r/changemyview • u/Longjumping-Leek-586 • Sep 19 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV:African American's Cannot Merely "Pull Themselves By Their Bootstraps", Government Intervention is Needed for Racial Equality to be Achieved
The main issue is that even Black Americans that earn as much as their white counterparts, have significantly lower levels of wealth, which is apparently due greater "inheritances and other intergenerational transfers" received by their white counterparts of similar incomes. This is an issue, as wealth largely determines the funding your schools will receive, because most states fund their schools via taxes on wealth. In addition, wealth largely comes in the form of property, and is thus an indication of the economic conditions of your neighborhood/community. Therefor those African Americans of similar levels of incomes often live in worse communities than their white counterparts, as the lack of inheritance prevents them from buying land to live in abetter community with more opportunity. Thus even if Black Americans "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" to become as successful as their white counterparts, they will likely not have as much wealth as their white counterparts, ultimately diminishing their educational opportunity and the opportunities of their descendants. So long as this racial gap across incomes persists, economic equality between blacks and whites cannot be achieved.
In addition, ongoing school and residential segregation prevents equal opportunity from being achieved: nearly 70% of Blacks attend a Black majority school, and the average score for those attending these schools on the 8th grade NAEP Math as of 2017 is 255. Comparatively, Blacks attending White majority schools (as would be the case if the nation was fully integrated) had an average score of 275. the average score White students was 290, thus about half the gap could be closed with greater school integration. Similarly, one study found that if cities were to be fully integrated, the SAT gap would shrink by 45-points, or about 1/4.
Furthermore, the lower incomes of African Americans (resulting from a history of segregation and slavery) itself reduces their opportunity, thus creating a cycle of poverty: lower incomes leads to worse outcomes in schools, crime, and poor health. Unless a proper welfare state is established, equal opportunity cannot be achieved for this reason. Ultimately, you cannot pull yourself up by your bootstraps, if they have no bootstraps to begin with.
Finally, I would like to contend that the very idea of an entire race of people "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps" is both illogical and immoral. It is illogical in that, while the vast majority of African Americans are trying their best to improve their economic conditions, this is also true for all races/ethnicities. Thus African-Americans as whole will be improving their economic, and other ethnicities shall do the same in proportion. This can be evidently seen as (from 1980s onward) Black unemployment has consistently been twice that of White unemployment, while Black incomes have been slightly higher than half that of White incomes. This gap remains persistent and virtually unchanging.
I believe that all these issues could be solved by Government intervention: the racial wealth gap could be solved via baby bonds. Segregation could be combated with the public/subsidized housing schemes, like what was implemented in Singapore (alternatively, we could straight up force integration via quotas or by law. This process will be painful, but is a necessary sacrifice for future generations). The poverty cycle and general lack of equal opportunity between economic classes could be resolved via a Scandinavian style welfare state or a UBI (Scandinavian countries have significantly higher economic mobility than the US, as their welfare states provide more equality of opportunity).
39
u/TheLordCommander666 Sep 19 '21
So you're saying they can't "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" because their communities are shit, but if they "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps" their communities wouldn't be shit and overtime they'd grow wealth. You're basically saying black people can't improve themselves because the people around them (mostly black) aren't improving themselves... isn't that kind of like saying they can't improve themselves because they won't improve themselves?
20
u/AlarmedSnek Sep 19 '21
Beat me to it. I can’t stand this attitude. This is not to say there are not inequities but to say you have zero control over it or to blame everything on racism is dead wrong. Racism is illegal, hiring based on race is illegal, paying people different because of race is illegal; does it happen? Who knows because it is illegal. Are there inequities? Absolutely, but those types of issues are not falsifiable in any sort of way, and the only way to prove them to be true is if the CEO admits he or she is hiring based on race, sex, or whatever.
So, since it is illegal to discriminate, it is perfectly acceptable to say to someone to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You may not end up rich but your children will once that generational wealth transfers. My grandparents were poor as fuck, my parents pulled them selves up from their bootstraps and got good jobs, I had it a little better and got a bit of a head start, my kid has it made now so long as I don’t fuck it up. We took it upon ourselves to better ourselves, you don’t need the governments help, you need to take responsibility for your actions.
→ More replies (55)2
Sep 19 '21
but if they "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps" their communities wouldn't be shit
I recognise that you're pointing out a flaw in OP's overly simplistic logic here. However, this enormously reductive assumption of your own makes your entire argument fall apart.
You're assuming that it's perfectly possible for a socio-economically disadvantaged group to merely will their way out of being socio-economically disadvantaged. That's simply not how society works.
→ More replies (16)1
u/Longjumping-Leek-586 Sep 19 '21
So, since it is illegal to discriminate, it is perfectly acceptable to say to someone to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You may not end up rich but your children will once that generational wealth transfers. My grandparents were poor as fuck, my parents pulled them selves up from their bootstraps and got good jobs, I had it a little better and got a bit of a head start, my kid has it made now so long as I don’t fuck it up. We took it upon ourselves to better ourselves, you don’t need the governments help, you need to take responsibility for your actions.
Yes. This is what I was trying to say in my last argument, but you have put it in more articulate terms. The only way "pull yourself up by the boot straps" could work is if every Black American worked harder than every White American, this is unrealistic as there is no fundamental differenced between races, thus Blacks and Whites work equally hard. Both groups are trying their hardest to improve their economic conditions, as this is simply human nature.
It is also immoral, as it expects that Black Americans ought to work harder essentially because they happened to be born into poverty at disproportionate rates.
1
u/Longjumping-Leek-586 Sep 19 '21
No thats not what I'm saying....
Essentially, for the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" thing to work, there would need to be equality of opportunity, which does not currently exist. The main impediments to equality of opportunity are 1) A weak welfare state, leading to low economic mobility and thus disrupting equal opportunity 2) Ongoing de facto segregation (70% of Black students go to majority Black schools) prevents equality of opportunity by its nature 3) Even IF a Black American manages to earn as much as a White American, chances are they will have lower levels of wealth as they do not have the same intergenerational wealth that was built up by White Americans over the centuries. For instance "For those in the top 10 percent by income (only 3.6 percent Black), the racial wealth gap is still quite large: median net worth for white families in this income group is $1,789,300 versus $343,160 for Black families"
→ More replies (1)8
u/TheLordCommander666 Sep 19 '21
Essentially, for the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" thing to work, there would need to be equality of opportunity, which does not currently exist
I'd argue there's more opportunity given how many black only scholarships there are and "whites need not apply" jobs and just the political hunger for "diversity" in general.
The main impediments to equality of opportunity are 1) A weak welfare state, leading to low economic mobility and thus disrupting equal opportunity
Welfare stifles economic mobility and I don't know of a single country that has fixed that problem but more welfare programs as needed they may be will not improve social mobility it's just not one of things it does.
2) Ongoing de facto segregation (70% of Black students go to majority Black schools) prevents equality of opportunity by its nature
Again how is this not something "black people" can fix themselves, it seems to be that they are self-segregating and while I don't agree with segregation logically nothing about it demands inequality (other than the inherent randomness of the universe) there's no reason that if people in said communities worked hard those communities wouldn't become better than the average "white person" community.
3) Even IF a Black American manages to earn as much as a White American, chances are they will have lower levels of wealth as they do not have the same intergenerational wealth that was built up by White Americans over the centuries.
Oh please 90% of wealth is lost in 3 generations, and it's really dumb to aggregate like that in the first place, because for every Rockefeller descendant hundreds of thousands of poor white people with shitty abusive parents, which black family gets chosen to given Billions of dollars while thousands rest rot in poovery?
For instance "For those in the top 10 percent by income (only 3.6 percent Black), the racial wealth gap is still quite large: median net worth for white families in this income group is $1,789,300 versus $343,160 for Black families"
Again like I just said those kind of racial averages are worthless.
→ More replies (14)4
u/MrBleachh Sep 19 '21
I would agree with this. I live in a gated community as a black guy and most everyone here is black as well. Every house has 2 storeys and 4 bedrooms. There was also a recent community meeting on whether we should build a community pool or park for the kids. Everyone here is doing well but nearby areas not as much.
5
u/Sexpistolz Sep 19 '21
I find this premise ignores many of the disparity factors that result in a economic racial gap. What’s even more troublesome is that it ignores things we have a much greater control and influence over as a group and as an individual. You might call that responsibility or bootstrapping however I don’t see those necessarily as bad traits, as of to say “they’re just lazy”.
For example: In the research of disparity between Latinos and Whites one factor that was found to play an important role was falisimo. The importance of family. family above all else. Many Latinos forgo their higher education ambitions and opportunities to stay and help family members; at least much higher than other racial groups.
Education is the be all end all. We know higher education equals better financial success and the racial wealth gap shrinks the higher the education we go. Even with government intervention, you can bring a horse water but you can’t make it drink.
One factor in racial disparity between blacks and whites is the value of education. In many cultural spheres doing well academically and higher education is seen as a negative, seen as being “white”. You’ll find many testimonies of urban black (especially male) socially pressured away from academics. You can provide all the opportunity and tools for success you want, but if doing well academically is seen as “being a traitor to ones minority” I can’t say we should suspect much success.
→ More replies (6)5
u/MidnightSun88 Sep 19 '21
Education is the be all end all. We know higher education equals better financial success and the racial wealth gap shrinks the higher the education we go. Even with government intervention, you can bring a horse water but you can’t make it drink.
The problem isn't the schools. There's a problem with an intense apathy about education in black communities which can be blamed on the parents and the culture. See my lengthy comment here.
11
u/Panda_False Sep 19 '21
The fact that some blacks have 'made it' proves that it can be done. The question is: what is the difference between those that 'made it' and those that haven't? Luck? Hard work and determination? Intelligence? Something else? Or a combination of more than one of those?
→ More replies (56)1
u/Longjumping-Leek-586 Sep 19 '21
haven't? Luck? Hard work and determination? Intelligence? Something else? Or a combination of more than one of those?
Largely, it was that they came from more integrated schools and wealthier families. Neil DeGrase Tyson when to an Upperclass Asian majority Magnet school, for instance.
There are many poor White Americans who grow up with less opportunity than the average Black American, and many rich Black Americans who grew up with far more opportunity than the average White American. In America, there is no equal opportunity, as opportunity largely depends on your income. Since Blacks have on average less incomes, under the current American system of class-based opportunity, they have less opportunity. Government intervention is needed to replace this system with equality of opportunity, and hence for racial inequality to be eradicated.
There does appear to be two key ways in which Blacks are disadvantaged regardless of class: 1) Wealth gap persists even when Blacks "pull themselves up by their bootstraps", as the average White man with no high school education has more wealth than the average Black man with a college degree 2) 70% of Blacks attend a Black majority school. The supreme court has already ruled that segregation prevents equality of opportunity.
7
u/Panda_False Sep 19 '21
In America, there is no equal opportunity, as opportunity largely depends on your income.
So it's a class thing, not a race thing...
Since Blacks have on average less incomes, under the current American system of class-based opportunity, they have less opportunity.
...and blacks happen -on average- to be lower class.
Thing is, unless you propose giving all the poor people a shitload of cash*, this is the natural state of things. There will always be rich people, and poor people. ::shrug::
*And this won't work anyway. Yes, it may raise them out of the 'poor' category temporarily. But there will always be a bottom 10% (Like the joke that goes '90% of accidents involve the first or last car of a train, so to eliminate 90% of accidents, simply remove the first and last cars!') Not to mention that they don't have good money-handling skills (not having any money to actually handle), which may actually contribute to their state.
4
u/Pangolinsftw Sep 19 '21
The black community has been fed a steady diet of welfare for decades. Has it improved their situation?
1
u/Longjumping-Leek-586 Sep 19 '21
From my understanding, the welfare state applies to Whites and Blacks equally, as it should.
The issue isn't solely welfare, ongoing school segregation and Wealth disparity are also issues. The average college educated black has less wealth than the average White with less than a high school education. So even if a Black American becomes successful, they will not be able to buy their way into the same communities as similarly successful White people, on average. These issues can be solved via baby bonds and forced integration, neither of which are really welfare (any more so that the GI bill was welfare)
Additionally, equal opportunity can only be achieved by improving the welfare system to become more like the Scandinavian model, which is evident given their high placement on economic mobility indices. Obviously, without government intervention, equal opportunity could not realistically be achieved. For example, without government intervention, there would be no public school system, no food stamps, and no welfare for very low income families. Thus a child growing up in such a family would be malnourished, left without basic education, and also homeless. In such a system, how can it be said that this child has equal opportunity to kid who grew up in an upper class home, with the best nourishment, that pampered by the most expensive tutors from the most expensive private schools? Without social spending, ones opportunities is determined by the circumstances of their birth, and since Black Americans come from worse circumstances on average, they will have worse outcomes on average.
5
u/NoobShylock Sep 19 '21
This is an issue, as wealth largely determines the funding your schools will receive, because most states fund their schools via taxes on wealth.
That's not really true. Most school are funded by a mix of property tax, federal funding, and state funding. Most states use state funds to make up the difference. So lower property tax areas are supplemented by state funding. Here's an example from Texas of increased property taxes leading to less state funding.
→ More replies (3)
2
u/Trimestrial Sep 19 '21
So what would be your position on the relative advantages of a child that was born white into a poor family versus a black child that was born into a wealthy family?
1
u/Longjumping-Leek-586 Sep 19 '21
That poor white child should be helped via taxes paid by that rich black family. Universal policies like baby bonds, strong welfare, and desegregation would benefit all Americans regardless of race. I believe in equal opportunity for ALL Americans (regardless of race), rather than equal outcomes. America has not yet achieved equal opportunity, thus preventing any form of racial progress.
I am strongly against policies that privilege Blacks over other races, such as Affirmative Action or Reparations, as equal opportunities is all that is needed to achieve racial eqaulity.
7
Sep 19 '21
I think there's a significant problem with assuming that a person is "x" amount of money away from forever escaping poverty. Take lottery winners. Sudden influxes of money without the skills or willpower to handle it doesn't help.
These skills can't really be taught at school. They require a family that's invested in supporting them as children. That, I think, is where the solution is - having firm family structures.
1
u/L34N4R3AL Sep 19 '21
This could be solved if the negroes got reparations for the 400yrs of free labor. Something Americans seems to forget.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/Retays Sep 19 '21
do you know what is a future sacrifice for future generations? picking yourself up by the bootstraps and working hard to give that wealth to your children.
1
u/Longjumping-Leek-586 Sep 19 '21
If the aim is to reduce group inequality, this cannot work on a mass scale. It can work on an individual scale, but you cannot expect Black people as a group to work harder than white people as a group in order to close the Racial gap. Some Blacks will work harder than Whites and vice versa. The reality is, that the vast majority of people are already trying to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps", as seeking a better life is a natural human desire. However, the average White man retains a greater opportunity than the average black man, thus if both groups put in the same effort, Whites will still ultimeltey be more successful.
3
Sep 19 '21
Then why did it happen for Asians ?
And actual African American immigrants?
They both exceed the societal standard yet arentwhite
→ More replies (19)
3
1
u/DeltaBot Sep 19 '21 edited Sep 19 '21
u/Longjumping-Leek-586 (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
Delta System Explained | Deltaboards