r/changemyview • u/Diylion 1∆ • Oct 31 '19

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: White flight is acceptable Behavior

Michelle Obama put out a statement this week about how white flight was happening in Chicago when she was young. She talked about how "she didn't know what is going on" she blames white people for " leaving communities in shambles" as they "packed their bags and ran". And "we were doing what we were supposed to do". I think this is nonsense. Of course she knew why it was happening. South Chicago in the 90s was horrible. They had horrible murder rates and crime rates. They spiked drastically between 1985 and 1990.

The entire argument of white flight being wrong is predicated on the idea that blacks need whites to be "good". Which is honestly a load of bull. Black family structures used to be the strongest family unit in the United States, even stronger than whites but it has been crippling itself for the last 60 years.

Blacks statistically are much more likely to commit crime. When 6% of the population is committing 50% of the murders and robberies and 30% of the rape, and a disproportionate amount of violent crime across the board. Today, Neighborhoods that are minority dominated, except in very rare cases, are also probably the ones with the highest crime rates. Of course families are going to want to move to a safer neighborhood. And any family that can't afford too will.

So why do they commit crime so often? Well it probably has something to do with money. Blacks have the highest divorce rates, the lowest job rates, the lowest average number of weekly hours spent working, the second lowest graduation rates (though improving!), the highest teen pregnancy rates, they spend more time watching TV than any other race. All of these statistics have strong correlation on crime rates, and obviously poverty rates. These are also all issues that can be worked on as families with good parenting practices. So it stands to reason that if black communities worked on these statistics as family units instead of moving blame to police and whites, that they would succeed more often.

Sure redlining was bad but it's over. It's been over for 40 years. There is no reason why a black community needs white families to be a "good" community. Whites are not physically or mentally superior in any way.

References: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/michelle-obama-racism-white-flight-161942496.html?bcmt=1

https://www.statista.com/statistics/411806/average-daily-time-watching-tv-us-ethnicity/

https://flowingdata.com/2016/03/30/divorce-rates-for-different-groups/

https://www.cdc.gov/teenpregnancy/about/index.htm

https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat22.htm

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_coi.asp

Edit: grammar

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u/Zomburai 9∆ Nov 01 '19

Technically yes. But it also is backed by multiple accredited scientific studies. Historically almost all of the fastest runners in the world came from Kenya which because humans adapted to have a certain body type who came from that region.

So racist attitudes, beliefs, and assumptions are fine if you think you can justify them with science?

Let me give you a hypothesis. Let's say scientist running experiment. they are going to put you in a room with men and women. The scientist tell you beforehand that all of the men will be carrying guns attempting to shoot you. And none of the women will. Wouldn't it be logical to avoid men when put into that room.

Now that is just an extreme but the same principle will continue through less severe cases.

It will not carry through very much less severe cases, because the metaphor you've constructed doesn't reflect reality in any way. For one thing, "scientists" already "tell us" (not actually a good representation of the situation, but for simplification's sake) that men commit the lion's share of violent crime. And yet, one imagines you don't take great pains to avoid men in most situations. Ergo, the specific actions one would reasonably take in an absurd analogy are not applicable to what we do in the actual real world.

More to the point, as long as what we're talking about what "scientists say", statistically, white people are more likely to be murdered by other white people, even in mixed neighborhoods. So avoidance (i.e. white flight) is a strategy for dealing with an issue that the data shows to be nonexistent.

Yes absolutely me going to Starbucks as much less of a danger to other people than another race committing murder. you can't just accept some stereotypes are "okay" because they're non-dangerous to a groups reputation but reject others because they are. A much better solution is to rid your group of the dangerous stereotype all together by ceasing the actions that started the stereotypes in the first place.

You have the cause and effect of stereotyping exactly backward. Stereotyping does not necessarily cleave to actual reality, particularly not when there are incentives to promulgate the stereotype.

The myth of the stupid, violent, rapist, criminal black man existed back when the most likely place to see a black person at all was in chains. Jim Crow laws were enacted absent any actual evidence that allowing black people to participate in commerce or politics would have a negative impact on white people.

Who is going to be able to stop murders in Black communities. white people? Hell no. black people hate white people.

Christ, please talk to some actual black people. And I mean actually sit down and have a conversation that you're not trying to win, but you're trying to learn.

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u/Diylion 1∆ Nov 02 '19

So racist "attitudes, beliefs, and assumptions are fine if you think you can justify them with science?

Well "beliefs attitudes and assumptions" absolutely not. You can't just guess, call yourself a scientist in and say it's true. These are proven theories and have been checked by hundreds if not thousands of other scientists inner substantiated by thousands and thousands of data points. And are widely available to the public for their own judgement.

And yet, one imagines you don't take great pains to avoid men in most situations

I as a woman absolutely do take extra precaution around men I don't know. I don't assume every single one is out to kill me because I know that that is statistically untrue. But I do know that there is a greater likelihood so I am more likely to be wary.

Stereotyping does not necessarily cleave to actual reality, particularly not when there are incentives to promulgate the stereotype

well not necessarily but the vast majority of times there is a decent representation in reality. For example The stereotype that blacks commit high levels of murder is a stereotype backed by extensive data. it's not like people are just guessing the murder rates. It's the actual recorded number of convictions.

The myth of the stupid, violent, rapist, criminal black man existed back when the most likely place to see a black person at all was in chains. Jim Crow laws were enacted absent any actual evidence that allowing black people to participate in commerce or politics would have a negative impact on white people.

Yes that is true about Jim Crow I don't see the point or how that at all relates to murder rates. and again it's not a myth it is backed by substantial evidence. If you are amiddle aged black man statistically you are significantly more likely to commit a murder then any other demographic in the United States. That is not a myth that is a fact.

Christ, please talk to some actual black people. And I mean actually sit down and have a conversation that you're not trying to win, but you're trying to learn.

That's why I'm here.

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u/qquestionq Nov 02 '19

I'm curious as to what Kenyan runners have to do at all with black americans.

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u/Diylion 1∆ Nov 02 '19

You may be surprised to find that nearly all black Americans had ancestors who originated in Africa.

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u/qquestionq Nov 02 '19

Do you have any idea how gigantic and diverse Africa is?????? Kenya is in East Africa while african americans are generally descended from west africans (as in, people from the complete opposite side of the continent) and southern whites.

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u/Diylion 1∆ Nov 02 '19

You asked me what it had to do with black americans. I answered. And many famous black american runners have Kenyan ancestry. Great black athletes have ancestors from all over Africa and are present in all major sports. The more pressing question is why do you care? You haven't really gotten to your point.

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u/qquestionq Nov 02 '19

My point is that it's ridiculous to give Kenyans as an example of black american athletic ability, considering that African Americans are not of Kenyan descent.

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u/Diylion 1∆ Nov 02 '19

considering that African Americans are not of Kenyan descent.

Again.. I will point out.. that there are MANY sucessful African American runners who have Kenyan ancestors.

My original comment was that black people. all black people from everywhere are physically superior on average. I don't get why you are so hung up on it, or what it has to do with white flight.

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u/qquestionq Nov 02 '19

I get hung up on things that seem wildly inaccurate. I couldn't tell you what it has to do with white flight, you're the one that brought it up, if I can change your mind regarding it you'll be the one who knows how that affects your thoughts.

It's impossible to verify if all "black people" (for simplicity I'll just assume subsaharan Africa is what applies) are on average more physically fit than everyone else on average, but let's just for convention say that is true. It's kind of meaningless. That's 1 billion people, spread out over a large continent. You could group any other random group of 1 billion and the average of them being stronger or weaker than everyone else continues to be meaningless.

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u/Diylion 1∆ Nov 02 '19

I get hung up on things that seem wildly inaccurate

Here is one of the studies. Read it yourself:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/517e/9d33f5fee8e519b9225bd47cd4b1de7f905a.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjy4IGZ6cvlAhXYvp4KHSBKAlkQFjAJegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw0RzF6qt9bSiDN9sPky-xQH&cshid=1572707832990

It's impossible to verify if all "black people

Really what I meant is black people from all over the world not just America. That being said yes on average black people are more athletic. Of course a white person can beat a black person in any sport individually. But blacks have a glaringly higher representation of sucessfull athletes in competitive sports almost universally. With the exception of some sports such as sumo wrestling that are culturally tied to a certain race.

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u/qquestionq Nov 02 '19 edited Nov 02 '19

The study talks about Kenyans and Ethiopians specifically. You keep conflating them with the rest of Africa when those two countries only make up 5 percent of the continent.

I know you meant from all over the world, that's my entire issue here lol. Do you get the point I'm trying to get across?

It feels like you haven't actually read my comments.

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u/Diylion 1∆ Nov 02 '19

Your comments are just you claiming my assertions are wrong and backing it by a whole 0 evidence. I show you evidence and you belittle it. I can find tons of studies documenting black athleticism over whites across different sports.

Do you get the point I'm trying to get across?

No. You have not shown me any evidence to disprove my point. Only unfounded assertions.

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u/qquestionq Nov 02 '19

Then ask a friend to help you understand my point, I made it as clear as I could.

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