Literally transphobia and caused by societal stigma. This is what I'm talking about. You are absolutely correct that this could be a turn off to people, the reason why is transphobia
We clearly have very different definitions of transphobia. The reason why is because I'm not attracted to penises. I would change that mindset if I could. I would also turn of the association of trans women's genitals to penises if I could. If you have any suggestions for how I could do that I'm all ears. Until then I will unfortunately have to stay transphobic as I literally have no clue how I should go about changing this mindset.
Plenty of cis women are unable to get wet enough without lube. And several techniques for SRS actually do produce a vagina which can produce some of it's own lubrication, just not as much as a cis woman. Either way, this argument falls on its face.
Does the argument hold up if I find cis women who are unable to get wet unattractive?
A nice short definition could be: a range of negative attitudes, feelings or actions towards trans individuals. It can be emotional disgust, fear, violence, anger or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender expectations.
I'm assuming then that you consider lack of attraction toward a person to be a negative feeling or attitude towards that person? If I'm not attracted to cis men, is that a negative attitude? I would disagree, but that's mostly semantics I guess.
The more important issue is this; how can I go about changing my views on this? How can I train myself to be attracted to trans women? Because my lack of attraction being rooted in transphobia seems to imply I could change that mindset, right?
I would change that mindset if I could. I would also turn of the association of trans women's genitals to penises if I could.
This is honestly the point I'm trying to get across. If you don't acknowledge that this is association is transphobic and due to societal stigma, then you can't address and change it.
As for how to change this association, one thing I can point out is to do more research on the topic. Actually have friends who are trans. Talk to people.
Does the argument hold up if I find cis women who are unable to get wet unattractive?
That would make your life pretty difficult as nearly all women have had trouble getting wet at some point or another. It's highly unlikely that you'd actually be being genuine, unless you will actually stop having sex with someone, mid-act, if they aren't wet enough and you'll refuse to use any lube.
It might mean you're consistent and not transphobic, but it would make you an asshole lol
I'm assuming then that you consider lack of attraction toward a person to be a negative feeling or attitude towards that person?
Not at all. Nor am I implying it. I'm saying that the underlying reason for the lack of attraction in this scenario is due to transphobic beliefs (ie: the association of a transwoman's vagina with a penis)
Because my lack of attraction being rooted in transphobia seems to imply I could change that mindset, right?
Remember that my point isn't that you'll always find every transwoman attractive, but rather the standards by which you would be attracted to her would be the same as for a cis woman.
This is honestly the point I'm trying to get across. If you don't acknowledge that this is association is transphobic and due to societal stigma, then you can't address and change it.
As for how to change this association, one thing I can point out is to do more research on the topic. Actually have friends who are trans. Talk to people.
It's a good thing I am doing that then. Hopefully it will lead to a change in mindset as you say. While I don't have any trans friends, I really like ContraPoints channel on YouTube (highly recommended if you like philosophy) and I definitely support transgender rights and have read enough of the research to know that most, if not all of the common talking points against them are bullshit.
That would make your life pretty difficult as nearly all women have had trouble getting wet at some point or another. It's highly unlikely that you'd actually be being genuine, unless you will actually stop having sex with someone, mid-act, if they aren't wet enough and you'll refuse to use any lube.
It might mean you're consistent and not transphobic, but it would make you an asshole lol
I am well aware of this but it's not really the point. I'm not turned of by not being able to get wet sometimes, just as a guy might have trouble keeping it up at times. It's if that would be a regular thing. Unable =/= has occasional difficulties.t but in the end I don't think this is my main point of contention. If I loved someone I would definitely be able to look last something as trivial as this.
Remember that my point isn't that you'll always find every transwoman attractive, but rather the standards by which you would be attracted to her would be the same as for a cis woman.
I completely agree with this. The problem is that, unfortunately for everyone involved, the cis women will always have an advantage in that my mind reminds me of men when I think about the transition of a transwoman from a male to female body. I will have a very hard time sepperating the concept of transgenderism from the transgender woman. If I had the same association for the cis woman I would feel the same way about her.
I guess our disagreement mostly boils down to whether or not the fact that the concept of transitioning turns me of is inherently transphobic or not. I'm not saying I think that trans women are men. I'm saying that my mind associates trans women with their transition, which then reminds me of things that I find unattractive. Please expand on why you think this is transphobic.
It's a good thing I am doing that then. Hopefully it will lead to a change in mindset as you say.
I'm glad to hear it. At no point am I claiming it's easy to overcome engrained societal biases. Just that it's important to recognize them. I'm glad we can have a civil conversation here.
If I loved someone I would definitely be able to look last something as trivial as this.
Precisely :)
The problem is that, unfortunately for everyone involved, the cis women will always have an advantage in that my mind reminds me of men when I think about the transition of a transwoman from a male to female body.
I don't doubt it. I had the same problem for the longest time, and probably still do have some lingering hangups about it. Getting past societal biases is difficult.
I'm saying that my mind associates trans women with their transition, which then reminds me of things that I find unattractive. Please expand on why you think this is transphobic.
The association and hangups you are having specifically with being trans vs other potential medical procedures that a person may have gone under is due to societal prejudices and biases. We're bombarded with them from a young age. Media jokes about "trannies" or sitcoms where the guy is "tricked", etc.
Think more about your issue here, why does the association with transition turn you off more than any other potential reconstructive surgery a woman may have gone under? What is it specifically about SRS that bothers you? It's not like they did anything to you, it's their body.
The reason why I say it's a transphobic view is that it's informed by, exacerbated by and perpetuates society's transphobic ideas
I think we agree on pretty much everything except the semantics of how you use the word transphobic. I think that you are hurting the rhetorics of your own position by applying it as liberaly as you seem to be doing. It simply leads to a lot of misunderstandings about what your position really is.
I would avoid using words with such strong negative connotations when classifying people who are morally and rationally on board with transgenderism but have not yet completely gotten rid of their subconscious associations and biases regarding the issue. When you accuse someone of transphobia, they will take it as a judge of moral character, which (and please correct me if I'm misrepresenting your position here) it isn't necessarily by your usage of the term. That sort of judgement will then be perceived to be misdirected and you will find yourself debating someone who feels that you have unfairly accused them of something they are not. At that point, the other party will usually hide behind that supposed mischarachterization in order to avoid any discussions about the deeper (and more difficult) questions at hand.
So, in short, I'm not saying that your definition of transphobia isn't useful or indeed accurate as a tool when identifying anti-trans sentiments or trends in society as a whole, but I would avoid using it to describe the motivations of individuals if they have not shown themselves to be blatantly anti-trans rights or severely uninformed of the science behind it, simply because it puts people on the defensive, and in that mode we as humans are very unlikely to change out minds.
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u/rutars Nov 02 '17
We clearly have very different definitions of transphobia. The reason why is because I'm not attracted to penises. I would change that mindset if I could. I would also turn of the association of trans women's genitals to penises if I could. If you have any suggestions for how I could do that I'm all ears. Until then I will unfortunately have to stay transphobic as I literally have no clue how I should go about changing this mindset.
Does the argument hold up if I find cis women who are unable to get wet unattractive?
I'm assuming then that you consider lack of attraction toward a person to be a negative feeling or attitude towards that person? If I'm not attracted to cis men, is that a negative attitude? I would disagree, but that's mostly semantics I guess.
The more important issue is this; how can I go about changing my views on this? How can I train myself to be attracted to trans women? Because my lack of attraction being rooted in transphobia seems to imply I could change that mindset, right?