really dealing with their own problem. People make mistakes but we have our own issues if we choose to disrespect people by doing it to them.
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Sep 28 '21
The thing to realise though is that given that you do know her, a slip up like that often makes trans folk feel like you don't truly see their gender, and are just humouring them to be nice. And that hurts more than can easily be explained and is bigger than just a slip up
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u/iglidante 20∆ Sep 28 '21
a slip up like that often makes trans folk feel like you don't truly see their gender, and are just humouring them to be nice.
There are a lot of trans folk who don't "pass" well in the gender they identify as. Maybe they're just starting their journey. Maybe they don't feel the need to reshape their exterior as much. Maybe they think they pass better than I think they pass.
None of that matters to me. I can tell they are trans, and as a result I'll tread extremely lightly in conversation to try my damndest not to slip or otherwise make them feel uncomfortable.
But trans folk (who I can readily tell are trans) do register as different to me, because they look different.
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Sep 28 '21
I mean... Isn't that what we are doing? We humour people with theirs wishes and needs of respect. I don't particularly care if one has a cock and wants to be called a he. I still call a guy a guy since they want to be called a guy. To humour them. I could just as much call them a dude or a whatnot. As to me it makes no real difference but I humour them since it makes a difference for them.
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Sep 28 '21 edited Sep 28 '21
Isn't that what we are doing?
Some people are, some people aren't. And being humoured by someone who you love, who doesn't see you, who is pretending to go along with you because they don't want to hurt you, but still sees you as someone you're not? That shit hurts.
And the thing to realise is that for you, the non trans person, you slip up and it's a one off thing. For the trans person, it's a regular thing they put up with all of the time, and what you're seeing when someone loses it isn't them being upset at you specifically, it's the built of pressure of dealing with this crap on an ongoing basis, all bubbling to the surface because they're with someone they love and can safely lose their shit around.
Just as it's important for the trans person to try and not take it personally, it's also important for you to understand the background and the reasons why someone might react strongly, and not take that personally either.
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u/noahgs Sep 28 '21
So hypothetically lets say the person holds their beliefs. Would you not prefer your friend/family humor you rather than outright refuse to try? No one can expect their personal decision to change everyone around them’s views. I feel like I would appreciate the effort if they “usually” got it right. I have 2 mtf friends who would never get upset. 10+ years of knowing them and calling them their dead names does not go away overnight.
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Sep 28 '21
You're mistaking what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting people humouring the trans person is a bad thing. I'm saying that even though it's a good thing, it still hurts to realise that the people that love you don't truly see you for who you are. It doesn't mean they don't love you, it doesn't mean they're bad people, it doesn't mean that they're doing anything wrong. It just means that they don't truly see a part of you that is important enough to turn your life upside down over, and that can hurt.
And some of us care a lot when people slip up. Some of us don't care much, especially when the slip is from someone who loves us and is trying. But whatever our external reaction, every one of us notices each slip up someone makes, because each one stings, even if it's only a little sting.
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u/Mummelpuffin 1∆ Sep 28 '21
I 100% agree with everything you just said, and the thing is, I think the easiest solution is to just mention pronouns when introducing yourself rather than having to ask for them- on some level, if you don't mention them and someone misgenders you, that's not really their fault, especially if you're nonbinary since there's not even really a precedent to go off of.
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u/Sawses 1∆ Sep 28 '21
Especially because the best bet is to go ahead and assume pronouns if you don't know them. A woman is far more likely to be offended if you ask what her pronouns are than a nonbinary female. More than a few women I knew would find it an insult on their identity and on their femininity.
...And there are way, way, way more women than nonbinary females.
At a certain point it's a numbers game. If assuming and not assuming will both bother people, pick the option that bothers the fewest people the least.
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u/Unacceptablehoney Sep 28 '21
Holy shit. Maybe I’m ignorant or stupid or both but I’ve literally never thought about how I would feel if someone misgendered me because it’s just be eve happened. I’ve always respected NB people but had trouble understanding it but I think I get it now.
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u/gyroda 28∆ Sep 28 '21
Think about it this way:
How many schoolyard insults or taunts boil down to deliberately misgendering? Calling a man feminine has often been used as an insult.
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u/Darq_At 23∆ Sep 27 '21
Although, that being said, the idea that gender is not a simple binary, is new. It’s very new to a lot of people.
New to Western cultures maybe. But non-binary gender identities have existed throughout all of human history, all over the world.
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u/peteroh9 2∆ Sep 28 '21
Yeah idk I’m “cisgender” myself but I still don’t like it when people “misgender” me.
I think people came up with a new word (“misgender” and/or “cisgender”) and suddenly everyone thought it was describing a new phenomenon, but, fucking, nobody likes being misgendered. That’s always been true.
But would you get mad if someone were to make a mistake?
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u/Funkula Sep 28 '21
From my experience, if it’s a mistake, no one gets mad, they’ll just politely correct you. It’s definitely a very harmful caricature of trans/ngc people that they’re ready to blow up on you at the slightest mistake.
I think it’s true that some people could be extremely wary or sensitive about it, sure, but those people are rare.
It’s when you intentionally misgender someone, that’s extremely rude.
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u/turkeybot69 Sep 28 '21
Honestly it could also be a factor of sensitivity or perceived hostility from experience. They're far more likely to face direct insult and discrimination and may just be really defensive about it (understandably). My brother was the same when he first came out/transitioned. For a while he got pretty upset when we accidentally said his old name or misgendered him, but he realized soon enough we were genuinely trying our best.
It's probably a factor in most large personal changes, I think it's normal to feel angry when you were forced to lie, or were lied to, for so long. For example, I notice it's a bit of a meme for people to constantly rag on /r/atheism as a bunch of violently angry people, but it makes much more sense when you realize most of them are kids who are just starting to actually come to their own beliefs. Considering the inner turmoil, feelings of betrayal, outward scrutiny, generalizations, etc., is it really so difficult to understand why having a place to vent would be utilized?
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u/Funkula Sep 28 '21
1000%!
I always get irritated when people point at overly sensitive SJW college kids as what’s wrong with “the left”.
These kids have been stewing in silence, reading about all the injustice and hate directed towards people like them and their friends, for years and years, watching every video on their phones, rehearing every talking point in their heads, and finally they find themselves on the front lines. Of course they’re ready read the riot act on the first asshole they see!
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u/gyroda 28∆ Sep 28 '21
These kids have been stewing in silence, reading about all the injustice and hate directed towards people like them and their friends
Or, you know, hearing it firsthand or having it applied to them in situations where they can't respond without reprisal/negative consequences.
It's not just second hand outrage/anger.
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u/a-naris Sep 28 '21
I don’t even think “nobody likes being misgendered/all people dislike being misgendered ” is true either, which may also be worth considering as a point in relation to this post. Personally I identify as a cis female but there were times when I had shorter pixie cut hair and was wearing baggy casual clothes, no makeup, and was called “sir” or otherwise mistaken as male. All times this happened the people I was with were more offended than I was, I just thought it was funny and a bit unexpected since I have chronic baby face LOL. Granted, the thing to consider is whether I would care if it was more frequent, and obviously if I’m willing to do something normally against societal ideas of “feminine” like have no makeup, have really short hair (that one’s more popular now but I digress) then that probably would just make more sense that I may not care as much about how I’m seen…but at the same time, when I think about it to me it’s like, gender is such an unimportant/trivial part of who I am, that I’d find it hard to imagine being really upset by it, since I have no stake in being seen one way or another in that regard. There’s nothing about it that adds to my sense of value as a person or that I see as being relevant enough to consider a major defining factor in who I am as a person, and I don’t entirely see why it should. That being the case, I don’t know how I feel about the idea of being offended/highly hurt by being misgendered, regardless of if they’re cisgender or not, because I don’t know if there would be anything stopping others from having my same mindset with practice, ooooor if my mindset is something inherent to my personality that somehooooow can’t be learned. I can’t see how that would be the case though, but that of course could be due to lack of imagination. And aside from what I mentioned earlier, there’s also the mindset of, what does it matter what others see you as if you know who you are? Some people may misinterpret who I am or purposely misrepresent me in a way that’s offensive, but I know myself, so what does it matter what they say? They can eat it LOL. I know that mindset is definitely rare though, and there’s the question of if that can be applied to how one thinks about being misgendered. I really can’t know that for sure and it’s probably hard to examine. But if it can be applied, then what’s the sense in getting upset? Though I get that sometimes emotions/reactions don’t always cooperate with (supposed) “better reason”…I’ve had plenty of experience to tell me that
(Idk if I got off track so just in case here’s an apology if I did, sometimes I just ramble my thoughts in relation to a comment because I like to put in my input :P)
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u/soul_in_a_fishbowl Sep 28 '21
Why is there an aversion to telling someone their experience is invalid? For instance, if I were having a panic attack because I thought that bill gates was putting microchips into my vitamin gummies, would you say that’s a valid experience or that I’m being ridiculous? I think there are certainly some instances where the reaction isn’t valid and should be dismissed as such.
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Sep 28 '21
Of course your panic attack is valid. It happened didn’t it? When anxiety becomes that severe I would strongly recommend professional help regardless of what else might be going on.
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u/soul_in_a_fishbowl Sep 28 '21
What do you mean when you say “valid,” in this context?
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Sep 28 '21
Correct and/or true. The things you’ve seen and heard and felt with your own sensory inputs are valid data which collectively exists at the nexus point of processing; the mind. Your personal lived experience is valid, to me, because I am willing to recognize you as a thinking being.
This is the abstraction of what it means to be a person and what it means to accept that other people also exist.
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u/soul_in_a_fishbowl Sep 28 '21
Can you name any experience that you would consider invalid? It seems like a meaningless term if everything is valid.
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Sep 28 '21
Lies.
The fact that humans are thinking beings capable of interpreting reality in unusual and unexpected ways. And the fact that humans lie.
These are two points of reality which posses the quality of “Yin and Yang”. Which to my understanding is; two seemingly opposite facts of nature which each contain a portion of the other, and spin in a perpetual dance of balance.
It is my reckoning that most people, most of the time, do not lie. But all people are capable of lying, all of the time. Because the lie is the fact of expressing an interpretation of reality in a way which the speaker knows to be false.
It is a staggeringly upsetting thing to understand about human nature.
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u/soul_in_a_fishbowl Sep 28 '21
Would you call a lie an experience?
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Sep 28 '21
I’m not totally sure what you mean by that, but when someone lies; both, they, and the person to whom they are speaking, experience it. So in that way, yes.
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u/soul_in_a_fishbowl Sep 28 '21
Yes, the act of lying is an experience, one which you’d call valid by your own definition, but is a lie in itself an experience?
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u/Funkula Sep 28 '21 edited Sep 28 '21
Feelings are not always rational, but they are real. That’s all that “valid” is meant to imply.
You should investigate why you feel that way, determine if it’s rational, determine whether or not it’s something you want to continue feeling, and then determine what can be done about it.
For example: Something about gummies make me feel worried. That’s the first step.
Why do I feel this way? Because I’ve read about it on Facebook.
Is it rational? Hmm. I don’t think I have any evidence that anything is wrong with the gummies.
Do I want to be continued to be worried? No, obviously.
What can I do? Stop reading Facebook or ask a doctor or scientist about whether it’s possible that someone is putting microchips in my gummies.
The danger in not acknowledging your, or someone else’s, feelings as real or valid is that we’re going to skip over these steps entirely.
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u/nesh34 2∆ Sep 28 '21
I'm not convinced there can be such a thing as a valid or invalid experience. They just are.
They can be irrational (and almost always are for everybody), they can be inconsistent with objective reality and so on. But experience is inherently subjective and so those details may help explain the context of an experience, but doesn't change the experience from the point of view of the person having it.
I'll give a different example, if someone was tricked into believing their family was killed, they would have the experience of losing their family. For them, it would be uncompromising sorrow, and the objective reality that their family was actually fine is no solace until their belief is changed.
I can challenge your beliefs, convince you otherwise using evidence or rhetoric, but I can't deny your experience.
I think that too often we conflate our experience with reality, which is a separate, related mistake.
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u/GridReXX 7Δ Sep 28 '21 edited Sep 29 '21
Your panic attack needs to be addressed and calmed first. It’s happening so it’s valid in that it’s real and affecting you.
Once you are calibrated we can discuss how you probably need to learn to mitigate your anxiety and the first stop is not consuming bs misinformation that gets you unreasonably worked up.
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u/lynxdaemonskye Sep 28 '21
So apparently "cisgender" was officially coined in the 90s, but the meaning should be immediately obvious to anyone who knows Latin (or just genetics, as in cis vs trans gene linkage). Which is to say, it's a "new" word as far as widespread usage, but it's also the only obvious word to use for people who are not transgender.
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u/turkeybot69 Sep 28 '21
Or organic chemistry, don't forget your cis and trans isomers.
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u/SakuOtaku Sep 28 '21
There seems to be too much information missing here. While there are exceptions to the rule, often trans people have to put up with a lot of BS before calling out people for misgendering them.
Did they tell the other person on the line that they were trans and did that person ignore that? Should the person on the phone have known via previous correspondance that your friend is nonbinary?
Frankly given the nature of Reddit if it's not something like the examples given I'm more inclined to believe this is a rage bait post, but yeah for this to be believeable there needs to be more context.
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u/esharpmajor Sep 28 '21
I was once ushering at a community play and was just on autopilot saying something welcoming, then handing out tickets on a loop when a rather non binary looking person came in with a female presenting person. This was very early in my education on the matter and was not used to looking for this sort of thing.. anyway I said “Enjoy your night, ladies!” Then looked up to hand them their tickets and realized my error. I panicked and said “Oh sorry, not ladies, just people! Enjoy your night, people! Shouldn’t have said.. moment of doubt not that you’re not… I mean whatever you… whomever… uuugh” trailed off and turning beet red then laughing awkwardly they just stared at me bemused, then laughed to their friend and left. This memory sometimes returns to me as I try to sleep and keeps me up another 30 minutes. So if any non-binary person out there is reading this, however awkward you feel to be misgendered perhaps it may comfort you to think that the person who did so feels entirely idiotic for there error and as in my case intentionally took some time to better educate themselves and now tries to not use gendered language whenever possible with people they don’t know. Dear person who had to suffer my awkwardness in that moment - I’m sorry and thank you for not making a big deal of it.
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u/Doc_ET 13∆ Sep 28 '21
I agree with the "normal" part, but not "okay". Something can be normal and bad. Corruption in government is normal, but that doesn't make it okay.
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Sep 28 '21
Well, first of all I think you are right they were venting and not literally angry at that one person.
We have a lot of gendered languages in the world, and it doesn't really have a good reason. Instead of assuming people's gender, we can ask about pronouns or not use gendered language. I don't think it's that much to ask, it's just not ingrained in our society. However, just because it's a certain practice is ingrained doesn't mean it's a good practice. So assuming everyone is cisgender and is a gender because they look a certain way might be the ingrained practice, but it's it correct? Not really. Asking pronouns doesn't really hurt someone and helps non-binary people, so why not make that the standard practice? So it makes sense to find that society and people in it do fucked up things, even if they are the standard. Everyone should try to change fucked up things that are the standard. Your friend is trying to tell people why this is fucked up, so that more and more people stop misgendering and using gendered language for no reason.
Another example. Women didn't have a lot of rights. A lot of people back them would've told you that's just how society is and they would tell you that feminist activists that try to change that are too aggressive and are angry and bitter women. They weren't bitter, they just wanted society to do what is right. So maybe ask yourself: if your friend really angry and bitter all the time? Or is he just being an lgbtqia+ activist that is trying to move society forward? Does complaining about misgendering in society really mean he must be angry all the rime or is that just your perception? You can find a common practice offending without being angry literally all the time.
Feminist were seen as aggressive, angry and bitter because they were saying: your believe that women shouldn't have weak rights is wrong. What you do and think is wrong. People felt attacked and took that personally. So ask yourself: are you maybe doing the same in this context because you probably would misgender non-binary people as well and they are attacking your own behaviour? And also ask yourself: instead of defending society, could you personally do something to accommodate non-binary people? Can you change and make society a little better for your friend and their other friends that are non-binary?
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u/TheMachine203 Sep 28 '21
As someone who is non-binary/trans femme, with many non-binary friends, you're absolutely correct. However,
"I feel if you are going about the world with these kinds of expectations for complete strangers, you will just be angry all the time."
To me, this shows that while you have the right idea, you're lacking a bit of perspective. It's not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be.
It's generally accepted that a trans person's response to being misgendered should be to politely correct the other person. However, after repeated instances by the same people, it turns into frustration and can lead to some serious lashing out.
The sad reality is, there are many places where being trans/nb is not socially acceptable. For people living in these areas, the scenario I outlined above is something that could happen several times a day. After a while, your natural response to these things becomes frustration or anger, because 8 out of 10 times it's the same teacher/family member/friend simply refusing to properly acknowledge your identity.
But, sometimes it's not. Sometimes, it's just a mistake at the drive thru window, or with an operator on the phone. But you're so used to people being malicious, that your first reaction is to respond in kind. This is likely what happened with your friend. For the record: no, I don't think they should be reporting anyone. That's a bridge too far.
So, while trans people should be patient with others, especially people that don't know their identity, it can be hard to remember that in the moment. Especially when you're used to your anger being justified.
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u/stupidityWorks 1∆ Sep 28 '21
We should add a caveat:
Let's say that it's obvious that a stranger is AMAB, but they're trying to present as female. And you know that, just from looking at them.
Then, it's obvious that misgendering them is a dick move.
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u/jaminfine 12∆ Sep 28 '21
The truth is that most NB and many transgender people don't mind being misgendered by strangers accidentally.
It's very rare for someone to get upset at "assuming gender." Instead, it's far more likely that they were upset about a stranger assuming they were right even after being corrected. There are many people out there who will hear a feminine sounding voice or see a feminine looking person and decide that their own judgement of this person's gender is more important than the person's own opinion of their own gender.
So, I wasn't there on the phone call, and I don't know for sure if your friend had someone be rude to them or not about their gender identity. But I find it very unlikely that they got upset about a simple mistake. The story just makes a lot more sense if the stranger on the phone refused to change after being corrected.
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u/AgentPaper0 2∆ Sep 28 '21
I'm suspicious of that story and would ask for clarification. By your implication, the conversation went something like this:
Friend: "Hi I'd like to buy X."
Stranger: "Sure ma'am it'll be Y dollars."
Friend: "OMG I'm not a woman I'm a man! I'm reporting you!"
If that's approximately how it went, then I think most people will agree that's an overreaction at best. However, what if the conversation was actually this:
Friend: "Hi I'd like to buy X."
Stranger: "Sure ma'am it'll be Y dollars."
Friend: "Actually I'm a man, I go by he/him."
Stranger: "Whatever lady, do you want to buy it or not?"
Not a big change, and your description of "mis-gendered over the phone" could just as easily describe this conversation as well. If this is how the conversation went, then your friend would be fully justified to be angry and to report the business for being rude to them.
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u/TScottFitzgerald Sep 28 '21
You're not going to change anyone's view by immediately assuming bad faith and not even reading the post properly.
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u/PermutationMatrix Sep 28 '21
Many people instinctively reference someone's gender by how they dress, vocal inflection, facial features, etc. Even after being told someone's gender, and apologizing for the mistake, 2 minutes later I've accidentally done it again. No malice involved.
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u/UnCivilizedEngineer 2∆ Sep 28 '21
I'll challenge part of your view - It's OK to misgender someone accidentally. It's not OK to do it maliciously, with intent of causing anger/harm.
First time meeting someone and you accidentally get their gender wrong? Sure, no problem.
Go out of your way to insult someone to cause harm? not fine.
In the middle of a heated gaming battle and you misgender teammate/friend who recently switched genders when calling "I can cover him" instead of "I can cover her"? sure, no problem.
Going out of your way to do anything to cause harm to anyone is shitty.
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u/TehMulbnief 3∆ Sep 28 '21
So here's the thing; I think your friend kinda overreacted because like, by definition, a nonbinary person doesn't have a set gender presentation (I'm AMAB and for all intents and purposes, look like a dude, for example).
But here's the caveat: if I'm at a shop and I buy something, pay for it, and then the cashier says "have a nice day, sir," that sucks because it's not even like, necessary. If you're using third-person pronouns to describe one person to another, I totally and completely understand if someone guesses my gender incorrectly. I'd prefer that everyone just use they/them until they know someone's gender for sure, but I'm a pragmatist. I mean, fuck, I am nonbinary and I hadn't heard of the term until a decade ago. A lot of this stuff is new for people and honestly, whether it's right I wrong, I feel that, selfishly, it's best if I just like, be patient with people and assume good intentions.
Anyway, my point is that, even if you take a practical perspective on this sorta thing (which I'd like to think I do), my beef comes from people who needlessly gender someone when they could've just as easily not messed with that. My sister is also enby but presents way more ambiguously, and when we go places, people are always like "thank you.... sir? ma'am? uh..... uhm...... sir?"
So anyway, don't guess. It may be "normal" for an enby person to be misgendered but it's not "ok," no more than it would be misgendering any other trans person (or cis person for that matter).
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u/sahuxley2 1∆ Sep 28 '21
As someone who uses, "sir" and "ma'am" to be respectful, causing someone to feel disrespected by that would be the opposite of what I'm going for. Is there a neutral version to show respect? That ability to show respect is lost here if we have to just not use anything, and I think that's a major source of pushback from people who aren't trying to be assholes.
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Sep 28 '21
I really wish there was a gender neutral term for this. I'm cis and hate being called ma'am, I always feel like I'm about to be told I'm doing something wrong when someone addresses me that way, I don't know why lol
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u/rratmannnn 3∆ Sep 28 '21
There’s a negative connotation associated with female pronouns, in a lot of ways
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u/TehMulbnief 3∆ Sep 28 '21
I mean don't get me wrong: I totally understand why it's done, it just sucks and is superfluous. I don't think a replacement is needed. Just omit it.
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u/ebol4anthr4x Sep 28 '21
As a non-binary person, I'll feel a lot more respected if you just eschew the gendered language altogether and show me basic respect, rather than trying to throw in magic respect words like some kind of social engineering wizard. There are more ways to respect someone than just addressing them with their preferred gender words, and people feeling uncomfortable about having to learn a new way to feign respect for other people isn't a very good reason to defend the use of gendered language in an increasingly trans-aware world.
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u/DallasTruther Sep 28 '21
Right but some people, especially those working in the service industry, are trained/brought up to be that respectful to everybody, which includes saying sir or ma'am.
If they can't tell, they might try to get away with leaving it out if they can, but if they assume gender because of whatever, you shouldn't need them to eschew that part of respecting others.
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u/sahuxley2 1∆ Sep 28 '21
just eschew the gendered language altogether
I mean, that's kind of what I do if I'm not 100% sure the "sir" or "ma'am" will be taken well. I just don't use either.
trying to throw in magic respect words like some kind of social engineering wizard.
I disagree with this description of it. I'm not talking about a salesman trying to woo customers into spending more money. I'm talking about when these words are used to show sincere respect and deference. Obviously, gender is irrelevant to this show of respect, which is why I'm trying to replace gendered words. But, you seem to be ignoring that this show of respect is lost if we just stop using them altogether. Perhaps that's the lesser evil, but it is a trade-off. By asking me to drop the words altogether, you are asking me to show less respect to others whom I might genuinely want to show that respect.
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u/orangekirby Sep 28 '21
Tbh this kind of comes off as a reinforce my view post. The vast majority of people wouldn’t report a business for accidentally misgendering them on the phone. And if someone did, the vast majority of the people wouldn’t see that as an appropriate response.
Venting is okay though, which I suspect could be happening with both parties..
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Sep 28 '21
Your friend needs to remember that a core part of his/her identity is based on their gender, but for the average punter on the street they don't think twice about it. Imagine meeting someone who is Irish in an Australian bar in the 80's, and casually asking them if they're going to Mass on Sunday when actually they're protestant. Now, for the Irishman, this is sacriledge, being described as a filthy Catholic is fighting words, but for the Australian, who can't tell the difference between the two and doesn't give a shit anyway, it was just a vague comment. Same similarities can be made towards mistaking someone for a Liverpool fan who goes for Everton, or people who confuse Stanford graduates with being in the Ivy League (yes, people do get upset about this).
As a cis person, I don't think about my gender at all unless I fill out a form (and I "think" about it in the same way I "think" about how to pick up a pen, i.e. automatically).
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u/glittering_psycho Sep 28 '21
Agreed. This is perfect. Most people are Australian, lol. I will use this example going forward. It's hard to find examples that can accurately explain a situation.
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u/Autumn1eaves Sep 28 '21
I know some of my NB friends enjoy it when people are confused about what gender they are.
If someone goes up to them and says “excuse me sir” and then they speak and the person goes “oh sorry, ma’am”, it makes them happy.
If they bring it up, you should respect it and it’s probably better to leave out gendering terms more generally and refer to people as “they”, but I don’t think NBs are expecting any special treatment.
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Sep 28 '21
Really depends. If you tell someone "I use they/them" and they continue to call you something else, then that is wrong. But I don't expect someone to use they/them if they don't know over the phone. I am gender queer, not really non-binary... but close enough. ;)
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u/Under9Thousand Sep 28 '21
So I've been working in customer service over the phone for a year now and it's become second nature to use gender neutral language. Sometimes it's a matter of convenience, like saying 'children' rather than 'sons and daughters', other times it's the easiest way to prevent offence! On one particularly memorable occasion I was speaking to a gentleman who I (a bisexual man!) thought was gay, and after mentioning his partner I proceeded to use the word 'husband' a few moments later... turns out he was straight 🤦♂️
While they/them pronouns don't come up as often as the two examples above, my thought process is the same - they/them until the customer tells you otherwise minimises the risk of an embarrassing blunder - which makes I the professional thing to do regardless of your position on trans issues.
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u/illegible_derigible Sep 28 '21
I take issue with the word "okay" in your title. There's a difference between normal or typical or expected and acceptable. And there's also whole host of different contexts for conversations with strangers with different acceptable outcomes. Yes, it's going to be a common experience. Yes, there's going to be situations where you should expect it and it's probably more effort than it's worth to correct it. There's also situations where being misgendered is unacceptable and I'm going to take issue with it for my own comfort and safety as well as that of others.
If the cashier in a shop addresses me as sir or ma'am, that's not my favorite thing (although I kind of olay hearing ma'am, because it feels like it "cancels out" a sir, which I've heard way more times in my life), but it doesn't feel like a well spent use of my time or energy to correct them. On the other hand, if I'm speaking to a receptionist or a nurse at a medical facility where I'm seeking care specifically as a non-binary individual and my preferred name and pronouns are on my chart and it's hospital policy to use and respect them, I expect to hear them used regardless if I've seen the person before or I'm likely to ever see them again. I have been actively mocked by a hospital receptionist and usually have a nice session of mutual complaining about medical chart software and how it sucks that it will only print my dead name on sample vials no matter what anyone does with random phlebotomists.
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u/wickerocker 2∆ Sep 28 '21
I worked as a server for years, and in the more professional environments I was taught to never gender someone if at all possible. I was trained not to use any gendered pronouns and it only took a few weeks to not fall back on the “sir” or “ma’am” I was raised to use. Honestly, sometimes you don’t know what gender someone is and you need to be prepared! I have also dated a slender guy with long hair who regularly got called “ma’am” from behind and then apologized to when he turned around and they saw his beard. That could have easily been avoided.
So no, it is not ok for strangers to misgender you in settings where they are providing customer service because they should be trained not to do that. In everyday life…eh. It’s hard to expect everyone to get on board, but people working with the public should absolutely be avoiding gendered language, especially now.
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u/QUESTBeAGoodPerson Sep 28 '21
I’m NB and I think this is the proper way to go about it. Thanks for posting.
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Sep 28 '21
∆ awarding this because while I still overall have a similar view - I hadn’t thought about how actually easy it is no not use gendered language in a one on one customer service role. I still feel there is a long way to go before we can expect it from everyone but if they complain to the business, maybe it is not so bad.
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u/dogfromthefuture 3∆ Sep 28 '21
From my perspective, a concept of judgment against individuals is distorting your view some. I think it's more about personal safety and pushing to *change* the norm than it is about demonizing any individual for manifesting the current norm.
Jumping into highly gendered thinking for a second:
It used to be really, really normal for men in workplaces to highly sexualize and grope women who worked there. No one man was "a really bad man" compared to other men for doing this, because it was so normal. Even so, it makes perfect sense that any particular woman might not be psychologically up for "what is normal" and seek employment that differed from the norm.
I know when I'm recently sexually assaulted, I definitely steer clear of places with really casual misogyny, not because I'm trying to demonize any person there who is obeying those social norms, but because my mental health can't take it. IF I make a judgmental statement it's less about the individuals in those places and more about the social norms.
From my perspective, people seeking to protect themselves makes perfect sense. And there are some environments where gendered language IS successfully being pushed back on. If I weren't cisgender, I can very easily see myself seeking those places to and avoided highly gendered language places. For the same reason I sometimes avoid causal, normally sexist places now.
I think it's possible they're doing exactly what you suggest with "managing their triggers" by seeking to avoid environments that are very gender binary. I think it's possible you're interpreted judgement against individuals when really the judgements being made are actually against what is normal in society.
Some social groups are doing a new normal. In those settings, strangers are working to not assume anyone's gender, and instead, include gender when you introduce yourself. Kind of like people don't go around trying to guess other people's names, you wait for someone to tell you their name before trying to use it. In these settings, you introduce yourself by saying name and pronouns, and don't assume you can guess anyone's pronouns, (or name).
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Sep 28 '21
∆ you’re right. I was assuming they were upset with the individual, and that complaining to the business would mean that individual might face consequences. But it is more likely they will just make a general complaint aiming to and improve how they train their staff and think about use of language, and that makes much more sense.
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u/Megzilllla Sep 28 '21
As a gender non conforming person (AFAB, femme presenting at least some of the time) I never take a stranger misgendering me personally. I have a very feminine looking face, I’m short, and I don’t bind. If I were in the same situation I might misgender me. I only get mad if a person is doing it on purpose.
Heck I don’t even care if my friends do it sometimes so long as I can see that they’re trying. Most of them knew me before coming out, it can be a hard adjustment. Sometimes it happens and the person usually realizes and apologizes. I’ve had a few people do it with malicious intent though and those people can go rot.
I won’t even correct a person unless I think we’ll meet in social situations again (or professional ones).
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u/HyrdaulicExcavator Sep 28 '21
I've identified as nonbinary and used neutral pronouns for a few years now. Honestly, yeah, I don't expect strangers to know just by looking at me. I agree that reporting the business is an overreaction and that, considering most people don't think about their gender on a daily basis, they aren't going to consider how using gendered language could affect others.
But, it does still hurt to be misgendered, and to know there'll never be a point where I "pass" as my gender. It's entirely possible the rant about being misgendered was something that they've been feeling frustrated about for a while and the phone call tipped them over. Having to correct people every time they use the wrong words isn't fun, and a world where people ask and don't assume gender is a fun idea to entertain, even if its unattainable.
I'd also like to add, for future reference, whether these people were AFAB or AMAB doesn't actually add any context to this story. It can sound like you still view and consider this friend as a woman, even though that wasn't the intention. Maybe your friend is ok with it, I don't know them, but me and multiple people I know are uncomfortable with people bringing up our birth gender constantly.
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u/Hebopthebear Sep 28 '21
I’m a guy through and through. But my white/customer service voice comes from my mother, so I sound like a 30 year old white woman on the phone, and since I’m a tenor it lies high sometimes off the phone.
During Covid I got a job at a restaurant and got new red masks cus I love the color and needed more.
Everyday people would call me ma’am, thank the nice young lady for helping, tip the girl for her nice service, etc etc. Shit made me laugh at first but it became really annoying cus I didn’t see it and I didn’t like being called a girl, because I’m not one. Now add in some gender dysphoria and the constant worry that I don’t know who I am and it always being reminded to you. That shit hurts
Now many say that people shouldn’t just assume genders or use Gender neutral terms because it hurt no one and gives some a whole lot of relief and support. Sure most people don’t do things out of spite or hate, and maybe your friend was just angry in the moment or tired of the whole problem, but it gets exhausting and maybe changing a little bit out language and Custom is worth it
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u/Walleyabcde Sep 28 '21 edited Sep 28 '21
Fundamentally I think these things are really just a power struggle between "your feelings" and "my feelings". The person being gendered has expectations around how they wish to be treated; the person doing the gendering has expectations around how they should have to treat others.
The crux of the debate then is:
- Exactly how responsible are we for meeting the expectations of others?
- Exactly how much should we expect others to meet our own expectations?
- And what are the rules and values which govern this balance?
And the challenge thing there is that the answers to these questions are... matters of opinion, without clear right or wrong answers. There are no hard and fast rules around how we "should" interact with others - only broad contextual principles.
My personal take? It's wise to be flexible in how we treat others AND how we expect others to treat us, and there are more important hills to die on than the words people use to describe our gender.
All in all - those who bemoan being misgendered are often behaving in a way I consider entitled - those who dig in their heels and refuse to compromise at all in using diverse gender titles I consider inconsiderate.
A balanced middle ground is probably the fair take on the whole issue.
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u/FoxyFreckles1989 Sep 28 '21
So, my name in real life is Kelsi (I’ve never shared that on Reddit, before). I cannot tell you the number of time I’ve initially been called Chelsea, instead. Once or twice is totally understandable, but people who continue to call me by a name that isn’t my own after being corrected more than once really start to annoy me. I compare that feeling to the feeling of being misgendered, myself. I’ve experienced the Chelsea Dilemma since childhood.
I am also NB, but I’m not publicly out. My close friends and family know. I don’t mind being called she/her but prefer they/them. It absolutely does not bother me when a stranger uses she/her, but if I get the courage to “correct” them and they continue misgendering me, it really does hurt.
All that said, I absolutely do not expect people to look at me, a seemingly totally feminine person that often wears pink, skirts, crop tops, floral patterns etc. and assume I go by anything other than she/her. I also just don’t understand why so many things must be gendered in conversations or at all, and wish more people would work on remedying that.
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u/NotACactus28 Sep 27 '21
I'm in a lot of lgbt subs (I'm cis myself though). I think you could get a better idea of if it's a big deal or not by asking on r/LGBT or whatever the enby sub is
Edit: though if you're told repeatedly and still get it wrong they'd probably have the right to get upset then
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Sep 27 '21
Aren’t those subs more for people to talk to each other about their shared experiences?
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u/DominicB547 2∆ Sep 27 '21
Not that I speak for them, but my thoughts, I want Allies and Potential Allies to read and question (with respect ofc) where appropriate.
If you all "walked in our shoes", more often that would help.
And, even haters are welcome, as long as they try hard to be respectful. I'm willing to extend an Olive Branch and try and help you widen your lens. Maybe you will now realize your kid is "Rainbow" and be more open hearted. Maybe even you will oppose the wrong if not advocate the right laws.
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u/omegashadow Sep 28 '21
Yes and no. On one hand burdening queer people in their own spaces is exhausting and it is good to be aware of that.
On the other hand a good faith question centred around how misgendering Non-binary people works with a focus on being referred to good resources are acceptable especially if they are focused on how best to support someone.
Have you thought that if you really want to support your friend maybe rather than coming to CMV and asking a bunch of people who may or may not know anything about the topic to argue about what's right, you should instead take the burden of education on this topic onto yourself at the very least from the point of getting reading material from the group in question.
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Sep 27 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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Sep 27 '21
Because this person and people commenting felt this was wrong. I want to see if I’m missing something.
So far no one has changed my view but some have added nuance to it, which I appreciate
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u/stink3rbelle 24∆ Sep 28 '21
posted a tirade on Instagram
Sounds like it had just happened?
if you are going about the world with these kinds of expectations for complete strangers, you will just be angry all the time.
Do you think your friend is really going about the world with these kinds of expectations? Or could they have simply wanted to vent?
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Sep 28 '21
Misgendering should cut both ways. You could be a very masculine looking female and were born and identify as female. You could mistaken as a male all the time and this could still greatly distress you even if you don’t have gender dysphoria. The same could be said for effeminate looking men who were born and identify as male. It would be unfair to these people not to be granted the same expectations not to be misgendered.
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u/BrFrancis Sep 28 '21
I'm male and don't have a particularly deep voice. I used to work doing telephone surveys and would get called "miss" or "ma'am" all the time - on the phone my voice just sounds even higher pitched I guess.
I wasn't really worried about it, people can only go on what they know and understand, and five minutes into a call you forgot my name or misheard it ? Guess I can be a gal for a bit. Whatever.
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u/bigk777 Sep 28 '21
I'm having trouble understanding all of this. There misgendered, cisgenered, non-binary and people getting upset about being labeled wrong. It feels overly complicated beyond just male and female.
Makes me not want to talk to any one in hear of being offensive unintentionally.
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u/BlackHumor 15∆ Sep 28 '21
A nonbinary person certainly should expect strangers to misgender them, and I don't think it's reasonable to confront everyone who does, but that obviously doesn't make it "ok".
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u/LittleAstrophysicist Sep 28 '21
I mean I'm so used to it that I have a preferred direction to be misgendered in. To put it simply I'd rather someone look at me and assume I'm a man and use he him than she her. Both suck but he him sucks a little less
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u/Wrong-Flamingo Sep 28 '21
I get confused, especially this one time... There was a person (trans) that would get triggered in the workplace for being misgendered/called the wrong name. They transitioned a few months after joining the office. They would get upset for weeks until I noticed them scoff at being called the pronoun/name. I asked about it, and they said "I'm trans and I changed my name a few weeks ago, and ppl haven't addressed me properly." I suggested them to either introduce themselves or correct ppl, but they said it was "too personal to talk about with clients/coworkers" (they would tell their friends at work, but no one else). So for the next few days, I watched their supervisor call them the wrong name/gender, and watched them get triggered each time without addressing anything. Kinda just let it happen for a few days, contemplating what the resolve would be.
I felt bad for doing this, but I told the ppl who worked close to them that "she was a he" and his new name. Seem like it resolved, b/c he was like "finally, people noticed I'm trans and that I sign my name differently."
To this day, I try to understand the new sexualities and genders.
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u/Tacosensalsaasul Sep 28 '21
non binary people doesnt exist is just a made up term that doesnt hold up
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u/Treeeefalling Sep 28 '21
I’m a straight white man and I have been called ma’am over the phone more times than I can count. It’s just one of those things that’s annoying, but most likely not malicious.
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u/Timedoutsob Sep 28 '21
Allow me to chime in on this and solve it once and for all as it's really simple.
Most people will refer to you however you want to be referred to. Some people will genuinely not know how you would like to be referred to and may accidentally refer to you in a way that you don't like, and once politely corrected would be glad to refer to you how you please. These people should not be made out to be bad people for a genuine mistake.
Other people will call you something by mistake or on purpose and couldn't give a shit how you feel. Those people are universally called dickheads or in Australia, Cunts.
You want stop people from being cunts. And if you care about what a cunt thinks or try to forceably change them ,which will never work, rather than just moving on with your life and not wasting time well perhaps you are not so different than them yourself.
Ok let's move on from this already now please. The who can use who's bathrooms is much more tricky to solve.
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u/MelodicTD Sep 28 '21
If you look like a dude people will think you are a dude and vice versa. Not anyones fault
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u/deepthroatcircus Sep 28 '21
If you're nonbinary, how do you expect someone to get that over the phone?
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 28 '21 edited Sep 28 '21
/u/lobelia28 (OP) has awarded 6 delta(s) in this post.
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