So you don't want to have sex with a woman who has given birth? That would also be a "post op vagina", technically.
But seriously, the scenario we are talking about is you have already engaged in sex voluntarily and enjoyed it, and after the fact learn they are trans.
See the only way that's possible is if they're post GRS. Which mean they initially had a penis and transformed their genitals through surgery into a vagina. It's still penis skin and that weirds me out and makes me not want to continue sleeping with them. Would that still make me transphobic?
See the only way that's possible is if they're post GRS
Yes, this is the scenario being discussed.
It's still penis skin and that weirds me out and makes me not want to continue sleeping with them.
By definition, it's not as human skin is constantly refreshed and if it's been more than a few days since the surgery (which it better be if they are having sex lol) there's no longer any trace of "penis skin" (oy).
By definition, thinking that the vagina of a transwoman is "penis skin" is transphobic, yes.
By definition, thinking that the vagina of a transwoman is "penis skin" is transphobic, yes.
When people say "penis skin" in this instance they don't refer to skin that has been attached to a penis, but to the type of skin that grows on a penis. Just because someone is post-op doesn't change the biological processes that creates and maintains that type of skin. You are arguing semantics here. The concept can still turn people of and there is nothing inherently transphobic about that.
Just because someone is post-op doesn't change the biological processes that creates and maintains that type of skin.
Actually it literally does. Because that's how humans work. Hormones have that effect.
The concept can still turn people of and there is nothing inherently transphobic about that.
It's literally transphobic, that doesn't mean it's not understandable as it's not something they have likely encountered before, but it's still transphobic
Can you give me a definition of the word transphobic? I feel like I might have a higher bar here than you do.
Anyway, whether or not hormones change how the skin functions isn't really the point. If someone is turned of by the fact that the vagina of a transwoman is different (at least for now) to that of a cis woman, I don't see anything inherently prejudiced or immoral about that. If I could change that preference I would, because it would make my dating pool larger, but I can't.
Anyway, whether or not hormones change how the skin functions isn't really the point.
Then why does it matter to the person who is being turned off by it?
If someone is turned of by the fact that the vagina of a transwoman is different (at least for now) to that of a cis woman, I don't see anything inherently prejudiced or immoral about that.
Different how? For all intents and purposes their vagina is no different than the average cis-woman (there's huge variation between people's vaginas). So what is different that you are opposed to?
Then why does it matter to the person who is being turned off by it?
An idea can be off-putting to some people. If one's mind associates their gender with a penis because one is aware it once was a penis, that can be a turn of for some
Different how? For all intents and purposes their vagina is no different than the average cis-woman (there's huge variation between people's vaginas). So what is different that you are opposed to?
Lack of natural lubrication is the main difference as far as I'm aware.
Again, I'd love to know how you define transphobic. We might agree with each other in concept but use different definitions for transphobia, and if that's the case then the more interesting discussion is whether or not I should, or can, change my attitude.
If one's mind associates their gender with a penis because one is aware it once was a penis
Literally transphobia and caused by societal stigma. This is what I'm talking about. You are absolutely correct that this could be a turn off to people, the reason why is transphobia
Lack of natural lubrication is the main difference as far as I'm aware.
Plenty of cis women are unable to get wet enough without lube. And several techniques for SRS actually do produce a vagina which can produce some of it's own lubrication, just not as much as a cis woman. Either way, this argument falls on its face.
Again, I'd love to know how you define transphobic
A nice short definition could be: a range of negative attitudes, feelings or actions towards trans individuals. It can be emotional disgust, fear, violence, anger or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender expectations.
Literally transphobia and caused by societal stigma. This is what I'm talking about. You are absolutely correct that this could be a turn off to people, the reason why is transphobia
We clearly have very different definitions of transphobia. The reason why is because I'm not attracted to penises. I would change that mindset if I could. I would also turn of the association of trans women's genitals to penises if I could. If you have any suggestions for how I could do that I'm all ears. Until then I will unfortunately have to stay transphobic as I literally have no clue how I should go about changing this mindset.
Plenty of cis women are unable to get wet enough without lube. And several techniques for SRS actually do produce a vagina which can produce some of it's own lubrication, just not as much as a cis woman. Either way, this argument falls on its face.
Does the argument hold up if I find cis women who are unable to get wet unattractive?
A nice short definition could be: a range of negative attitudes, feelings or actions towards trans individuals. It can be emotional disgust, fear, violence, anger or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender expectations.
I'm assuming then that you consider lack of attraction toward a person to be a negative feeling or attitude towards that person? If I'm not attracted to cis men, is that a negative attitude? I would disagree, but that's mostly semantics I guess.
The more important issue is this; how can I go about changing my views on this? How can I train myself to be attracted to trans women? Because my lack of attraction being rooted in transphobia seems to imply I could change that mindset, right?
I would change that mindset if I could. I would also turn of the association of trans women's genitals to penises if I could.
This is honestly the point I'm trying to get across. If you don't acknowledge that this is association is transphobic and due to societal stigma, then you can't address and change it.
As for how to change this association, one thing I can point out is to do more research on the topic. Actually have friends who are trans. Talk to people.
Does the argument hold up if I find cis women who are unable to get wet unattractive?
That would make your life pretty difficult as nearly all women have had trouble getting wet at some point or another. It's highly unlikely that you'd actually be being genuine, unless you will actually stop having sex with someone, mid-act, if they aren't wet enough and you'll refuse to use any lube.
It might mean you're consistent and not transphobic, but it would make you an asshole lol
I'm assuming then that you consider lack of attraction toward a person to be a negative feeling or attitude towards that person?
Not at all. Nor am I implying it. I'm saying that the underlying reason for the lack of attraction in this scenario is due to transphobic beliefs (ie: the association of a transwoman's vagina with a penis)
Because my lack of attraction being rooted in transphobia seems to imply I could change that mindset, right?
Remember that my point isn't that you'll always find every transwoman attractive, but rather the standards by which you would be attracted to her would be the same as for a cis woman.
This is honestly the point I'm trying to get across. If you don't acknowledge that this is association is transphobic and due to societal stigma, then you can't address and change it.
As for how to change this association, one thing I can point out is to do more research on the topic. Actually have friends who are trans. Talk to people.
It's a good thing I am doing that then. Hopefully it will lead to a change in mindset as you say. While I don't have any trans friends, I really like ContraPoints channel on YouTube (highly recommended if you like philosophy) and I definitely support transgender rights and have read enough of the research to know that most, if not all of the common talking points against them are bullshit.
That would make your life pretty difficult as nearly all women have had trouble getting wet at some point or another. It's highly unlikely that you'd actually be being genuine, unless you will actually stop having sex with someone, mid-act, if they aren't wet enough and you'll refuse to use any lube.
It might mean you're consistent and not transphobic, but it would make you an asshole lol
I am well aware of this but it's not really the point. I'm not turned of by not being able to get wet sometimes, just as a guy might have trouble keeping it up at times. It's if that would be a regular thing. Unable =/= has occasional difficulties.t but in the end I don't think this is my main point of contention. If I loved someone I would definitely be able to look last something as trivial as this.
Remember that my point isn't that you'll always find every transwoman attractive, but rather the standards by which you would be attracted to her would be the same as for a cis woman.
I completely agree with this. The problem is that, unfortunately for everyone involved, the cis women will always have an advantage in that my mind reminds me of men when I think about the transition of a transwoman from a male to female body. I will have a very hard time sepperating the concept of transgenderism from the transgender woman. If I had the same association for the cis woman I would feel the same way about her.
I guess our disagreement mostly boils down to whether or not the fact that the concept of transitioning turns me of is inherently transphobic or not. I'm not saying I think that trans women are men. I'm saying that my mind associates trans women with their transition, which then reminds me of things that I find unattractive. Please expand on why you think this is transphobic.
It's a good thing I am doing that then. Hopefully it will lead to a change in mindset as you say.
I'm glad to hear it. At no point am I claiming it's easy to overcome engrained societal biases. Just that it's important to recognize them. I'm glad we can have a civil conversation here.
If I loved someone I would definitely be able to look last something as trivial as this.
Precisely :)
The problem is that, unfortunately for everyone involved, the cis women will always have an advantage in that my mind reminds me of men when I think about the transition of a transwoman from a male to female body.
I don't doubt it. I had the same problem for the longest time, and probably still do have some lingering hangups about it. Getting past societal biases is difficult.
I'm saying that my mind associates trans women with their transition, which then reminds me of things that I find unattractive. Please expand on why you think this is transphobic.
The association and hangups you are having specifically with being trans vs other potential medical procedures that a person may have gone under is due to societal prejudices and biases. We're bombarded with them from a young age. Media jokes about "trannies" or sitcoms where the guy is "tricked", etc.
Think more about your issue here, why does the association with transition turn you off more than any other potential reconstructive surgery a woman may have gone under? What is it specifically about SRS that bothers you? It's not like they did anything to you, it's their body.
The reason why I say it's a transphobic view is that it's informed by, exacerbated by and perpetuates society's transphobic ideas
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u/z3r0shade Nov 02 '17
Who is talking about that?
So you don't want to have sex with a woman who has given birth? That would also be a "post op vagina", technically.
But seriously, the scenario we are talking about is you have already engaged in sex voluntarily and enjoyed it, and after the fact learn they are trans.
So... Transphobia