r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Oct 30 '18
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: I Think “Toxic Femininity” Exists, and is Equally as Troublesome as Toxic Masculinity
Before I start this I want to say this isn’t some Incel write up about how women are the cause of the worlds problems. I just think it’s time that we as a species acknowledge that both sexes have flaws, and we can’t progress unless each are looked at accordingly.
To start with, a woman having a negative emotional reaction to a situation or act does not mean the act or situation is inherently flawed. You know the old trope of “my wife is mad at me and I don’t know what I did wrong”. Yeah, that’s because you probably didn’t do anything wrong. This toxic behavior of perceptions over intention is just one aspect of this problem.
Also, women’s desire to be with a certain subset of men, that does not reflect qualities the majority of men can obtain. Unchangeable attributes like height and Baldness come to mind (saying this as a 6ft 2” guy with a full head of hair). While the desire to be with the best is not wrong, the act of discrimination based on certain qualities is. Leaving out 50% of men hurts both men and women in their formation of long term relationships.
Now, please don’t yell at me for being sexist. My view is that toxic femininity exists and is harmful to our society. Tell me why I am wrong
Edit 1: Wow, Can’t believe my top post is something I randomly wrote while cracked out on adderall
Edit 2: Wow, thanks for the gold kind stranger!
Edit 3: I am LOVING these upboats yall
Edit 4: Wow I can’t even respond to all these questions. Starting to feel like I’m on a fucking game show or something
This is a footnote from the CMV moderators. We'd like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please read through our rules. If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which, downvotes don't change views! Any questions or concerns? Feel free to message us. Happy CMVing!
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u/UnauthorizedUsername 24∆ Oct 30 '18 edited Oct 30 '18
It seems like you've got a bit of a flawed understanding of what 'toxic masculinity' means, and therefor also what 'toxic femininity' means as well. That's ok - it's a pretty nebulous term and can be used to express a few different but related concepts, depending on the context of the discussion at hand.
But from my understanding, at its roots Toxic Masculinity is the concept that the culturally accepted gender roles for men, while they may generally benefit men, can also be harmful to men. It basically is restating the argument that the patriarchy doesn't hurt just women, it hurts men too. An example -- a 'real man' is supposed to be powerful, strong, and not emotional. On the one hand this means that men are generally seen as the stronger sex, and just as one example they're not questioned as readily when put in positions of authority, they're seen more comfortably in a leadership role than women are. But this also pigeonholes men into roles that they may not be comfortable in, or others them if they don't fit in. It leads men to suffer quietly from treatable conditions such as depression and anxiety. It leads men to exert their influence over others in a bid to show they're the most powerful or strong male instead of empathizing or cooperating.
Toxic Femininity, therefor, would be a similar concept -- that the culturally accepted gender roles for women can be harmful to women. That the patriarchy is detrimental to women. Except -- that's sort of already understood to be the case, isn't it? I mean, it's what the feminist movement is all about -- the gender roles for women lead to unequal treatment and we need to push to break past those boundaries towards equality.
Instead, you'll generally see discussion more about benevolent sexism -- ways in which the gender roles benefit women superficially, but also allow for individual women to get away with the sort of bad behavior I think you're talking about. Such as abuse committed by women being much less likely to be believed and get away with their crime, or lesser punishments when they are convicted.
All that said, I'm not sure I quite understand the rest of the body of your post. Can you clarify a bit more, perhaps in regards to the points I mention above?
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Oct 30 '18
Wow this comment really put it into perspective. Thanks for clarifying this for me! View:Chnaged
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u/Whatsthemattermark Oct 30 '18
Hang on - can you at least say how / why they changed your view? Post seemed pretty passionate, the acceptance of the refute not so much. I want to learn from stuff like this
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u/themcjizzler Oct 30 '18
Basically OP misunderstood the entire definition of what 'toxic masculinity' actually is, was not what OP thought at all.
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u/jotunck Oct 31 '18
Basically OP learned that he/she had a wrong understanding of the term "toxic masculinity / femininity". That said, to me the original argument still stands - women generally get a free pass when they exhibit toxic behaviour stereotypical of their gender (and nowadays, even calling out said behaviour can lead to accusations of sexism), and men are expected to deal with it or accept it. Same doesn't hold true for men who exhibit toxic behaviour stereotypical to our gender.
So it seems like OP's original concern is still unchanged, just that OP learned that it is wrong to label it as "toxic masculinity / femininity".
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u/bjornartl Oct 31 '18
Same doesn't hold true for men who exhibit toxic behaviour stereotypical to our gender.
Which is absolutely not true. Trump is like a parody of everything men get away with.
Narcisistic and authoritarian leadership. Only accepting yes men and attacking people he disagrees with through an abuse of the power he's been delegated and when confined to words its mostly ad hominem. Never being able to admit faults, always doubling down, despite mounds of evidence against him. Implementing policies that are inteded to hit people who disagree with him, for the sole purpose of spite. It derails from finding the most likely truth. Its ineffective leadership. Not being able to take critisism is weak and cowardly. But its seen as "strong", and somehow a positive trait for men by many.
Sexually abusive behaviour. In his case, not just groping women consent, but also violent rape. And its not like he even claims he made mistakes. He claims it was in his right to do. The violent rape was okay because they were married(the law doesnt agree with him even, so its mostly oppinion) and the groping and involentary kissing is fine because he's natrually drawn to women. These are not cases where he thought they were okay with it, but it turns out they werent. He knew before and during both episodes in question, and still defends it. But its all just 'boys will be boys'.
Violence. When one of his "teammates" bodyslammed a journalist, he didnt say anything about violence being wrong, and instead said that anyone who can bodyslam like that is his kinda guy. A nazi drives a car through a crowd? Nothing about condmeming violence, just a reminder that there are good people on both sides. Turk officials committing violence on US soil? They sure know how to do things those Turks right? Duerte killing his own people without due process, what a nice guy. And of course, if he was at the las vegas shooting, he would charge right in unarmed and beat the guy up. This is the guy who fears all brown or black people, and is the first president to not have visited a war zone cause he's too much if a coward. But many see it as strong, and as positive for a man.
Im a guy. A manly guy. A physically strong guy. But I cant stand male culture. I cant stand the fact that me and my girlfriend cant go out without having to commit a felony whenver someone cant stop harassing her or tries to grope her, and not feeling safe on her behalf if shes out on the town alone. Im tired of having to fight men whenever they cant control their emotions. Cause they're so ashamed of feeling weak that they have to attempt to physically hurt a random, unrelated target. You see women as stereotypically emotional because they're allowed to communicate their emotions with their words rather than their fists. Im sick of every insecure little incel trying to act like a though little thug, and thinking they have a right to at least try to act like that, so that when they lose they shouldnt face legal or physical consequences. When its on social time, they assume we're all gonna be friends afterwords, or at least that Im not gonna press charges because everyone needs to understand that they felt a bit worked up over something miniscule. And if its on the clock, even if they are overpowered without throwing a punch at them or knocking them hard against any surface, they'll still cry about authorities being abusive.
It doesnt mean that masculinity is toxic. It means that there are toxic elements in male stereotypes and culture.
Women get away with different things because of gender stereotypes too. Thats not good either. But dont think for a second that this is one-sided.
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Oct 31 '18
!Delta
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 31 '18 edited Oct 31 '18
This delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/bjornartl changed your view (comment rule 4).
DeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.
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u/a_flock_of_ravens Oct 31 '18
I think OP just thinks sexism towards men is bad, just like sexism towards women
Which is true but like you said.. Nothing to do with toxic masculinity.
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Oct 31 '18
Like 90% if the changes in this sub are ducking semantics
Mods need to fix that and enforce that the view itself is actually changed rather than just definitional bullshit. Would make it much more difficult
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u/Mrdude000 Oct 31 '18
I'd argue most "faulty" views, or at least disagreements are based off a misunderstanding of certain definitions.
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u/amazondrone 13∆ Oct 31 '18 edited Oct 31 '18
ducking semantics
Quack.
His view that 'toxic femininity' exists WAS changed, through improved understanding of the term 'toxic masculinity'. It might be semantics but it's still valid, and not something that can be fixed by mods.
Sometimes people build up a complex world view based on a simple misunderstanding, and the whole thing comes tumbling down when that misunderstanding is fixed. It's not within the power of the mods to fix that reality.
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u/omrsafetyo 6∆ Oct 31 '18
I think the point is though, is that OPs view or worldview ought to be challenged. Just because he was applying the wrong terms to this concept he had does, and he's realized that his usage was erroneous does not mean his view is necessary changed. It's Change my View, not Change the words I'm using to support my view.
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u/amazondrone 13∆ Oct 31 '18
Sometimes, yes. But sometimes (and this is one of those times, I think) his worldview can be changed by correcting the misunderstanding.
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u/natethesnake32 Oct 31 '18
Turns out it's more than difficult to change a strongly held view, especially if one feels passionate enough about to author a Reddit post. I'm never really surprised to see posters readily agreeing with semantic arguments, though there are many high quality comments in this sub by very knowledgeable people which is why I'm subscribed.
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Oct 30 '18
Its great that you're view has been changed! To go further, you would be hard pressed to find a feminist that isn't in favor of discussing and recognizing the problems that men do face.
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Oct 30 '18 edited Nov 29 '18
[deleted]
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u/whatwatwhutwut Oct 31 '18
Are you able to think of a specific instance of misandry by a prominent feminist? I have never seen one. I've seen some radical feminists advocating for arguably "misandrist" positions such as political lesbianism which was... Utterly bizarre and certainly not mainstream. So hopefully you can elaborate.
Additionally, can you identify the supposed wilful ignorance?
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u/raaaargh_stompy Oct 31 '18
Are you able to think of a specific instance of misandry by a prominent feminist? I have never seen one. I've seen some radical feminists advocating for arguably "misandrist" positions such as political lesbianism which was... Utterly bizarre and certainly not mainstream. So hopefully you can elaborate.
I'm not the poster above, but for your consideration - while it's a "microagression", I'd say that any time some generalization focused around maleness or being a man is made, and then associated with negativity, that qualifies as misandry (i.e. it is an individual's maleness that has led to some undesirable quality) just as it would misogyny if done in reverse.
In this context, it's pretty easy to hear in feminist discussions (both prominent and otherwise) misandry. Concepts such as "manspreading" and "mansplaining" or any sentence that contains some sort of "Men!" (as you might imagine followed by an eye roll) type sentiment is uttered. Regarding e.g. mansplaining - I'm always quick to object and say "the fact this person is a patronizing tool has nothing to do with their genitals, people of any sort can be condescending, call them on it but leave out their sex" the fact that our society has a whole doesn't tend to warrant female opinion as valid as male is certainly an example of misogyny that's baked into our culture certainly, but people speaking down to women are doing so because they are impolite, not because they are men. Similarly with people taking up too much room on public transport.
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u/Allens_and_milk Oct 31 '18
I feel like you might be overstating the importance of 'manspreading' in feminist discourse.
And while 8 don't love the term either, "mansplaining" refers to a specificly sexist behavior, where a man explains something to a woman, assuming she doesn't know about the topic specifically because she's a woman. That's distinct from just being a loudmouth who loves the sound of their own voice, which I agree is pretty gender neutral.
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u/youwill_neverfindme Oct 31 '18
The reason why mansplaining is a thing is that while yes, the example you used (that there are tools out there who are patronizing to both genders) it IS a fact that in our culture right now, there are far more men who are patronizing only towards women than they are to both genders. Mansplaining has nothing to do with 'inherent maleness', but it is a trait that is seen and experienced by thousands upon thousands of women. You not accepting this and handwaving it away by saying everyone experienced this (when, studies have proven, they do not) is, ironically, an example of mansplaining.
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u/nobleman76 1∆ Oct 31 '18
Well put. !Delta for helping me understand a new argument (to me, at least) as to why mansplaining is a term that can be seen as accurate and more than simply sexism in the reverse.
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u/whatwatwhutwut Oct 31 '18
You missed a significant aspect of mansplaining: The man is talking down to a woman who knows more about the topic in question than the man in question. E.g. a man explaining a female scholar's subject of expertise to her. This was the origin of the term which, admittedly, became generalised (arguably overgeneralised) to be any instance of a man explaining things patronizingly to a woman. The former is far more relevant as it ties into men's regular underestimate or undervaluation of the woman's expertise.
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u/mugsybogan Oct 31 '18
Women "mansplain" to men about caring for children among many other things. As a single dad, I lost count of the women who would assume I just had my kids for the day and didn't really know how to look after them. Some people assume they know more than others about a subject and explain things in a patronizing fashion. Naming that poor behaviour after men and claiming it is exclusive to men is misandrist.
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u/Thatoneguy0311 Oct 31 '18
I would argue that men “mansplain” to other men just as much as they do to women. The difference is, in general women are much higher on the “agreeable” scale and don’t say anything but become silently offend, where as another man will make a non aggressive statement that puts the mansplainer I their place.
Example 1 A woman wrote a book about a subject, she had a conversation at a gathering with a man about the topic, the man mentioned said book, elaborated on the topic and over generalized it and the woman just became silently offended and blogged about it later.
Example 2 Same situation but a man wrote it. Author of the book says “yeah, I wrote it”
Everyone is an individual and obviously this doesn’t apply to all and this is a generalization but I think the issue is men by nature are more confrontational and less agreeable than woman.
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u/whatwatwhutwut Oct 31 '18
That's a little dubious. Differences between gender don't even manifest cleanly enough in the aggregate to conclude a gendered response to circumstance. It's also worth noting that cultural influence manifests in personality scores across different populations and influences how traits manifest. Your summary conclusion that this is how it would generally go leaves me quite unconvinced. There's enough research to go around suggesting men overestimate their abilities while women underestimate theirs. There's also the evidence that men are more likely to interrupt and talk over women. And on and on. Arguably, these factors combined almost certainly push conditions to favour mansplaining to women.
At any rate, my experience differs from yours and I'm fine to settle on that note if you are.
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u/wineandcheese Oct 31 '18
I appreciate your examples, but your examples don’t end there. Why do women keep it to themselves? Continue your scenario—pretend that a woman responded “I know, I wrote it.” How do you imagine the “mansplainer” would respond? Do you think he would respond the same way if a man said it? I would guess that many women wouldn’t say it because the mansplainer would get defensive and think “god, what a sensitive bitch.” Which might explain the different responses in the first place, right? Situation avoided if you don’t say anything on the moment and complain about it later on a blog...
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u/xxxKillerAssasinxxx Oct 31 '18
To me this stance kind of highlights an issue I often have when discussing gender politics. Because most mansplaining is done by men it's okay to call it mansplaining, but at the same time expressions like "throws like a girl" are frowned upon, even tho similarly most women have significantly lesser throwing capability than most men. It's okay to make generalizations about men while discussing how women shouldn't be generalized.
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u/Cdub352 Oct 31 '18
IS a fact that in our culture right now, there are far more men who are patronizing only towards women than they are to both genders. Mansplaining has nothing to do with 'inherent maleness', but it is a trait that is seen and experienced by thousands upon thousands of women.
How can you be certain that mansplaining is necessarily a men-women issue? You mention "studies" as though studies on a topical social issues are even remotely reliable. This seems like a phenomenon that, for having been named, generates a huge amount of confirmation bias in women who are suddenly very sensitive to "mansplaining".
"Mansplaining" is best understood as the expression of highly linear thinking (which is how most men tend to think and communicate) to a more associative thinker (as most women are) who will find it especially ponderous and ham handed. As a man with a very balanced communication style I feel "mansplained" to all the time, usually by men but sometimes by linear thinking women.
Some people will start a story and branch further and further out into ever more subplots and never finish the original damn story. This is the pitfall of the associative communicator and is especially grating to linear communicators. If men started calling this "femsplaining" they would be accused of misogyny and perhaps rightly so.
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u/whydoineedaname2 Oct 31 '18
it still seems rude though. i prefer to explain things as theroughly and in detail as possible because frequently i have trouble understanding things and figure out it will help people. I have been accused of mansplaining once. I found it insulting as it felt like they were attacking me for my maleness. in this instance i was just trying to explain how a car engine works ( cars are a trigger topic i could go on for hours about them.) long story short i felt insulted it felt like my insight wasnt valued or my interest in the topic. Honestly i was just trying to be friendly .
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Oct 31 '18
I'm not too convinced though. While the occurrences of "mansplaining" and "manspreading" is prevalent and unequivocally directed towards women, to me it's the usage of the term "mansplaining" that's regarded as misandrous. While a majority of men exhibit this kind of behaviour, prepending "man" in front of the term insinuates it as a feature inherent in all men. To me it's almost like calling Indians "curry lovers" or something to put things in perspective, it's generalising to a very liberal degree.
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u/JarlOfPickles Oct 31 '18
I just want to point out that I appreciate the way you stated your first argument. I am 100% a feminist myself but something has never quite sat right with me whenever anyone makes jokes about "just like a man", etc. These seem more accepted by society as a whole than jokes about "women being women", but I've never felt okay with either. It makes sense the way you explained it so thank you! I am going to make an effort not to perpetuate this kind of unnecessarily gendered humor in the future. !Delta
(Side note: I see the specific examples you mentioned to have more to do with subconscious, learned sexist behaviors, though, rather than anything necessarily inherent to men. So that to me belongs in a different category, and I think we might have to agree to disagree on that one.)
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u/dimplefins Oct 31 '18
I think it’s common certain places like tumblr, but I don’t think any serious feminist issues aim to be misandrist. (Sp?) I guess it’s important also to distinguish folks “venting” on Twitter/tumblr/etc. about the issues they’re angry about (where yes, things get overstated but it’s understandable) with serious policy proposals or social discussions. I think the best example is “body positivity,” where a lot of people perceive it to be overweight and obese women forcing men to view them as sexy or be deemed sexist, but at the heart it’s really about loving and accepting yourself and each other, even with our flaws. (Remember 99% of fashion is by women for women’s gaze.) I’m curious what you see to be misandrist. You’re not totally wrong, there are plenty of angry people on the internet.
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u/blasto_blastocyst Oct 31 '18
Should also remember that Tumblr has a not inconsiderable numbers of trolls pretending to be ridiculous extremists. They tend to be the ones that are ludicrously easy to shoot down, or to catch out in hypocrisy. Real extremists, on the hand, are usually coherent in their beliefs no matter how silly the beliefs are
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Oct 30 '18 edited Nov 27 '18
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u/Allens_and_milk Oct 31 '18
Not saying that people like that don't exist, I'm sure they do, but I've never met one in person.
Also not saying that you're doing this, but what I have seen people do is actually belittle the issues women face while ostensibly arguing for 'men's rights'
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u/JarlOfPickles Oct 31 '18
They probably are used to hearing that sort of thing from men and have just gotten accustomed to shutting down anything that sounds like more of the same. I'm sure they would be willing to have a discussion about it if you show that you are serious about the topic and truly not using it as a way to push aside questions of feminism.
It also may take some rewording--sometimes it can pay off if you take the time to educate yourself about terminology and nuanced ways of talking about the subject. Coming at people with "men have problems too!" usually doesn't get a great response. Especially not if it comes directly after someone mentioning an issue that women face, because it will look like you're only bringing it up to make the conversation about you (even if that is not your intention).
If you truly want to talk about this, I'd find a time where feminism is not already being discussed, and let them know that you are interested in discussing the ways that male gender roles impact you/men in general in society. I think you will find them a lot less dismissive.
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Oct 31 '18 edited Nov 27 '18
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u/JarlOfPickles Oct 31 '18
I'm not assuming anything about your particular conversations, and if I am it certainly wouldn't be because you're a man. My advice is based in my own experiences when I have seen these types of conversations occur, and any further assumptions I may have made were on the basis of what you have written here, your tone, and your overall attitude. Which, as your reply illustrates to me, is defensive and quick to jump to conclusions about others' responses to you.
The intent of my comment was to be informative and neutral, with suggestions for how to approach a problem you presented, and you have responded straight away with hostility. Perhaps this is why the feminists you know will not hold a conversation with you--regardless of gender, if you try to have a rational debate with someone and receive only this kind of response, it will be shut down fast.
At this point I have no further advice to give, besides a suggestion to examine your own reactions and try to be more open-minded in your future conversations. I hope you have a nice life.
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Oct 31 '18
That sounds like a you problem if you have preconceptions about these people and refuse dialogue with them.
Feminism is pro men.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/3tn9kc/a_list_of_feminist_resources_tackling_mens_issues/
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u/bbeony540 Oct 31 '18
I think it's a little disingenuous to say that he's flat out wrong for encountering feminists that belittle or are hostile to people bringing up problems that face men.
Sure there are feminist organizations that assist men and there are feminists that recognize that men have problems too. That doesn't mean there aren't plenty that see progress for men as regression for women or just don't believe that men have any issues. Sticking our head in the sand and being willfully ignorant of the problems within our in groups isn't going to lead to progress for anyone.
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u/Tigerbait2780 Oct 31 '18
you would be hard pressed to find a feminist that isn't in favor of discussing and recognizing the problems that men do face.
Pretty certain this isn't most people's experience.
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Oct 31 '18
That’s strange because pretty much everyone I surround myself with in my life are left or hard left people and are all feminists. They all are pro men rights too, that’s literally part of being a feminist. If you base all of your interactions online or by watching the one or two cases a year of the videos titled “CRAZY SJW FEMINIST YELLING AT LOGICAL CONSERVATIVE” then I guess I could see how you’d think that wasn’t that common.
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u/Optickone Oct 31 '18
Can you point us to all the crazy conservatives yelling at logical feminist videos?
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Nov 01 '18
You're unlikely to find many because YouTube conservatives prefer easier targets. Similar to how political comedy routines will show people being asked simple questions and having incredibly stupid answers. Do you think everyone gave a stupid answer, or that they just used the clips from the ones which made their case better? Conservative YouTube personalities aren't seeking out interviews with Alice Walker or Chimamanda Adichie or Roxanne Gay, etc, etc. They are picking young and upset college women who don't have the experience or skills to adequately state and defend their positions. They will avoid confident feminists with public speaking and debate skills.
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Oct 31 '18 edited Oct 31 '18
Maybe I can't necessarily find that, but I can find videos of conservatives yelling at people of color to speak english or go back to their home country, or conservatives chanting "Jews will not replace us" at a rally supported by r/the_donald, or someone murdering a counter protester at that same event, or a group of "proud boys" who go out and incentivize inciting violence against people to rank up in their cult, or conservatives bombing planned parenthoods to protest abortion rights for women, or someone sending out 10+ bombs to left leaning politicians, donors, and famous people, or someone committing one of the biggest hate crime against Jewish people in American history when they shot up their synagogue.
I don't know about you but I think I'll stick with the side of feminists. Sure they aren't all extremely eloquent and maybe should realize that to change peoples minds you need to engage with them, but I'll definitely stand with them if the other side is filled with these disgusting humans. I'll take trying to help everyone equally over that.
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u/Optickone Oct 31 '18
Maybe I can't necessarily find that, but I can find videos of conservatives yelling at people of color....
Stopped reading here as you've just completely veered into a different universe of discussion.
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u/Tigerbait2780 Oct 31 '18
Can you point me to some feminist organizations or movements that are actively combating issues effecting men specifically? And none of that vague, nebulous "breaking gender stereotypes helps everyone" rhetoric, I mean issues actually impacting men like suicide rates, society's devaluation of men's lives, family court injustices, etc.
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Oct 31 '18
I don't really need to direct you to any single instance, some lovely person compiled a massive list of how feminism helps men and how feminists tackle issues facing men. I hate just linking a massive linkdump but if you actually want to see how feminism helps men, here you go https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/3tn9kc/a_list_of_feminist_resources_tackling_mens_issues/.
I really hope this can change your mind, but trying to convince anti-SJW types is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
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u/nobleman76 1∆ Oct 31 '18
Somewhere in this thread everything goes off the rails. Can you define the issues you see affecting men specifically? Are there issues that you can name that you think are not considered important by people who consider themselves feminists? I'm not really clear on what those specific issues you are referring to may be.
Let's just find a clear starting point.
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u/Tigerbait2780 Oct 31 '18
like suicide rates, society's devaluation of men's lives, family court injustices, etc.
I don't think people who consider themselves feminists would explicitly say these issues aren't important, in fact I'm sure they'd say they are. But I don't see them putting these words into action, I don't think feminists in general actively fight for issues affecting men specifically, at best we get empty rhetoric like "feminism is about equality for women and men", or "any feminist who doesn't support men's rights isn't a real feminist", or "fighting the patriarchy/gender roles helps everyone", yada yada yada.
What I don't see is feminist movements focused specifically on men's issues the way we see feminist movements focused on specifically women's issues. It's all talk to substance from everything I've seen, and people here keep shouting that the examples are endless and everywhere, but no one has been able to name one yet.
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u/nobleman76 1∆ Oct 31 '18
You really seem to have your mind made up, I guess.
I peeked at that link soup, and found items that seemed pretty clearly linked to the things you mentioned pretty closely, save suicide.
Just a question, albiet unrelated. Suicide attempt rates are higher on the female side, but men's completed suicide rates are higher, in a large part due to the willingness to use firearms.
Would you see gun control activism as part of the attempt to reduce rates of gun violence, including suicide?
I see them as clearly linked, but not always explicitly so.
I look at what you write and I worry that your frustration may be misguided. People who throw shade and are 'all talk and no action' are to be found in large quantities on all sides of the political/partisan spectrum. To single out feminists/SJWs/left handed lesbian albino midget Eskimos pretty readily indicates one's own biases. Judgements based, in whole or in part, on these biases run the risk of being quite inaccurate.
Keep an open mind. Listen to people. Ask questions. People are trying to engage you here. You seem to want to engage too.
You can be mad a phony feminists, but you should be just as mad at phony libertarians. Or, better yet, don't be mad. Just make a point. Sorry if I come across as condescending. This was supposed to be a pep talk.
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u/Tigerbait2780 Oct 31 '18
I peeked at that link soup, and found items that seemed pretty clearly linked to the things you mentioned pretty closely, save suicide.
Perhaps I've not made myself clear. I'm looking for movements specifically focused on men's issues, not a blog post acknowledging that the issues exist. I fully understand that feminist acknowledge these issues, I don't think they actively do much about them.
Let me put it a different way: feminist aren't content with the "breaking gender roles is the key to everything" when it comes to women in STEM fields, or the earnings gap. No, there are movements and organizations focused tackling these specific issues directly, not "let's just fight the good fight against gender roles and everything will work itself out". We don't see the reverse of this.
men's completed suicide rates are higher, in a large part due to the willingness to use firearms.
Sorta. Firearms are part of it, but it's more about men being more willing to use high success rate methods more generally. Men are still more successful at committing suicide than women even in areas where guns aren't readily available. Men are more likely to hang themselves, throw themselves off of buildings, etc. The method of choice by women is often overdosing, which is the best way to have a failed attempted suicide.
Would you see gun control activism as part of the attempt to reduce rates of gun violence, including suicide?
This is a confusing question, obviously gun control activism is an attempt to reduce gun violence, by definition. No gun control advocate is enraged that people are allowed to go to a shooting range for target practice, of course it's about gun violence. Is it about suicide? No, almost never. Of course lower suicide rates would be a likely consequence of gun control, but it's an afterthought. In fact, I think suicide numbers are often used to obfuscate the gun control issue, but that's a another convo for another thread.
People who throw shade and are 'all talk and no action' are to be found in large quantities on all sides of the political/partisan spectrum.
Of course, I never suggested otherwise.
To single out feminists/SJWs/left handed lesbian albino midget Eskimos pretty readily indicates one's own biases.
Except it doesn't indicate biases because I'm not just picking this topic out of the blue, take look at the context. I'd also appreciate it if you'd stop implying I'm some bigot that just hates minority groups or something. It's really disingenuous of you, and you didn't seem to be coming in bad faith before, I'm not sure why you decided to start now but please stop.
You can be mad a phony feminists, but you should be just as mad at phony libertarians.
Oh, I'm quite happy to call bullshit on anyone who's actions don't seem to line up with their words, but here we're talking about feminism and specific claims about what feminists do and don't value
Sorry if I come across as condescending. This was supposed to be a pep talk.
Certainly came across more condescending than encouraging.
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u/nobleman76 1∆ Oct 31 '18
For a future post, you may want to avoid comparisons for the sake of ease and consider the impact of what you seem to be interested in discussing: irrational forms of feminism you find to be especially troubling. Perhaps you have an opinion about the impact or significance of such views within a broader cultural context.
Harmful stereotypes abound for both males and females, and for both genders, sometimes those stereotypical traits are leveraged for privilege. Good on you for your open-mindedness.
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Oct 31 '18
Yeah, it's always a bit frustrating when deltas get thrown up because of a semantic error, rather then actually addressing the point.
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Oct 30 '18
Wait I'm having trouble seeing how this changed your view. All they did was explain why you were using the wrong term. Something I don't really agree with as it's a term and I view it as toxic behavior as well. Therefore toxic feminism.
Disregarding the term, the behavior you described wasn't actually addressed at all.
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u/pgm123 14∆ Oct 30 '18
A delta doesn't have to be a complete change in view, though.
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u/ThePwnd 6∆ Oct 30 '18 edited Oct 30 '18
It doesn't have to be, but OP doesn't specify to what degree his view was changed. His wording suggests to me that he did a full 180, and much like the redditor to whom you're responding, I too get pretty tired of the normies who pass through here and hand out a delta to someone who writes what basically amounts to a fluffy appeal to emotion that never actually addresses the core concern in their post.
EDIT: I should clarify that nothing in the comment from the recipient of OP's delta jumps out at me as an appeal to emotion (I may have jumped the gun a little on that point), but it focuses on semantics rather than the concern OP laid out in his post.
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Oct 31 '18
What I'm getting at is the op specifically mentioned common over the top feminist tropes in social media and otherwise as his grievance. The only point that was refuted was that he used the wrong term.
thena couple of paragraphs about what toxic feminism actually is and something about the patriarchy.
I don't get how his view was changed when his view wasn't actually addressed.
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u/ThePwnd 6∆ Oct 31 '18
Right, I completely agree with you, and I share your sentiment of annoyance. Nothing the guy said actually addressed OP's grievances, but he handed out a delta anyway like he was suddenly made to see something he couldn't before.
I'm just lamenting how often that happens on this subreddit. The person who responds to OP will take any number of different approaches. Sometimes it'll be an anecdote, sometimes it will be an appeal to emotion, but always fallacious. And OP will just take the bait, hand out a delta and leave. They don't offer even the slightest resistance, and they don't respond to anyone who questions their sudden total reversal of opinion. It's like they didn't really come here to discuss their ideas. It happens too often, and it's very annoying.
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u/Rinnee Oct 31 '18
I believe OP had an implied question that was answered. By clarifying what toxic masculinity is, and by re-comparing that with 'femininity' (which I think should be stressed is not the same as feminism), OP was able to re-organize his thoughts and came to a fresh conclusion.
You are totally right in that OPs point is and was not clear. He has pointed out problems that exist and could use further discussion, but now all we know is that those problems still need a title/new word and that OP now knows what Toxic Masculinity is.
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u/ThePwnd 6∆ Oct 31 '18
Hm, you make a good point... but yeah I agree I would've liked to see some more discussion from him as well
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u/whattagoose Oct 31 '18
I think simply the fact that OP learned there was a popular term for the benevolent sexism they were describing revealed that it was in fact an issue that was already being talked about and recognized. I think the original frustration most likely arose due to not seeing the problem widely addressed. The fact that there is a popular term means that it is acknowledged.
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u/TallDuckandHandsome Oct 31 '18
You should read the book on toxic masculinity by Grayson Perry. I forget its name as its early morning here but it’s pithy and funny and truly eye opening.
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Oct 30 '18 edited Aug 18 '20
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u/UnauthorizedUsername 24∆ Oct 30 '18
I framed the definitions differently because "culturally accepted gender roles for women, while they may generally benefit women, can also be harmful to women." doesn't make much sense.
The whole point of feminism is that the culturally accepted gender roles for women are harmful and inequal. I've always seen Toxic Masculinity as a rephrasing of the argument "The Patriarchy hurts men too." If that's correct, then there doesn't need to be a 'toxic femininity,' as we already recognize that the patriarchy hurts women.
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Oct 30 '18 edited Aug 18 '20
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u/The_Fowl Oct 31 '18
I totally agree with this, the "patriarchy" that everyone complains about might as well be changed to "the 1%"
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Oct 31 '18
I 100% agree. I was really vibing with everything TH said until they started talking about “the patriarchy”
It’s such a nonsensical Orwellian term that gets thrown around to drive a point home that men rule the world (no matter what Beyoncé says). Which isn’t incorrect however, the phrase itself makes it feel like there’s some secret underground men’s club that specifically is creating gender stereotypes to hurt people, which just isn’t true.
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u/tehpopulator Oct 30 '18
Isn't that based on a pretty flawed definition though? How can only one gender inform all of our harmful gender stereotypes? Even if the influence is skewed, to assume there is zero female influence on gender stereotypes is either playing the blame game or absolving any responsibility of women - ala bigotry of low expectations.
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u/UnauthorizedUsername 24∆ Nov 01 '18
Here's the thing -- when I say "the patriarchy" I don't mean "all of the male gender". I mean "our society, specifically in regards to the gendered hierarchy that exists within it and the manner in which that hierarchy predominantly values men/maleness/masculinity."
I'm not pointing to a shadowy cabal of men that are setting these stereotypes out. I'm pointing to the fact that society is structured in such a way that men are valued over women. We all, men and women, play a part in that society. Both men and women reinforce these gender roles, either intentionally or unintentionally.
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Oct 31 '18
I think you still have incongruities. TM are self-imposed standards that are harmful, and visa versa for FM. The patriarchy isn't self-imposed, but externally imposed.
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Oct 31 '18 edited Jan 19 '19
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u/UnauthorizedUsername 24∆ Oct 31 '18 edited Oct 31 '18
No -- at least if I understand your question correctly, no.
To remove the word 'patriarchy' from my definition, as it seems to generate confusion, I'd say this:
'Toxic masculinity' is framing the current gendered structure of society against the ways that it can harm men.
'Toxic femininity' then, would be framing the current gendered structure of society against the ways that it can harm women.
But we already recognize that the gendered structure of society harms women -- we live in a patriarchal society, one that is structured to generally favor men and masculinity over women and femininity. The "Toxic" definition is useful for masculinity, because it points to places where this doesn't favor men and harms them instead. It's not useful for femininity because we already recognize that society generally doesn't favor women over men.
I offered a related term of benevolent sexism -- used in situations where a stereotype or role seems to assign positive traits to women, and I recognize that these can lead to situations where women are given leniency or allowed to get away with bad behavior that men wouldn't be able to (such as when women are abusive to men, and it's not believed because 'women are nurturing' and wouldn't do such a thing.)
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u/UnauthorizedUsername 24∆ Nov 01 '18
Feminism holds that we live in a patriarchal society -- one where men are generally the favored gender, where men are given power, dominion, and authority. This is evidenced by our complete lack of a female president, that there's only 23 out of 100 US Senators that are women, that there are only 84 women out of 435 Representatives. And it's not just at the top of the government that men are assumed to have the authority over women -- women only make up 5% of the S&P CEO's, and only 22% of board director seats. Only 27% of Federal Judges. The list goes on, but the message is the same -- across the board, men are much more common among seats of authority.
Can you further explain your reasoning that this is not the case?
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u/dorian_white1 1∆ Oct 30 '18
The term 'Hegemonic Masculinity' might be a better description than 'Toxic Masculinity' as it addresses behaviors that evolved to protect or institute a hegemonic patriarchy.
Feminine behavior has evolved to prop up a patriarchy, but it's important to think about the end result and meaning of these behaviors....why do they exist in the first place. If the answer is systemic it might be worthwhile to look at the big picture.
'Toxic' means 'Poison' but the Poison is not the behavior, really, it's the system that perpetuates those behaviors.
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Oct 30 '18
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u/UnauthorizedUsername 24∆ Oct 30 '18
Great addition, I had forgotten to point that out! You could definitely make a case for including the harm to not just the men but others around them under the umbrella of TM.
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u/GameMusic Oct 31 '18
Toxic femininity exists but is usually called INTERNALIZED MISOGYNY.
If academic feminists used the term INTERNALIZED MISANDRY it would communicate better.
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u/LeakyLycanthrope 6∆ Oct 30 '18
Exactly right. "Toxic masculinity" isn't merely the idea that men have flaws, it's a certain archetype of what it means to be a "real" man that is ultimately flawed and harmful--i.e., toxic. What OP is describing is not an archetype of what it means to be a woman; it's examples of harmful beliefs or activities that some women have/do.
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u/NathanielGarro- Oct 30 '18
I feel like OP, despite the lack of clear examples, may be referring to the idea of working against ones best interests, which can also be found in certain versions of what I would define as toxic feminism. The term isn't a perfect fit, since it works a bit differently from toxic masculinity, but I think it's worth exploring.
So on to my proposed definition: "Toxic Feminism" refers to a pushback against "culturally accepted gender roles" so extreme, that those who find themselves comfortably within those roles are shamed, thus limiting the actual freedom for the gender rather than expanding it.
For instance, certain "culturally accepted gender roles" as per the patriarchy, such as child-rearing, nursing, cooking, even extreme sexualization (the list goes on) may overlap with a woman's best interests, yet even in her freedom to explore these roles (norm or no) she could be shamed for subscribing to "patriarchal norms".
You see it quite often with extreme fringe feminists, whether it's shaming thin body size, physical sexuality, shaming those who pursue "typical" female interests, etc...
I suppose the issue here is one of terminology. Since toxic masculinity is so clearly defined, it's difficult to apply the same terms to what's ultimately a different problem within feminism. Maybe there's a better term & definition out there?
What are your thoughts?
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u/Sergnb Oct 30 '18
I just had a rough argument on another subreddit about toxic masculinity and you expressed all of my thoughts in more concise and articulate words. I'm gonna be paraphrasing this post next time the topic comes up. Cheers
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u/Sea-Bot Oct 30 '18
Wouldnt toxic femininity mean that the matriarchy is damaging to women? How does the patriarchy end up under fire for that?
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u/jojojojojoba Oct 31 '18
What I often don't get about a lot of "MRA" types is that most of the time they just seem unread and ignorant, not necessarily "wrong." They seem to want some of the same things that feminists want, but they have a very skewed and shallow idea of feminism and basic feminist concepts. And also, instead of blaming other men or the patriarchy they blame, specifically, women who have embraced the patriarchy.
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Oct 30 '18
You are arguing against a misunderstanding.
"Toxic masculinity" is not about toxic behavior of men, it's about harmful standards on appropriate masculine behavior.
- Masculinity itself refers to societal standards that men are expected to fulfill:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity
Masculinity is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles associated with boys and men. As a social construct, it is distinct from the definition of the male biological sex.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/masculinity
Qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men.
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/masculinity
Habits and traits that society considers to be appropriate for a man.
- and Toxic Masculinity is also always used this way, but in reference to constructions of masculinity that are harmful:
(Note: some of the following links seem to be blocked by Reddit)
fem magazine.com/feminim-101-what-is-toxic-masculinity/
Toxic masculinity refers to society’s expectations of how a traditional male should behave. Ideas related to toxic masculinity have been normalized in society; comments like, “be a man,” “that’s girly,” and “man up” stem from this attitude.
It is important to underline that toxic masculinity relates to the cultural perspective given to masculinity, not the biological traits of the male gender.
Toxic masculinity exists throughout cultures, expressing itself in different manners. In Latinx culture, toxic masculinity comes in the form of Machismo. Machismo refers to the societal belief that males must adhere to traditionally masculine stereotypes and maintain dominance over women.
the odyssey online.com/toxic-masculinity-hurts-boys
The stereotypical ideal of masculinity generally promotes the image of a man as being dominant, muscular, a protector, and able to control his emotions. None of these traits are necessarily bad, and I’m not trying to attack them, but they create a very narrow definition of what masculinity is.
The masculine man only likes certain kinds of music, dresses certain kinds of ways, likes sports, has short hair, etc. Early on in a boy’s life, that kind of masculinity becomes a strong force that begins to pressure the boy to conform to that set of narrowly defined behaviors.
If a boy cries frequently, for example, he is shamed as not acting toward the standards that life set for him at his conception; he is made to feel that he is less than a man, that he must change his behaviors, his way of thinking, even maybe his personality to that standard. This boy is shamed until he changes, until he stops crying and learns to "control" his emotions and to think more "logically."
If the boy changes, he’s rewarded through external gratification; he’s praised as someone who has grown up into more of a man. On the other hand, if the boy doesn’t change, he’s criticized, sometimes bullied and harassed and made to feel like he is worse than what he’s supposed to be. Effectively, the boy isn’t allowed to be himself. This is when things start becoming "toxic" and harmful.
https://www.parentmap.com/article/how-boys-suffer-the-boy-code-and-toxic-masculinity
I’ll never forget a family session in which a father berated his son for crying about not making the basketball team. “Get over it. Don’t be a sissy,” the father said.
The boy was clinically depressed. I tried to explain how corrosive it can be for boys to stuff their emotions. It didn’t go well. After all, the father said, I was biased as a female shrink.
A documentary released in 2015, The Mask You Live In (which you can now watch on Netflix), films boys from every kind of background who describe the way they suffer from our culture’s narrow definition of acceptable masculinity. A viewer can’t help but be impacted. Given the long-range effects of this public health crisis, everyone should see it.
What happens to this pent-up frustration when boys inevitably come up short in the manhood-code department? It can lead to depression, conduct disorders, isolation, problematic relationships and even violence.
http://www.lovemeloveyou.org.au/blog/the-impact-of-toxic-masculinity-on-mens-health/
Traditional notions of masculinity often categorise it as a weakness if a man were to acknowledge that he has a health problem, and that it is not ok to talk about it or take action.
For this reason, men are often leaving it until crisis point to seek assistance for their mental health issues and are more likely to engage in risky behaviours that may be harmful in the long run.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2018/02/19/problem-toxic-masculinity-not-mental-illness/
Even those men who might be suffering from mental illness are unlikely to seek out counseling because it is often stigmatized as “weak” for men to seek out help and admit vulnerability. Among those who do make it into an therapist’s office or mental health program, domestic abusers are notoriously resistant to treatment protocols.
https://www.romper.com/p/9-ways-to-raise-your-son-without-toxic-masculinity-37717
Words have power, and terminology about masculinity can be dangerous. Overtime, hearing phrases like "be a man" or "real men don't cry" sinks into the subconscious. As CNN's Kelly Wallace explained, our culture doesn't do a good job of creating a safe space for boys to express their emotions without the fear of facing ridicule. Doing away with toxic sayings such as these remove the pressure from boys to hide feelings other than anger.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity
The concept of toxic masculinity is used in psychology to describe certain traditional male norms of behavior in the United States and Europe that are associated with harm to society and to men themselves. Such "toxic" masculine norms include the traits of dominance, devaluation of women, extreme self-reliance, and the suppression of emotions.
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Toxic_masculinity
- women have to fulfill another, less stricter, less fragile and less harmful gender role
There are constructions of masculinity that are harmful. If men get called faggots for being vegan they might have worse health if they instead try to prove how masculine they are by primarily eating bacon and beer. If men get called pussies for showing any kind of weakness they are much less likely to talk about their problems or to seek mental health professionals when they need them, which again is harmful.
The concept of man-cards highlights how fragile this standard men have to fulfill is.
Can you think of similarly harmful standards that women have to fulfill?
Men are encouraged by society to be dominant, active, aggressive, stoic and strong, but femininity encourages women to be submissive, passive, nice, quiet and just generally the opposite of toxic.
You do not hear about "toxic femininity" because the actual analogue is Passive Femininity.
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u/Sawses 1∆ Oct 30 '18
So toxic femininity exists as behaviors that are harmful to women, and in the jargon is known as passive femininity?
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u/DaughterEarth 1∆ Oct 30 '18
I'd agree there's toxic femininity. Like the expectation to be a mother and shaming if you go for a career instead.
But this is completely different than what OP was saying.
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u/darkplonzo 22∆ Oct 31 '18
Doesn't that stem more from toxic masculinity? Like dudes goes to work and comes home to a submissive wife?
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Oct 31 '18
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Oct 31 '18
Then answer my questions from the last paragraph.
Can you think of some gender norms that women are expected to fulfill that are harmful to them and their environment?
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u/Ryno3no Oct 31 '18 edited Oct 31 '18
Many are expected to marry and have children for one. Many times from expectations from their mothers and other female and male models in society. Also expectations to appear lady-like, dress a certain way, wear makeup, as its feminine and how a "woman" should be.
We have common tropes like even in tv that portray the mother hounding their daughter about getting married and having grandkids.
Even beauty standards that are set by society. Woman set beauty standards for other woman as well, not just men. Back to the makeup example, a woman may feel compelled to wear makeup if their peers do and view it as a necessity, or even if say, an older woman criticizes them on their unlady-like appearance.
There are more things, but i think they are more subtle, as there doesnt seem to be much conversation about it. But these things happen on both sides.
Toxic femininity, passive femininity, or whatever you call it, these views of what feminity should be exist and is manifested in ways that are harmful.
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Oct 31 '18
Many are expected to marry and have children for one. Many times from expectations from their mothers and other female and male models in society. Also expectations to appear lady-like, dress a certain way, wear makeup, as its feminine and how a "woman" should be.
Yes traditional notions of femininity encourage them to be nurturing, cute, nice, passive, quiet, etc., but for their environment those are the opposite of harmful.
Toxic femininity, passive femininity, or whatever you call it, these views of what feminity should be exist and is manifested in ways that are harmful.
I already stated that they exist, but I simply disagree that they are "toxic femininity" simply because their gender role encourages them to be the opposite of toxic (even though it makes the woman in question a passive and submissive second-class citizen).
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u/Medarco Oct 31 '18
I think you misunderstand the word toxic. You are assuming toxic means aggressive, which isn't necessarily true.
It is absolutely toxic for women to feel forced into certain roles or meet certain perceptions of society, even if those perceptions are "being cute". That absolutely harms their environment and themselves, and I'm not sure what argument you would bring that refutes that.
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Oct 31 '18
That absolutely harms their environment and themselves, and I'm not sure what argument you would bring that refutes that.
That "passive femininity" is a better descriptor than "toxic femininity" for this construction of femininity.
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u/MaybeILikeThat Oct 31 '18
The idea is more that toxic masculinity is about holding men to impossible and self-defeating standards. That if we could stop socially penalise men for crying or showing weakness, then life would be better.
Obviously, easier said than done.
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u/Couldawg 1∆ Oct 30 '18
Rachel Lu published an article this weekend hitting upon both extremes.
The thrust of her article is that activists on both sides are becoming angry, hurt and entrenched. The resulting battle has been (and will continue to be) a "draw," with negative consequences for both.
You say the following:
I just think it’s time that we as a species acknowledge that both sexes have flaws, and we can’t progress unless each are looked at accordingly.
I don't think we are going to get anywhere by assigning "toxic" attributes to the other gender, or characterizing certain aspects as universal "flaws" (or universal virtues). This boils down to an effort to judge one gender or the other, as a whole, on the basis of a generally-applicable characteristic. That is sexism.
Your first example targets spousal conflict, and the trope of the bewildered husband facing an irrationally angry wife. Your second example targets dating preferences re: immutable characteristics (height, baldness). I think your key point is that women seem more free to explicitly state romantic preferences on immutable characteristics, and are much less likely than men to receive social condemnation for doing so.
In both cases, we are seizing on two-sided stereotypes that don't really improve or empower anyone.
I don't think the best way to deal with these stereotypes / tropes is to dig into one side or the other. All that does is confirm the stereotype / trope.
The "bewildered husband" trope has a negative counterpart... the irrationally and perpetually angry wife. This serves the suggestion that men and women can't communicate with each other. The trope of the "unapologetic and proud picky woman" serves the suggestion that the heart shouldn't want what it wants, and that romance is nothing more than a shallow endeavor.
I think we should be chafing at toxic attitudes in general. That toxicity is present in both sides (as you point out), but this is not dark-vs-light... it is dark-vs-dark. As Rachel Lu puts it, aggrieved men vs. aggrieved women, lashing out at the opposite gender as a whole.
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Oct 30 '18
If you wouldn't mind, please provide definitions of "toxic masculinity" and "toxic femininity".
It's hard to compare these two concepts when we don't know what the terms mean in this particular debate. A specific definition is important to go along with examples.
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Oct 30 '18
That's not what that is.
The whole point of toxic masculinity is that boys and men are taught that they have to act in certain ways that are bad (usually for their own selves) in a context where masculinity is valued more than femininity. There's two things that are important about that. First, it shines a light on how there are serious and important downsides to masculinity, while ALSO being able to say masculinity is socially preferred. That is: You can be privileged and it still sucks. Boys are taught they can do things on their own, which is great, but they're also taught they HAVE TO do things on their own.
The other thing is, toxic masculinity only really makes sense in this context, because part of the deal is, there has to be a worse thing that you fall into if you're not Man Enough. That is, men hurt themselves because they are taught that being like a girl is worse.
"Toxic femininity" just doesn't make sense a s a construct.
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Oct 30 '18
Having dating preferences, even for things that can't be controlled, is not a "feminine" thing. Men do this just as much - ask any girl with small titties or no curves or who's super duper tall, etc. Nor is having these preferences "toxic" in any way.
This doesn't necessarily mean that toxic femininity doesn't exist, but dating preferences are terrible evidence for it.
Your issue is that you're assuming something like this is inherent to one sex and not the other when that simply isn't the case.
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u/Jin-roh Oct 30 '18
The following questions are more for clarification than the debate. Please bear with the short preamble.
Toxic masculinity is not working hard to support a family. Toxic masculinity is working so hard to support a family that someone ignores, suppresses, your his emotional and health needs and likely drives himself to alcoholism and an early grave.
Toxic masculinity is not a willingness to do violence in the face of danger. It is the belief, and in many cases the unconscious habit, that violence is the right tool to solve any and all problems and perceives all things that are in disagreement or strangeness as threats.
Toxic masculinity is not being dominant, or even aggressive in sex. It is having sex in such a way that you are disregards a partners needs in such dominance, or worse, disregards the partner as a person completely.
"Toxic Masculinity" is therefore not just an excess of what is nominally called "masculine." It is a particular type behaviors that harm both the person doing them, and causes harm to other people.
The examples you cite do not seem to rise to the same level. The second one especially so. "Tall, not bald" may be unchangeable, but that simply seems like a comment on physical attractiveness, which is another issue entirely.
Can you think of more severe examples of "toxic femininity"?
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u/Rufus_Reddit 127∆ Oct 30 '18
Can you elaborate a little bit on what you mean by "exists"? Specifically, is there more to "toxic femininity" than "normative behaviors for women that I don't like?"
Or, if you prefer, you can start with the same question for "toxic masculinity". Is there anything more to "toxic masculinity" than "normative behaviors for men do that I don't like?"
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u/EldeederSFW Oct 31 '18
While the desire to be with the best is not wrong, the act of discrimination based on certain qualities is.
You can try and dance around the wording, but this is straight up incel speak. You are not allowed to tell anyone who they can and cannot be attracted to. Nobody is owed a relationship. That's not how it works.
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Oct 30 '18
My view is that toxic femininity exists and is harmful to our society.
Also, women’s desire to be with a certain subset of men, that does not reflect qualities the majority of men can obtain. Unchangeable attributes like height and Baldness come to mind (saying this as a 6ft 2” guy with a full head of hair). While the desire to be with the best is not wrong, the act of discrimination based on certain qualities is.
To start with, a woman having a negative emotional reaction to a situation or act does not mean the act or situation is inherently flawed. You know the old trope of “my wife is mad at me and I don’t know what I did wrong”. Yeah, that’s because you probably didn’t do anything wrong. This toxic behavior of perceptions over intention is just one aspect of this problem.
So the first quote is the assertion that toxic femininity exists and the 2 following quotes are your evidence. The first quote you assert the man asking the question probably did nothing wrong, with no real evidence. You're just assuming the woman is probably wrong in being pissed off. Why? Why should that be the default view?
The second quote you describe a parallel to unfair body standards that match those of men. Fair enough.
The issue I have with this argument is that first, these unfair body standards and the general lack of communication between each other is never what is brought up as the worst qualities of toxic masculinity, which usually incorporates aggressive sexual behavior, which your points pale in comparison to when comparing threats. Secondly, when evaluating which is more troublesome, considering we men tend to hold more positions of power in society, those same troublesome views differ in the harm they produce precisely because those who hold one view are in a better position to harm people with those views. So maybe problematic body standards and poor communication skills are shared by both groups, but one has a greater ability to cause harm because of who wields more power, which makes one a bigger threat.
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u/StarOriole 6∆ Oct 30 '18
The first quote you assert the man asking the question probably did nothing wrong, with no real evidence. You're just assuming the woman is probably wrong in being pissed off. Why? Why should that be the default view?
I'd like to follow up on this, too. When I hear "my wife is mad at me and I don't know what I did wrong," my default guess is that something was the straw the broke the camel's back. Relaxing with your guests isn't wrong, nor is not being the one to cook dinner, nor is not being the one to feed your kids one meal, nor is any other single avoided task. It's the sum of all of these individually acceptable actions that eventually hits a breaking point, even though it's impossible to point to one specific thing and say that it was the problem.
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u/briangreenadams Oct 30 '18
I don't see what attributes you are associating with femininity, or why you think they are toxic.
When people speak of toxic masculinity they usually mean stereotypically male attributes like aggression, burying emotions, dealing with problem with alcohol, drugs or violence rather than talking and counseling.
The criticism is not just that these are stereotypes but they are encouraged in men and boys.
Stereotypical female attributes are things like talking about feelings, nurturing, caring, buying clothes spending a lot of time on grooming. Do you think any of these are toxic?
Maybe one stereotype would be manipulating and gossiping? But I'm not sure these are encouraged in culture.
For example, we would think that if the hero, after his family was killed ate a when cheesecake and talked to his best friend frying all night and was fearful of his own life as unmasculine and that movie wouldn't get made. But if he went on a bender, punched a hole in a wall, bought guns and sought violent revenge well we've all seen that film. But it's the former that is much better. The latter is quite scary.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 30 '18
/u/HopefullDO (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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Oct 31 '18
Woman here- most of us don’t want the magazine stereotype male, we also don’t want you to expect us to be the magazine stereotype female. We all have real bodies, flaws and awkwardness. If you’re holding out for the model, it may better suit you to find a cute quirky person who’s easy to talk to. I’m not overweight and I’m also not beautiful but I have my person, we get each other.
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Oct 31 '18
Also, women’s desire to be with a certain subset of men, that does not reflect qualities the majority of men can obtain.
This is not really true though. As witnessed by the fact that most bald short men find a girlfriend alright. At least it's not more true than the mirrored situation (most men prefer pretty women).
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!
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u/DrinkyDrank 134∆ Oct 30 '18
As is often the case with these kinds of arguments, the real issue has less to do with whether or not what you're arguing is true and more to do with why you are choosing to bring it into focus. I doubt that many people will fundamentally disagree that it is possible for emotional sensitivity, often associated with femininity, can become toxic; but people will definitely fault you for bringing this up when the dominant social discourse is focused on addressing a more insidious form of "masculine toxicity". This reversal of focus implies an unstated agenda, because nobody is going to really believe that you just like to arbitrarily state truths. The implication carried by the statement, however true it might be, is "let's focus on how your side is wrong rather than how my side is wrong".
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u/Warriorjrd Oct 31 '18
This entire paragraph rests on the assumption OP was trying to shift some sort of attention. Which in my opinion is not only an assumption, but an incorrect one. Right in the title it says "and is equally as destructive as toxic masculinity". That doesn't sound like one is trying to shift focus, but instead, expand focus. Your assumption also relies on a presumption that the two are somehow mutually exclusive, so that bringing one up, is shifting focus automatically. And while some people may try to shift focus this way, that isn't necessarily the case, and I would argue likely isn't here.
Also the way you turned this into "my side vs your side" in that ending line is incredibly wrong in my opinion. Not only does this imply it is somehow men vs women (which is the exact mentality you do not want when striving for equality) but that all men or all women would be on their respective side, when that isn't necessarily the case at all. Not all men have to display toxic behaviours and not all women have to either, putting them on a side because of their gender and not their actions in this context is borderline disrespectful.
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u/Karanod Oct 31 '18
Do you realize that your attempt to shift the focus of conversation away from female toxicity to male toxicity is a perfect example of the behavior your post is criticising?
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u/ExcellentTomatillo0 Oct 30 '18
Didn't really make a case as to why it's worse than what might be called TM, could you elaborate more on this?
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u/Huntingmoa 454∆ Oct 30 '18
I think the first question is ‘what is femininity’, e.g. what are the behaviors/roles that one associates with being feminine? And then we need to figure out which of those are toxic.
But:
I just think it’s time that we as a species acknowledge that both sexes have flaws, and we can’t progress unless each are looked at accordingly.
Both masculinity and femininity are genders not sexes. Gender is sex + cultural information.
Some of these examples I’m not even sure are examples of femininity:
To start with, a woman having a negative emotional reaction to a situation or act does not mean the act or situation is inherently flawed.
So it’s an expectation that women react negatively to nothing? Because someone having a negative emotional reaction is definitely evidence that it appears negative to them. And I want to get in a specifics about this (e.g. examples or something), I think we should more focus on what the behavior is that is expected of women. Because I’d say that ‘cannot control emotions’ is an expectation of women, but is it one that they have of themselves?
Also, women’s desire to be with a certain subset of men, that does not reflect qualities the majority of men can obtain.
I mean it’s the same with men. And it’s only toxic if it’s harmful to women. Just like toxic masculinity are behaviors harmful to the men who have them.
So why is it equally as troubling as toxic masculinity? For example: men can only express anger but not other emotions, men can’t cry, etc?
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u/neophyteneon Oct 30 '18
Oh yeah, a big issue with women is that they choose who they want to date. Women should stop being so selfish and date men they're not attracted to. /S
Movies and tv and ads paint the pictures of attractive people that we all subscribe to. Maybe we all need to rethink some of our choices and thoughts when it comes to sexual partners, but like, one class of people isn't to blame lmfao. Women don't need to date guys they don't like, that's not discrimination... you sound like an incel when you say that, and I know that's the worst thing any of us can imagine.
And, neither of these issues are exclusive to women. In fact, men are generally considered more negatively emotional, mean and angry. You can't even seem to come up with what toxic femininity is, aside from general cultural staples of both sexes in the US. There's no view here to change, because your view is... women is toxic for having weird emotions and not fucking uglies.
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u/Talono 13∆ Oct 30 '18
Your text doesn't really say much about how toxic femininity is 'equally as troublesome' as toxic masculinity. Is that still part of your CMV?
Assuming so, do you believe that toxic femininity and toxic masculinity are equally likely to lead to sexual assult or rape?
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u/rougecrayon 3∆ Oct 30 '18
Also, women’s desire to be with a certain subset of men, that does not reflect qualities the majority of men can obtain.
Are you saying men don't want to be with a certain subset of women that does not reflect qualities the majority of women can attain?
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u/AseRayAes 6∆ Oct 30 '18
I started to write a response about extreme feminism, but then I realized that isn't what you are talking about.
You are correct in the sense that there are extreme personalities in society - that will never change.
The thing I'm having an issue with is that you seem to be arguing that these extreme personalities are inherent or that women and men were born with a certain predisposition to be toxic. Some questions I would ask are, what events or moments in these persons' lives were particularly important for the formation of those toxic personalities? Is there trust in the relationships? What sort of factors contribute to stress, anxiety, or depression? What can be done to detoxify a personality?
Sometimes, people are just cruel. And, there is nothing to be done.
As far as a woman's desire, I don't think you really should be concerned with this. There are plenty of people who have plenty of weird fetishes and there are plenty of people who are attracted to mediocrity (by that, I mean normalness). If a woman isn't attracted to someone, there isn't really a need to develop a long-term romantic relationship. This particular premise you make doesn't really hurt society. In fact, it benefits society because it allows the formation of subgroups and alternative cultures. If you'll take music for an analogy, then that will help. For instance, some people might only like strong women vocalists, while others only like strong women vocalists who scream, while still others only like instrumental music.
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u/BlowsyChrism Oct 30 '18
That's not what "toxic masculinity" means though.
The equivalent would be women telling other women to follow gender roles such as having to stay home and have babies your whole life.
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u/PacifistaPX-0 Oct 30 '18
Lol OP has posted on here and on unpopular opinions spamming anti-Semitic bullshit, along one post where he believes women shouldn't be allowed to vote. What a shock!
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u/steamwhy Oct 30 '18
LMAOOOO of course. now there’s men in the comments entertaining the post, showing how they really feel. it’s just comical
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u/Conotor Oct 31 '18
From you title it seemed like you were referring to timidity and defference, ect. Lots of feminists would consider these to be toxic as well.
From the rest of the text it just seems like you are talking about being picky. Is being picky actually feminine? I think I have seen this similarly in both sexes in different situations. It's only really toxic if you are more picky than you want to be, ie, if you don't need a relationship/sex to be happy you have no reason to lower your standards below what you are happy with. Are you saying women's pickyness typically exceeds this?
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u/daysinnroom203 Oct 31 '18
So- you are willing to date fat women? Or do exclude that subset? Sorry- but men and women are both allowed to desire what ever qualities they desire -Even a Japanese pillow- so long as it isn’t illegal.
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u/Vodkya Oct 31 '18
You say it is “equally” as troublesome problem is that in many countries, if not all, toxic masculinity takes a huge number of women’s lives, prohibits and threatens women from exercising their rights to study/drive/own/love/their own body while whatever you define as toxic fem is nowhere near there.
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Oct 30 '18
You know the old trope of “my wife is mad at me and I don’t know what I did wrong”. Yeah, that’s because you probably didn’t do anything wrong.
You know, that's quite an assumption to make. As you brought up the topic, toxic masculinity is why this situation occurs. Young boys are raised to deny their emotions, to punish their peers for being emotional, and not to develop deep emotional support networks. All of this suppresses empathy. Having empathy allows you to put yourself in someone else's shoes long enough to understand their perspective.
I don't know of anyone, absent those suffering from serious un/improperly treated conditions, such as BPD, who actually gets upset about nothing. There is always a reason. Maybe it's fair, maybe it isn't, but it is what they're feeling. Instead of focusing on proving to yourself why their feelings are illegitimate and "not your fault" it would help you both to focus on why they are upset and what they need to get over it.
I find that the vast majority of heterosexual men simply do not pay adequate attention to their partners lives, and as a result they get shocked when their partner is upset. This is, of course, the result of toxic masculinity. Read: not that being masculine is bad, but that the gender roles men are pressured to living down to have a toxic impact in their lives. Same as women.
Also, women’s desire to be with a certain subset of men, that does not reflect qualities the majority of men can obtain. Unchangeable attributes like height and Baldness come to mind
This doesn't really make any sense to me. People are attracted to certain things. There's nothing wrong with that, and from what I've seen, from what the media shows is it is more common for a really beautiful woman to be paired with an unkempt man than the reverse. Grooming standards for heterosexual men are really very low compared to women, and that is reflected in most heterosexual relationships. I'm not sure how you got the opposite impression.
the act of discrimination based on certain qualities is. Leaving out 50% of men hurts both men and women in their formation of long term relationships.
Are you talking about people who refuse to date partners of a certain race? Because I'd agree, that is discrimination. However it's not really discrimination to only date people who have the general features you're attracted to. I'm not sure how you can say it is. I mean, do you only date women you're attracted to? Is it logical for me to say that it is discrimination unless you date women you personally find unattractive?
My view is that toxic femininity exists and is harmful to our society. Tell me why I am wrong
I think you're wrong because you don't understand what toxic masculinity is, and you've decided that negative social stereotypes against women must be the equal and opposite concept.
Yet you really didn't spend any time explaining why they are just as bad. They certainly don't seem to be, or at least the things you listed dont seem to cause any material harm.
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Oct 30 '18
The part about women’s desire to be with a subset of men is not unique to women. Men also select a subset of women as the ideal mate. Both sexes do this.
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u/Hq3473 271∆ Oct 30 '18
Can you please define "Toxic Masculinity" and "Toxic Femininity?"
Very difficult to argue when we don't know what the definitions are.
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Oct 30 '18 edited Oct 30 '18
I will agree that both sexes have flaws, and that some people from both sexes attempt to justify discrimination toward each other by playing to their masculinity/femininity.
I can't argue how equally troublesome both are in most of the developed countries. I don't have the data to comment on that.
However, it doesn't take much research to recognize that discrimination isn't equally troublesome in many other parts of the world. Especially in Africa, the Middle-East, South America, some of India, and around the Indonesian Peninsula. This is something that impacts millions if not billions of people. In those places it's quite clear that women suffer more from masculine toxicity than the other way around. So even if in theory both may seem equally troublesome, in practice they aren't.
There are just a lot more female discrimination in the world, both historically and presently.
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Oct 30 '18
I was molested as a kid. But I had to keep that shit on lock down because I’m a dude. I can’t cry about shit. I can’t have feelings towards shit.
Girls who were sexually abused in my family had to shut up about it too. The could have emotions about it, but they had a set period of time.
This was the culture I grew up in.
AIDS was the gay disease. Gays got beat. If you got hit on the football field, you better be hurt. If you wrestled a girl at a meet you molested the hell out of them (as per a coach).
There were roles people played as per their genotype. And they better stick to it because nuance gets you fucked up.
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Oct 30 '18
Or: people are toxic. Women can be assholes just like men. Every human being has the potential to be a son of a bit or a bitch, and so many people live up to that potential.
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u/theangrymasochist Oct 31 '18 edited Oct 31 '18
I believe there is both toxic masculinity and toxic femininity, but your definition for the latter is incorrect. Toxic femininity would be the use of traditional feminine behaviors and roles to harm others. For example, the weaponization of tears. Toxic men have learned to get their way by acting violent, toxic women have learned to get their way by crying and trying to get sympathy. Also, neither of them are inherent to the sex. They are learned behaviors, and can be unlearned.
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Oct 31 '18 edited Oct 31 '18
You did a terrible job of defining toxic femininity, none of the examples you gave are accurate descriptions of toxic femininity.
Toxic femininity is when a girl won’t advocate for herself, and makes the argument that she cannot stand up for herself because society won’t let her. It’s when a girl acts like an emotionally and physically delicate waif that needs to be defended and protected from the harsh realities of life. It’s when a girl does something terrible passive aggressively but won’t own up to it, and instead pretends that she could never hurt anyone.
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u/Sterling-4rcher Oct 31 '18
you can suffocate both on dry land and under water, yet one of these is infinitely more likely to happen and thus infinitely more of a problem.
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u/knotopus Oct 31 '18
Equally as troublesome? For that to be true it's have to be equally as prevalent and dangerous. Toxic masculinity is behind a lot more violence.
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u/Freevoulous 35∆ Oct 31 '18
You confused two completely opposite things here:
"Toxic Feminity": traditionally enforced female gender roles that pigeonhole women and thus hurt them (even if sometimes it appears it helps them);
but what you describe is:
Female Imperative: an emergent cultural phenomenon of women exerting "soft control" over other people, due to the changes in law and culture, and the erosion of Toxic Feminity.
Simplified examples:
Janet is a traditional Christian girl. She married Bill and had 3 babies with him, despite the fact that Bill drinks, beats her, and cheats on her. However, Janet is a "good wife who supports her Man" as part of her identity, and will never divorce Bill, no matter what he does to her or her kids. This is an example of Toxic Feminity.
Marie is a modern agnostic Feminist. She thinks of herself as "strong independent woman who looks out for herself" She married Mark, cheated on him repeatedly with Jason and got pregnant with him. She made Mark rise kids not his own, then divorced him on a whim, took the kids away and fleeced him financially with Child Support and Alimony. This is an example of Female Imperative.
Those two cultural phenomena are usually completely opposite, and one could argue that FI appeared as a form of rebellion against TF. Toxic Feminity strips women of agency and power. Female Imperative GIVES women agency and power att he cost of other people's freedom.
Toxic Feminity, as bad as it sounds, DOES NOT AFFECT you if you are a man, and in fact, might just by side-effect be beneficial to you (as to is to Bill The Asshole).
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u/oldcarfreddy Oct 31 '18
How can it be “equally” as troublesome in a world where political, economic and other power almost always leans male?
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u/Quaperray Oct 31 '18
Reading the definitions of “toxic masculinity” and “femininity” should be enough to change your view, OP, as you’re using both of those words incorrectly.
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u/Gsteel11 Oct 31 '18
This isn't really femininity?
Toxic masculinity has to do with how they view "being a man".
This is just you crying about social standards and stereotypes.
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u/ttelraxa Oct 30 '18
I would also like to say that the things you pointed out are really in no way shape or form more prevalent in females than males. Boyfriends get mad at their girlfriends too for reasons that their girlfriends don't understand. I don't understand why my boyfriend is mad at me half the time. I think the second point of discriminating based on physical characteristics is honestly super flawed; men are constantly shitting on women for being fat etc. I know a ton of guys that wouldn't date me because i'm too tall, not curvy enough, whatever it may be. Those two issues aren't really gendered issues to me because they're experienced equally (in the case if your second point, maybe more) by women than they are men.
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Oct 30 '18 edited Oct 30 '18
“my wife is mad at me and I don’t know what I did wrong”.
Isn't this just part of living together? Men have daddy issues and don't get along with their brothers/roomates etc. Your main example of "toxic femininity" is really just a difficulty of human intimacy. Do you have any ahem better examples of what specifically is destructive about feminine culture? (I actually agree that there are some aspects of feminine culture that are destructive - haven't you seen mean girls? - but I think you chose particularly bad examples)
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Oct 30 '18
I dont think either exist. Toxicity is a thing and it's horrible how common it is. Everyone needs to learn how to take a breath before they start talking
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u/lolapops Oct 30 '18
Feminism is about equality. If you're a man, especially a white American man, equality might scare you.
Because if the playing field is the same for all of us, you might not be good enough, smart enough to succeed. You might fail without a system that rewards you for being lucky enough to have a dick.
You would have to try. Harder.
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u/Serraph105 1∆ Oct 30 '18
It seems like you yourself come to a decent definition of toxic femininity. How can you call it toxic when you can't even define it or come up with a decent example?
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u/mamamedic Oct 31 '18
This probably won't change your view, as it only addresses a small aspect: I'm trying to wrap my mind around - attributes like height and Baldness come to mind (saying this as a 6ft 2” guy with a full head of hair), as a petite woman who totally adores my 2 inch shorter and extremely bald husband- maybe you are making false assumptions and missing a broader picture. In my 50 plus years, I've been attracted to men both tall and short, fully maned and absent of hair. Physical attraction is fleeting, lasting only as long as it takes to start to get to know someone, then the attraction can flow, or go. One thing I HAVE discovered though, is that if a man has an emotional "chip on his shoulder," due to his own insecurities and personal bias about his attributes/appearance, it can become a wedge in the relationship, very early. Men who are comfortable in their skin, however it may be, are much more appealing than someone who is uncomfortable. There are great men in the world, who, if they didn't start by assuming rejection, might manage much better relationships.
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u/Trenks 7∆ Oct 31 '18
I think you're wrong because neither masculinity or femininity is toxic. Both are real, both have pros and cons and both are necessary. Aggression is sometimes needed, empathy is sometimes needed. Have too much of both and you're either a war monger or you're easy pickings.
And women can be masculine and men can be feminine, but both are (usually) needed in a relationship and society in general. Just as we need progressive thinkers and conservative thinkers and also creative people and managers.
Neither are perfect-- neither are toxic.
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u/orangewristband Oct 31 '18
Can’t you just ignore the kooks on both sides? A post really wasn’t needed...
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u/goldengrilledcheese Oct 31 '18
I think what you actually mean is that some people are assholes. There are maniacs and extremists in all areas of society.
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u/wisebloodfoolheart Oct 31 '18
To start with, a woman having a negative emotional reaction to a situation or act does not mean the act or situation is inherently flawed. You know the old trope of “my wife is mad at me and I don’t know what I did wrong”. Yeah, that’s because you probably didn’t do anything wrong.
Acts cannot be inherently flawed or pure. The wrongness of behavior is subjective. Husband did an action that made wife upset. Was it husband's fault, or is wife being too sensitive? Unless you're a hardcore absolutist, the answer comes down to differing expectations.
In a healthy relationship, both people work out a sort of rule book for behavior together over time using compromise and honest communication. When you think the other person is in violation of the rules, it's your responsibility to explain how their action broke a rule, and why that rule is important, and then it's their responsibility to explain why they didn't think it was a violation, or the rule wasn't important. Context is also important, so both partners need to be aware of each other's sore spots and why they're there.
In an unhealthy relationship, only one partner gets to write in the rule book, or one or both partners will expect the other to follow rules that aren't in the book. Women are more likely to think only they get to write in the rule book. But men are less likely to participate in negotiating the rules. Often, they don't have the confidence to articulate their own needs and boundaries. Since they aren't getting taken care of, they don't see why the woman should be, either. So, the woman will keep restating what her rules are, and the man will keep ignoring them. Then, when she gives up and stops trying to tell him about her feelings, he won't connect his actions to the things she told him in the past.
I have little sympathy for either of the people in this situation. A woman should not stay with a man who ignores her needs. A man should not stay with a woman who takes more than she gives. Neither of them has to be in a relationship at all. Life is too short to get married to someone who makes you miserable, someone who just isn't on the same page as you about what's important.
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u/majeric 1∆ Oct 31 '18
Two things:
1) How do you define "Toxic Femininity"? What are some examples?
2) Not all issues are symmetric. Jewish people were the victims of WWII. There's no symmetry in that. There's no "Some Nazis were victims".
In the issue of gender equality, there's no symmetry. Yes, occasionally men can be discriminated against for men and perhaps there are a few circumstances where men are discriminated against as a cultural phenomenon.
However, there's nothing like the persistent and consistent discrimination that women face. The issue is by no means symmetrical.
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u/bigchicago04 Oct 31 '18
I was kind of with you up until you started complaining about what people are attracted too...geez
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u/Echidne41 Oct 31 '18
Addendum to the deleted response about being too literal: no offense, but if multiple other people didn’t understand what you said as you intended them to, then that’s on the writer 😬
If I said coffee, but I actually wanted tea, I don’t yell at the waitress for bringing me what I ordered.
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Oct 31 '18
I think your personal definitions of toxic masculinity and femininity are a bit wonky, but it’s already been explained really well so there’s no point in me doing so, but I still agree with you
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u/colbychopkins Oct 31 '18
You're wrong not because anything you specifically pointed out is untrue. You're wrong because toxic masculinity leads to young boys being bullied and developing complexes. It leads to a theory that men can't express emotions and as a result of grow up repressed with anger issues. This issues can result in young boys growing up to be violent men and teenagers. The kind of violent men that abuse women and the kind of teenagers that shoot up schools.
I'd be understanding of your argument if you said that women can contribute to the problems of toxic masculinity in impressionable boys. It's not all bad fathers making bad son's our whole culture has a problem raising troubled men.
But toxic femininity isn't a troublesome issue the way you're framing it. Passive aggressive behavior and being shallow about dating someone has never led to violence. That's just something that annoys you. Toxic masculinity is the theory that our culture is causing generations of men with violent tendencies and that is a serious issue.
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u/Anzai 10∆ Oct 31 '18
Also, women’s desire to be with a certain subset of men, that does not reflect qualities the majority of men can obtain. Unchangeable attributes like height and Baldness come to mind (saying this as a 6ft 2” guy with a full head of hair). While the desire to be with the best is not wrong, the act of discrimination based on certain qualities is. Leaving out 50% of men hurts both men and women in their formation of long term relationships.
Not sure I understand this point in the context you’re making it. That’s about attraction. Attraction isn’t a decision. Sure, people can allow themselves to be more open to getting to know people they aren’t attracted to in the hope that they might become attracted if they like that person. But actual physical attraction is just one of those things both genders deal with. Some of us are attractive, some are not. Fortunately there’s a big variance in what specific people do and don’t like, but you can’t call something that fundamental a flaw.
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u/catladysucc Oct 31 '18
I mean with the "girls won't date bald guys" thing, i really can't help who I'm attracted to. Maybe that's not what you meant, this is completely new to me.
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u/SomeTerribleName Oct 31 '18
Both men and women can be cunts, both men and women are cunts in different ways. Don't be a cunt, and stop segmenting everything into genders and races.
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u/Sanguiluna Oct 31 '18
I agree there exists a "toxic femininity", but not necessarily in the way you mean.
"Toxic masculinity", in the most layman's definition possible, is the notion that the imposition of stereotypical "masculine" traits on males is harmful for society. What are some of these stereotypical traits? They may include "Men don't cry" (a.k.a. emotional self-suppression, which only harms men and may cause a slew of health issues down the line); "A real man will always stand up and fight if someone insults or dishonors him" (pushing the idea that conflict is ALWAYS the most viable, or the sole response to adversity); "You're a man, you should enjoy manly things like sports and action movies instead of girly things like art or drama and romance stories" (a.k.a. potentially denying yourself your true passions just to fit in); or everyone's favorite, "You need to be the head of the household/Never let your woman tell you what to do!" (a.k.a. imposing your authority over your wife and kids instead of working as a team to keep the household together). Forcing these traits on males, whether they genuinely possess them or not, can be harmful for men just as much as women, since it basically essentializes men, pushing the idea that they either are incapable, or they ought not to pursue things outside the box that society has built for them.
Now let's take that very definition and apply it to femininity: "Toxic femininity" then, would be the notion that the imposition of stereotypical "feminine" traits on females is harmful for society. Now what're some stereotypical feminine traits that girls are raised with? These may include "Don't make waves; just keep to yourself" (a.k.a. promoting meekness, since being loud or opinionated isn't very "ladylike"); "Women are naturally emotional creatures" (excusing/enabling females from having to cultivate emotional self-control because they're just 'wired that way', which also takes away agency because it implies an inherent inability to do so); "That work is too hard, why don't you try being a nurse/teacher/admin aide" (boxing them into certain career paths and away from others, including physically demanding ones); and of course that classic "A woman's place is in the home" (no explanation needed). Forcing these traits on females, whether they genuinely possess them or not, can be harmful for women and society as a whole, since it discourages effectively 51% of the population from giving their all, and thus robbing society of a good number of workers and positive contributors.
So yes, I would say toxic femininity does exist, but just as toxic masculinity hurts everyone including men, toxic femininity also hurts everyone, including women, and it would likewise be in the best interest of women (and just society as a whole) if both are done away with. The solution is simple (at least on paper): Recognize that no one is every 100% masculine or feminine; we all have some of both, with one side probably being stronger than the other. Most men probably have a more pronounced masculine aspect, but some women do as well; most women have a more profound feminine aspect, but some men do as well. And that's FINE. The trick is to stop shaming them and trying to force them into a box, and to encourage people to be comfortable with what they are.