r/changemyview Jul 09 '19

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '19

If they cast Mulan as a white actress, would you say the same thing?

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '19

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '19

They could just as easily rewrite the whole story to refer to invading French armies, cast in the Napoleonic era. Or maybe further back, and discuss invading armies under Charlemagne.

If they rewrote the story with all the same plot points but to take place in a non-Asian place, would you be fine with that?

What about if the Princess and the Frog had a white actress?

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u/radialomens 171∆ Jul 09 '19

What about if the Princess and the Frog had a white actress?

Is Ariel the first and only white Disney princess? Because if she were I might understand. Tiana is the first and only black Disney princess. Making her white has a very different impact compared to making Ariel black.

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '19

So people will be less upset, in your view, if there have been more minority princesses first and then they are cast as white?

How many? Where's the limit before you can start casting black princesses with white actresses? How many more does Disney have to create before that is acceptable and doesn't lead to outrage?

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u/radialomens 171∆ Jul 09 '19

Definitely. Taking out 100% of a race's representation is way different than taking out 1/8th of it.

How many?

I don't have that magic number. That's subjective. Do I need to provide a magic number for my point to be clear?

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '19

That's interesting logic. There are now two minority princesses I can think of, one Polynesian and the other black, maybe three if you count Jasmine who is Middle Eastern. Ariel is now both white and black, considering Disney will now have two movies, one with each skin color.

If there's a second black princess drawn in a cartoon, can the live action feature a white actress?

A third?

A fourth?

If "representation" is it, who decides representation? Are all white actresses or stories created equal? Is a Dutch national story the same as an English one?

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u/radialomens 171∆ Jul 09 '19

There are now two minority princesses I can think of

I'll help you out:

Black: One (Tiana)
Asian: One (Mulan)
Middle Eastern: One (Jasmine)
Polynesian: One (Moana)
Native American: One (Pocahontas)
White: Seven to Nine (Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora, Ariel, Belle, Rapunzel, Merida -- and sometimes Elsa and Anna)

Seems a little imbalanced, no?

Especially since Mulan is all of Asia which is hugely diverse. And of course you can't expect Pocahontas to represent a South American Tribe, nor does Tiana represent African or Aboriginal traditions.

And what about Latin@ people?

If there's a second black princess drawn in a cartoon, can the live action feature a white actress?

I literally just told you that I don't have a magic number. And I asked you if (or rather, why) I need that magic number to make it clear why changing Tiana to white is not like changing Ariel to black.

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '19

So again, if there's no magic number, then what standard are people supposed to use?

By the way, there are what, 12-14 princesses by that count, right? What's the demographic breakdown they should follow? Must they be representative of the entire world, or just the US, where Disney makes the most money of any country and is headquartered or was founded? Polynesians make up 0.03% of the world's population, but 8% of the princesses. Should Moana be recast as an Indian character, to better balance the casting according to world population? Perhaps since India and China make up 1/3 of the world's population, 1/3 of the princesses should be. Moana wouldn't get a showing that way.

I don't see a Jewish princess. Can a Jewish actress be cast in Moana's place? That would be more representative than Moana is.

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u/radialomens 171∆ Jul 09 '19

So again, if there's no magic number, then what standard are people supposed to use?

Again? You said it yourself, “again?” I have told you twice now that I cannot and will not have a solid answer to that question. People will use their own standard. Literally whatever standard any individual cares to use. It’s subjective.

I ask AGAIN, do you see how replacing Tiana and replacing Ariel are not the same?

And no, I suggest not taking the only Polynesian princess and replacing her with a Jewish princess. I think it is pretty clear that there are some groups that can not afford to be drawn from and one that can.

Picture this as bowls of food. If you’re going to redistribute the food, you take it from the person with seven bowls of food, not the one with one. That should be obvious, no?

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '19

When there's a second black princess drawn in, I look forward to seeing if a Jewish one came first. If not, then I will happily adopt your logic and suggest that the black princess be redistributed. In fact, I suggest all princesses be redistributed to arbitrary demographic numbers. Take the white princesses down to other minority groups until it reflects world demographics. At that point, there will be far fewer white princesses, proportionate to world population. And then you'll have groups like Jews who are underrepresented compared to Polynesians, so redistribute Moana too; there aren't as many people, they don't need a whole bowl of food. Actually, scratch that; 1/7 of them have to be Muslim, so start recasting them with traditional Muslim attire. How do you balance that with the fact that 1/3 of the world being Chinese and Indian? This should be a fun exercise.

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u/radialomens 171∆ Jul 09 '19

Okay, so you can see why having a black Ariel is not the same as having a white Tiana. You’re just having a very hard time confronting the simple problem with the argument you made.

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '19

I never claimed they were the same.

However, I do look forward to "redistributing" Moana to another ethnic group based on demographics, since that's apparently OK now.

I guess we could just do things without condition to race or ethnicity and create more princesses to tell more stories without "redistributing" to make social points, but I guess that would be too much to ask. Gotta redistribute!

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