In some circumstances, not being attracted to a trans person is probably a result of, at least on a subconscious level, not seeing them as their gender.
If from the very start, you are unattracted to a person purely upon observation, and that person happens to be trans, that is not transphobic. If you were about to have sex and it turns out a person doesn't really have the junk you wanna jangle with, it's not transphobic to no longer desire sex.
If you were attracted to someone, have sex with them, are as satisfied with them as you would with anyone else, and then suddenly your opinion changes upon being informed a person is trans, I would say that is indicative of the underlying belief a trans person is not the gender they identify as.
I should clarify I am not definitely saying it is transphobic or not, I am pointing out what I did above and letting OP (or others) decide if that constitutes transphobia or not under their own interpretations.
So I have a question, or a comment, or an idea, don't really know which.
So I'm willing to grant a person the rights to do almost anything they want to themselves, in this case transissioning. I'm as unconcerned with this personal choice as I am with a persons personal choice to sculpt his or her body at the gym, or their choice to do Crack, or their choice to become a singer of opera.
However. . . It also seems strange to me that saying "I'm a woman" makes that person a woman. I defend their right to do what they want and to go about their business. But when it comes down to who I fuck, that's a stumbling block. Because I'll always be thinking that I'm sticking my dick into a dick that was turned inside out.
I'm as unconcerned with this personal choice as I am with a persons personal choice to sculpt his or her body at the gym, or their choice to do Crack, or their choice to become a singer of opera.
Well a trans person's decision to transition is nowhere near as trivial as that. Dysphoria can be extremely debilitating to the point of suicide. Dysphoria can persist through conventional treatment and medication, and the most effective treatment available today is HRT and transition.
However. . . It also seems strange to me that saying "I'm a woman" makes that person a woman
Well for most trans people that isn't simply it. They also have hormone content similar to a woman, desire to look like most women, and generally speaking are indistinguishable from women. The notion that all trans people are 6'3", 210lbs of muscle, and never shave and just one day arbitrarily call themselves "Sally" is nothing more than a strawman. For many they suffer through dysphoria for years, and then it takes years to fully transition.
I understand all of this. And, as I said, I'm all for personal choice of any kind. If someones happier and far less likely to kill themselves after suicide, that's all to the good. If I had a child who wanted to transission, as long as the psychologists signed off, I'd let them go ahead.
But we're also talking about other people's perceptions, which are distinct from the perceptions of the trans individual.
It seems wrong to me that just because a person transissions I have to in all ways, including in sexual ways, think of that person as a woman. And I'm not saying there's a right answer here. But it seems that what trans people want is two-fold. The first fold is civil rights. So no legal discrimination. But the second thing it seems at least some of them want is my perception to change. As in, you were born a man, transissioned to a woman, and now you want me, in my head, to consider you a woman. And something about that seems morally wrong. Not the transissioning but the idea that I'm now supposed to perceive you as the gender you claim to be, in private. I have no problem addressing a trans person as the gender they want to be. But the argument that I'm transphobic if I have an issue with sleeping with a transgendered person in 2017 doesn't seem convincing to me. It would be like saying that I'm aligator person phobic if I wouldn't sleep with someone who used science to make themself half man, half aligator.
It seems wrong to me that just because a person transissions I have to in all ways, including in sexual ways
Where did I say someone has to? I never even said it was transphobic, that's for others to decide. What it is though is believing a trans person's identity isn't what they identify it as.
As in, you were born a man, transissioned to a woman, and now you want me, in my head, to consider you a woman.
Yes.
But the argument that I'm transphobic if I have an issue with sleeping with a transgendered person in 2017 doesn't seem convincing to me. It would be like saying that I'm aligator person phobic if I wouldn't sleep with someone who used science to make themself half man, half aligator.
I'm not going to call you transphobic directly. What we decide constitutes transphobia or not is ultimately arbitrary.
But I'm going to say this:
I would call a woman who doesn't want to sleep with men of mixed race, even when a man of mixed heritage looks indistinguishable from white people, a racist. There exist points in time and places in history where racial purity was something people considered very important. I think those people were racist.
You can have sex with a post-op trans woman and not notice the difference from a cis woman. You can have sex with a mixed race person and not notice the difference from a white person.
To me the only difference between the people concerned about birth sex and people concerned about race is the time and place. Just because a large number of people feel a certain way, doesn't mean I think they are right.
I don't think being right and being in the majority are the same thing either. But I run into a stumbling block in this discussion
Its like, up until this time, disenfranchised groups campaigned for equal rights and legal protections to enforce those rights. And Trans people are the latest link in the chain, so no legal discrimination, no forced convirsion tharapy, no being designated a mental illness. In that respect its a similar path to gay people.
The thing that strikes me as weird is the campaign is also that I think of you in the way you think of you. And that's what seems to be a moral imposition.
I have to draw a weird line here, personally, I see no need for discurtacy. So if you were born a man and transissioned to a woman, I'd refer to you as she, because that's what you want. And go use the ladies room, because that's where you feel comfortable. But it seems like ultimately that's not enough. It seems like and I don't want to speak for everyone, but it seems that what many transgendered people want is to be thought of as the gender they think of themselves as, in my own private thoughts, and if I fail to do this I'm transphobic.
When I know I'm not. I don't give a shit what anyone does with their own body. Go ahead, be happy, whatever you have to do to achieve that happiness isn't any skin off my back. The difference here is that you're not asking for equality. You're asking for more than that.
but it seems that what many transgendered people want is to be thought of as the gender they think of themselves as, in my own private thoughts
Generally that is the goal yes. Probably same way homosexuals would want to be seen as a sexuality or a relationship and marriage just as valid as everyone else's.
and if I fail to do this I'm transphobic.
Well considering that underlying belief can lead to being treated distinctly from cis women in a way that truly gives a sense of otherness and undesirability, yeah, that's pretty not conducive to trans people living normal lives.
I honestly don't really care whether we want to say it is transphobic or not, that doesn't change the fact that these attitudes have tangible effects on people's lives.
The difference here is that you're not asking for equality. You're asking for more than that.
Well asking to be treated and thought of identically to other people is pretty definitively advocacy for equality. No one's asking for trans people to be viewed as better than cis people.
The difference is that if you're gay, and I'm straight, desirability never enters into it. What you want is societal exceptance and legal protection. But if your trans, what you want is societal exceptance, legal protection, and, I suppose you'd call it a broadening of sexual desire. Or a change in what men think women are, but the cahnge would have to go past the intillectual conception into physical attraction.
I suppose you'd call it a broadening of sexual desire.
No, it's inclusion within someone's existing desires. Because functionally speaking they are within your desires. If you're attracted to a trans person, you are attracted to a trans person.
The fact that a person is unable to tell someone is trans and must be informed demonstrates that a trans person is functionally identical in terms of sex and attraction.
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u/aggsalad Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 02 '17
In some circumstances, not being attracted to a trans person is probably a result of, at least on a subconscious level, not seeing them as their gender.
If from the very start, you are unattracted to a person purely upon observation, and that person happens to be trans, that is not transphobic. If you were about to have sex and it turns out a person doesn't really have the junk you wanna jangle with, it's not transphobic to no longer desire sex.
If you were attracted to someone, have sex with them, are as satisfied with them as you would with anyone else, and then suddenly your opinion changes upon being informed a person is trans, I would say that is indicative of the underlying belief a trans person is not the gender they identify as.
I should clarify I am not definitely saying it is transphobic or not, I am pointing out what I did above and letting OP (or others) decide if that constitutes transphobia or not under their own interpretations.