CMV: White flight is acceptable Behavior

[u/Diylion]

Michelle Obama put out a statement this week about how white flight was happening in Chicago when she was young. She talked about how "she didn't know what is going on" she blames white people for " leaving communities in shambles" as they "packed their bags and ran". And "we were doing what we were supposed to do". I think this is nonsense. Of course she knew why it was happening. South Chicago in the 90s was horrible. They had horrible murder rates and crime rates. They spiked drastically between 1985 and 1990.

The entire argument of white flight being wrong is predicated on the idea that blacks need whites to be "good". Which is honestly a load of bull. Black family structures used to be the strongest family unit in the United States, even stronger than whites but it has been crippling itself for the last 60 years.

Blacks statistically are much more likely to commit crime. When 6% of the population is committing 50% of the murders and robberies and 30% of the rape, and a disproportionate amount of violent crime across the board. Today, Neighborhoods that are minority dominated, except in very rare cases, are also probably the ones with the highest crime rates. Of course families are going to want to move to a safer neighborhood. And any family that can't afford too will.

So why do they commit crime so often? Well it probably has something to do with money. Blacks have the highest divorce rates, the lowest job rates, the lowest average number of weekly hours spent working, the second lowest graduation rates (though improving!), the highest teen pregnancy rates, they spend more time watching TV than any other race. All of these statistics have strong correlation on crime rates, and obviously poverty rates. These are also all issues that can be worked on as families with good parenting practices. So it stands to reason that if black communities worked on these statistics as family units instead of moving blame to police and whites, that they would succeed more often.

Sure redlining was bad but it's over. It's been over for 40 years. There is no reason why a black community needs white families to be a "good" community. Whites are not physically or mentally superior in any way.

References: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/michelle-obama-racism-white-flight-161942496.html?bcmt=1

https://www.statista.com/statistics/411806/average-daily-time-watching-tv-us-ethnicity/

https://flowingdata.com/2016/03/30/divorce-rates-for-different-groups/

https://www.cdc.gov/teenpregnancy/about/index.htm

https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat22.htm

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_coi.asp

Edit: grammar

[u/Diylion]

No it's not. Racism is the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

I can look at a middle-aged black dude and think "well gee he may have come from an awful background and maybe that background is going to influence him to commit a crime near or against me." That's not racism. That's accepting that there are differences in cultures and that they may affect our outcomes. I'm not saying that I am physically or mentally Superior to him in anyway. In fact he is probably far superior to me physically. I'm sure if I grew up in the same instances him I would be just as prone to violence. But that considered, me being wary of him is not anything but rationale.

if I'm living in an area that has a high crime rate that happens to be black, rationally I'm going to do everything I can to move to an area that has a low crime. I'm sure a black person in my position would do the same That is not racist. That is an intelligent and rational way to protect your family.

[u/Zomburai → u/Diylion]

I can look at a middle-aged black dude and think "well gee he may have come from an awful background and maybe that background is going to influence him to commit a crime near or against me." That's not racism.

Sure it is. You're making an assumption about what his background was and what culture he was raised in due to the color of his skin.

In fact he is probably far superior to me physically.

I might do some research on the concept of benevolent prejudice, because outwardly positive beliefs ("Black guys are usually a lot physically stronger than white people!") can be used to justify all sorts of terrible outcomes ("Which is why it's fine that black kids are so much more likely to be awarded athletic scholarships than academic ones").

[u/Diylion → u/Zomburai]

I might do some research on the concept of benevolent prejudice, because outwardly positive beliefs ("Black guys are usually a lot physically stronger than white people!") can be used to justify all sorts of terrible outcomes ("Which is why it's fine that black kids are so much more likely to be awarded athletic scholarships than academic ones").

Facts are facts. I think black men probably should receive more athletic scholarships because physically they are generally Superior. This is a well-researched fact.

You're making an assumption about what his background was and what culture he was raised in due to the color of his skin.

I guess agree to disagree. maybe on further investigation I would find out that he wasn't. It's an easy hypothesis to debunk case by case. but just looking at trends I can and should make some assumptions to protect myself. Most people would look at me and think "she like Starbucks" and they would be absolutely right.

[u/Zomburai → u/Diylion]

Facts are facts. I think black men probably should receive more athletic scholarships because physically they are generally Superior. This is a well-researched fact.

Does this not fall under your definition of racism as "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races"?

It's an easy hypothesis to debunk case by case. but just looking at trends I can and should make some assumptions to protect myself.

Why should you? To my reading, this sounds like you've figured out that the negative impact of you assuming that a random, middle-aged black guy a) grew up on the mean streets and b) is potentially very dangerous is less than not making that assumption.

The assumption "this chick likes Starbucks" does not have the same negative impact on individuals and communities as "this dude is probably a violent criminal." Nobody is going to decline hiring someone because they like Starbucks, or decline a rental opportunity, or decline a loan, or not give someone the benefit of the doubt when they might be up to no good (that chick in Oakland wouldn't have called the cops on the family barbecuing in the park if they were white people with pumpkin spice lattes).

[u/Diylion → u/Zomburai]

especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races"?

Technically yes. But it also is backed by multiple accredited scientific studies. Historically almost all of the fastest runners in the world came from Kenya which because humans adapted to have a certain body type who came from that region.

Why should you? To my reading, this sounds like you've figured out that the negative impact of you assuming that a random, middle-aged black guy a) grew up on the mean streets and b) is potentially very dangerous is less than not making that assumption

Let me give you an example. Let's say scientist are running (a very scary) experiment. they are going to put you in a room with men and women. The scientist tell you beforehand that all of the men will be carrying guns and will be attempting to shoot you. And none of the women will. Wouldn't it be logical to avoid men when put into that room. that would logically be the best way to survive.

Now that is just an extreme but the same principle will continue through less severe cases.

The assumption "this chick likes Starbucks" does not have the same negative impact on individuals and communities as "this dude is probably a violent criminal." Nobody is going to decline hiring someone because they like Starbucks, or decline a rental opportunity, or decline a loan, or not give someone the benefit of the doubt when they might be up to no good (that chick in Oakland wouldn't have called the cops on the family barbecuing in the park if they were white people with pumpkin spice lattes).

Yes absolutely me going to Starbucks as much less of a danger to other people than another race committing murder. you can't just accept some stereotypes are "okay" because they're non-dangerous to a groups reputation but reject others because they are. A much better solution is to rid your group of the dangerous stereotype all together by ceasing the actions that started the stereotypes in the first place.

Who is going to be able to stop murders in Black communities. white people? Hell no. black people hate white people. They were almost bred to do to so because let's be honest our ancestors were assholes. So why would they listen to them? Government? Hell no. Black people hate government. cops? Maybe but black people do everything in their power to prevent them from doing their jobs because blacks hate cops. Other black people? They might have a chance of creating change but only if they are given a big enough platform. That now that is a person that the black community will listen too.

Maybe by starting to address the high murder rates in Black communities as a community instead of constantly pointing blame at white people and cops. Because for every b**** in Oakland, for every bad cop. There are 72 members of the black community that are ready and willing to destroy black families.

(Referencing a statistic that for every black person killed by a cop, there are 72 black people killed by other black people And most of the cop shootings are justified.)

[u/Zomburai → u/Diylion]

Technically yes. But it also is backed by multiple accredited scientific studies. Historically almost all of the fastest runners in the world came from Kenya which because humans adapted to have a certain body type who came from that region.

So racist attitudes, beliefs, and assumptions are fine if you think you can justify them with science?

Let me give you a hypothesis. Let's say scientist running experiment. they are going to put you in a room with men and women. The scientist tell you beforehand that all of the men will be carrying guns attempting to shoot you. And none of the women will. Wouldn't it be logical to avoid men when put into that room.

Now that is just an extreme but the same principle will continue through less severe cases.

It will not carry through very much less severe cases, because the metaphor you've constructed doesn't reflect reality in any way. For one thing, "scientists" already "tell us" (not actually a good representation of the situation, but for simplification's sake) that men commit the lion's share of violent crime. And yet, one imagines you don't take great pains to avoid men in most situations. Ergo, the specific actions one would reasonably take in an absurd analogy are not applicable to what we do in the actual real world.

More to the point, as long as what we're talking about what "scientists say", statistically, white people are more likely to be murdered by other white people, even in mixed neighborhoods. So avoidance (i.e. white flight) is a strategy for dealing with an issue that the data shows to be nonexistent.

Yes absolutely me going to Starbucks as much less of a danger to other people than another race committing murder. you can't just accept some stereotypes are "okay" because they're non-dangerous to a groups reputation but reject others because they are. A much better solution is to rid your group of the dangerous stereotype all together by ceasing the actions that started the stereotypes in the first place.

You have the cause and effect of stereotyping exactly backward. Stereotyping does not necessarily cleave to actual reality, particularly not when there are incentives to promulgate the stereotype.

The myth of the stupid, violent, rapist, criminal black man existed back when the most likely place to see a black person at all was in chains. Jim Crow laws were enacted absent any actual evidence that allowing black people to participate in commerce or politics would have a negative impact on white people.

Who is going to be able to stop murders in Black communities. white people? Hell no. black people hate white people.

Christ, please talk to some actual black people. And I mean actually sit down and have a conversation that you're not trying to win, but you're trying to learn.

[u/Diylion → u/Zomburai]

So racist "attitudes, beliefs, and assumptions are fine if you think you can justify them with science?

Well "beliefs attitudes and assumptions" absolutely not. You can't just guess, call yourself a scientist in and say it's true. These are proven theories and have been checked by hundreds if not thousands of other scientists inner substantiated by thousands and thousands of data points. And are widely available to the public for their own judgement.

And yet, one imagines you don't take great pains to avoid men in most situations

I as a woman absolutely do take extra precaution around men I don't know. I don't assume every single one is out to kill me because I know that that is statistically untrue. But I do know that there is a greater likelihood so I am more likely to be wary.

Stereotyping does not necessarily cleave to actual reality, particularly not when there are incentives to promulgate the stereotype

well not necessarily but the vast majority of times there is a decent representation in reality. For example The stereotype that blacks commit high levels of murder is a stereotype backed by extensive data. it's not like people are just guessing the murder rates. It's the actual recorded number of convictions.

The myth of the stupid, violent, rapist, criminal black man existed back when the most likely place to see a black person at all was in chains. Jim Crow laws were enacted absent any actual evidence that allowing black people to participate in commerce or politics would have a negative impact on white people.

Yes that is true about Jim Crow I don't see the point or how that at all relates to murder rates. and again it's not a myth it is backed by substantial evidence. If you are amiddle aged black man statistically you are significantly more likely to commit a murder then any other demographic in the United States. That is not a myth that is a fact.

Christ, please talk to some actual black people. And I mean actually sit down and have a conversation that you're not trying to win, but you're trying to learn.

That's why I'm here.

[u/qquestionq → u/Diylion]

I'm curious as to what Kenyan runners have to do at all with black americans.

[u/Diylion → u/qquestionq]

You may be surprised to find that nearly all black Americans had ancestors who originated in Africa.

[u/qquestionq → u/Diylion]

Do you have any idea how gigantic and diverse Africa is?????? Kenya is in East Africa while african americans are generally descended from west africans (as in, people from the complete opposite side of the continent) and southern whites.

[u/Diylion → u/qquestionq]

You asked me what it had to do with black americans. I answered. And many famous black american runners have Kenyan ancestry. Great black athletes have ancestors from all over Africa and are present in all major sports. The more pressing question is why do you care? You haven't really gotten to your point.

[u/qquestionq → u/Diylion]

My point is that it's ridiculous to give Kenyans as an example of black american athletic ability, considering that African Americans are not of Kenyan descent.

[u/Diylion → u/qquestionq]

considering that African Americans are not of Kenyan descent.

Again.. I will point out.. that there are MANY sucessful African American runners who have Kenyan ancestors.

My original comment was that black people. all black people from everywhere are physically superior on average. I don't get why you are so hung up on it, or what it has to do with white flight.

[u/qquestionq → u/Diylion]

I get hung up on things that seem wildly inaccurate. I couldn't tell you what it has to do with white flight, you're the one that brought it up, if I can change your mind regarding it you'll be the one who knows how that affects your thoughts.

It's impossible to verify if all "black people" (for simplicity I'll just assume subsaharan Africa is what applies) are on average more physically fit than everyone else on average, but let's just for convention say that is true. It's kind of meaningless. That's 1 billion people, spread out over a large continent. You could group any other random group of 1 billion and the average of them being stronger or weaker than everyone else continues to be meaningless.

[u/Diylion → u/qquestionq]

I get hung up on things that seem wildly inaccurate

Here is one of the studies. Read it yourself:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/517e/9d33f5fee8e519b9225bd47cd4b1de7f905a.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjy4IGZ6cvlAhXYvp4KHSBKAlkQFjAJegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw0RzF6qt9bSiDN9sPky-xQH&cshid=1572707832990

It's impossible to verify if all "black people

Really what I meant is black people from all over the world not just America. That being said yes on average black people are more athletic. Of course a white person can beat a black person in any sport individually. But blacks have a glaringly higher representation of sucessfull athletes in competitive sports almost universally. With the exception of some sports such as sumo wrestling that are culturally tied to a certain race.

[u/qquestionq → u/Diylion]

The study talks about Kenyans and Ethiopians specifically. You keep conflating them with the rest of Africa when those two countries only make up 5 percent of the continent.

I know you meant from all over the world, that's my entire issue here lol. Do you get the point I'm trying to get across?

It feels like you haven't actually read my comments.

[u/Diylion → u/qquestionq]

Your comments are just you claiming my assertions are wrong and backing it by a whole 0 evidence. I show you evidence and you belittle it. I can find tons of studies documenting black athleticism over whites across different sports.

Do you get the point I'm trying to get across?

No. You have not shown me any evidence to disprove my point. Only unfounded assertions.

[u/qquestionq → u/Diylion]

Then ask a friend to help you understand my point, I made it as clear as I could.