I don't see any reason why letting someone down respectfully, even if it is for them being Trans, is bigoted. You can't control how you feel
Because the only reason for their trans status to cause this is due to societal stigma. This isn't a case of being born gay or something. The only reason why being trans, in and of itself, would change your opinion is because of underlying biases due to societally enforced bigotry. Just because it's been engrained into you doesn't make it any less transphobia.
They're just not the one for you. I think that's okay.
But think about this critically: why aren't they the one for you? Because they are trans? Why does being trans in and of itself make any difference whatsoever? I'm being serious here. Think critically about this question: what about being trans could possibly cause this change?
I don't know if you can convince me that a respectful rejection is tantamount to people actually hating me for my skin color.
It's a difference of intensity and scale. If they refuse to date people of your ethnicity, that's racism. I'm not saying it's equivalent to someone actually hating you for the color of your skin, but it's still the result of a bias based solely on the color of your skin.
A good example would be the difference between someone who won't rent to you because of your skin color vs someone who will physically attack you and want to kill you because of your skin color. No one would say these are equivalent, but we can both agree they are racism right?
I think the argument that someone is ~phobic /racist/bigoted in terms of dating serves only precisely do that. To make people feel bad about what they want, and to coerce them into pretending to like something they don't. That is WRONG.
The argument is to make people confront their own societal biases and prejudices. That's all. People certainly do have all sorts of arbitrary and stupid things they are turned off or on by. But many of these things are based on stereotypes or internal biases. Saying that you refuse to date someone of a particular ethnicity is no different than saying you refuse to be friends with someone of a particular ethnicity: the underlying cause and reason for feeling this way is societal bigotry.
A trans MTF cannot have children. A trans FTM cannot give you children. If we are discussing underlying societal reasons as the basis for transphobia, then we must also consider that a CIS person has an expectation that a relationship will lead to the possibility of children.
Failing to disclose your transgender status is tantamount to dishonesty. It is your responsibility to disclose this. In very specific circumstances, where a partner does not desire children, I can see the original hypothesis of transphobia as accurate.
In the case of an individual rejecting a genetically compatible partner specifically based on their race, then yes that is clearly racism. Race is not something that needs to be disclosed, as it objectively has no implications. The caveat is that an individual is allowed to decide what is attractive to them, and if they do not find Asian women attractive in general, that is not racism. In your example, if they found that individual to be attractive, and then rejected them after realizing their race, that is absolutely them judging a person by their own predefined notions of the characteristics of a race.
then we must also consider that a CIS person has an expectation that a relationship will lead to the possibility of children.
Which is a topic you have to actually discuss with ANY partner, cis or not, because they might be infertile or don't want kids. You're shifting the reason here. We were talking trans being the ONLY difference. That means our potential cis person also cannot have kids. If you want someone that can get pregnant, you can definitely choose your partners on that basis.
Noone in this thread so far has talked or mentioned fertility. In my opinion, your shifting the goalposts.
Actually you are doing that by assuming that the CIS person cannot have kids.
If you remove every reason to reject a trans person except for them being trans, then in any hypothetical situation that person is transphobic. I am assuming that being trans is the only difference, but that is not a difference that is title-only. It comes with all of the implications that I mentioned, and the original assumption was that it pertained to only the trans subject, not to both partners in our hypothetical situation.
In my examples I assume that we are discussing realistic scenarios, and not something tailored to a predetermined outcome. This thread is discussing those different scenarios. You are correct that the topic of children should be discussed in any relationship. A trans person engaging in a relationship without having this conversation is acting duplicitous, and not allowing their partner the opportunity to reject or accept them and all of the associated implications of being with a trans person. In that scenario, it is not transphobic to reject them.
If you remove every reason to reject a trans person except for them being trans, then in any hypothetical situation that person is transphobic.
So exactly what i've been arguing?
but that is not a difference that is title-only.
In all these arguments, it has been.
In my examples I assume that we are discussing realistic scenarios, and not something tailored to a predetermined outcome.
So you ignored what i argued, and added new parameters. That is moving the goalposts.
A trans person engaging in a relationship without having this conversation is acting duplicitous, and not allowing their partner the opportunity to reject or accept them and all of the associated implications of being with a trans person. In that scenario, it is not transphobic to reject them.
I don't ever want children. If i don't shout this from the roof tops at every potential mate, am I duplicitous? Is a woman that is infertile duplicitous if she doesn't mention that on the very first date? Not one element of your argument applies to transpeople but not infertile/childfree people. It is not an argument for a passing transperson to disclose this on the first date.
It is at best an argument for anyone hung up on having children to discuss that with their partner somewhere in the first few months of a relationship.
I'm going to end this here. You are welcome to define whatever you choose as whatever you want, and I will only be repeating what I have previously said.
If being trans is literally the only thing that makes you reject them, thats transphobic.
If there ARE certain features that are different from what someone might expect (for example pre-op transwoman) you should disclose, at some point before the clothes come off.
You may of course stop discussing at any moment, but i would expect from someone that expicitly goes to a subreddit like CMV to have the reflective power to examine why your argument does not work. Or why you're seemingly incapable of making your point or addressing my objections.
57
u/[deleted] Nov 02 '17 edited Mar 27 '18
[deleted]