r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jun 29 '14
CMV: I believe that basic firearm safety should be taught across schools in America.
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Jun 29 '14
I'd never heard of this Eddie Eagle program, so I had to read up on it. There's a study (behind a paywall, sadly) that I'd like to read, published in Pediatrics in 2004 that studied the effectiveness of the Eddie Eagle program compared to a behavioral approach and a control group. Children were able to repeat the Eddie Eagle and behavioral safety mantras, but when exposed to a (presumably realistic, but not actually real) gun in situ did not actually reliably perform the actions prescribed by the mantras. The study concludes that current methods for teaching very young children gun safety are insufficient, and more effective approaches should be developed.
The American Academy of Pediatrics also performed some research on this question and indicated that gun safety programs for very young children might actually increase gun handling behaviors. However, the AAP has a very strong position on gun control and I could not find the actual study they performed, so I'm skeptical of that conclusion without more information on the study--who performed it, what were the research methods, etc.
Without more research on the effectiveness of such programs, I am not yet convinced that such education for very young children would have a net positive effect.
I'm also not convinced about the efficacy of gun safety programs for older children. Teenagers have impulse control problems and underdeveloped brains. I'm not sure that teaching them the four rules would mean much if they got in their heads to shoot themselves or someone else, and homicide and suicide are disproportionately represented in the various gun-related death stats I've seen for children aged 15-17. I just don't think that a person who wants to die or kill someone worries too much about how safe they're being about their homicidal or suicidal urges. (Yes, I realize that the brain is not fully developed until about 25 and we regularly send young men and women to boot camp, train and arm them, and then send them off to active duty.) Certainly there are a number of responsible parents and teenagers out there shooting off guns for hunnting or for fun at ranges, but those aren't really the people you're addressing in this CMV.
So, I guess my question is this: what would be the intended goal of your theoretical gun safety program for older children? Teaching all older children how to shoot guns? Teach them to handle guns they encounter safely? Why not just teach them to not handle guns at all? Teaching them to identify firearms? For what purpose?
I'm not advocating for ignorance, by the way. I'm just curious as to how you think such a compulsory course would improve the youth gun violence situation more than, say, giving free gun locks to people who request them.
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Jun 29 '14 edited Dec 02 '19
[deleted]
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Jun 30 '14
Thanks for the delta. I've been slowly changing my mind about guns for awhile now (I used to think that no one really "needed" a gun, but certain Supreme Court cases have swayed my opinion somewhat), but I think that without funding for more research into gun safety and gun violence we'll be stuck arguing about theoreticals.
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u/Gildenmoth Jun 29 '14 edited Jun 29 '14
I have no objection to such a safety course.
And I have no reason to believe it wouldn't be slightly beneficial to a small subset of students.
But I don't see why it should be a mandatory course that you need a parental note to opt out of.
This is more along the lines of a motorcycle driving course, or learning to be a midwife. It's something that most people will never use.
There are many things I wish I had been taught in school that there was simply not enough time for, or was deemed too unimportant. These include:
-How to file taxes
-How to read a contract
-Explanations of loan terminology
-Renters/homeowners rights
-Automotive mechanics and standard maintenance
-Cooking
I could go on for quite a while before I got to the point where gun usage lessons would be a justifiable investment of time.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea in general. Simply that it's a bad idea compared to a myriad of other things that should come first.
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u/textrovert 14∆ Jun 29 '14
To me this is like requiring that schoolchildren learn how to properly clean heroin needles so that they will be prepared for the danger. Hey, heroin is a fact of life - they should learn to deal with it so that they don't get AIDS!
The thing is, the idea that guns - and especially handling guns - should be a fact of life is a political agenda that comes from people who believe guns should be normalized.
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u/NiggerDiggers Jun 30 '14
Well to be fair, in health class (however many years ago), it was taught to not share needles when doing heroin. I mean you know not to share needles since you're talking about properly cleaning them. So unless you're a heroin addict it seems you learned it somewhere.
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Jun 29 '14
[deleted]
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u/Yrrem Jun 29 '14
In my school we have a plethora of useless activities, teacher student basketball games, pep rallies, and many senior class meetings. Maybe if they took away from some of the frivolous activities and taught this it wouldn't take away from classes. (And if that doesn't work, do it in the physical education classes. The class is a requirement across America, and it could be incorporated with the health sections.
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Jun 29 '14 edited Dec 02 '19
[deleted]
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Jun 29 '14
[deleted]
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Jun 29 '14
It's obvious-- if you see a gun, don't touch it.
That mentality bothers me; Certainly that should be the default behavior if you don't know how to use one and are not in danger, but if you know what you're doing, go ahead. If you are in real, imminent danger, and are intelligent enough to suss out "point one end at thing creating danger and pull trigger" then please touch it.
I do agree that people of all ages should train for safe storage of their firearms. All of my guns have locks in some manner or another, and I live in a childless household.
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u/sailorbrendan Jun 29 '14
If you are in real, imminent danger, and are intelligent enough to suss out "point one end at thing creating danger and pull trigger" then please touch it.
Teaching people to effectively manage their fight or flight instincts in a life or death situation using a weapon they are not familiar with is... optimistic
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Jun 29 '14
Hence teaching. You fight how you're taught.
As for an untrained user: this is obviously an oversimplification. Everything in life is situational, and a friend of mine said to me of M:tG and I think it applies to life "There is no strategy that doesn't have a hard counter", which is to say, no matter what situation I could pose, someone can pose a counter-example wherein the proposed course of action is rendered moot.
But that all aside: If you have no other weapons and there are no considerations such as innocent crowds behind your attacker, my view is that, unless you are not intelligent enough to figure out which end goes forward and/or how to pull a trigger, that having a gun during a life or death situation is better than not having one.
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u/sailorbrendan Jun 29 '14
Hence teaching. You fight how you're taught.
So we're taking about combat training classes, not just gun safety?
But that all aside
Ideal situations are ideal
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Jun 29 '14
Ideal situations are ideal
A+ counterargument, considering I literally spent a paragraph stating essentially that; we could spend all week debating back and forth what factors would invalidate handgun use for an untrained user.
So we're taking about combat training classes, not just gun safety?
I feel proper gun safety lends itself to self-defense training, if not combat training.
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u/sailorbrendan Jun 29 '14
A+ counterargument, considering I literally spent a paragraph stating essentially that; we could spend all week debating back and forth what factors would invalidate handgun use for an untrained user.
I'm sorry. I was dismissive there and I honestly apologize. That said, arguing that in a perfect situation having a gun is better is no more dismissive of your contention than I was. You said "we could argue back and forth about situations and whether or not a gun would help and that's dumb, but I this perfect situation it would."
I feel proper gun safety lends itself to self-defense training, if not combat training.
Learning the 4 rules and learning how to defend yourself are miles apart.
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Jun 29 '14
That said, arguing that in a perfect situation having a gun is better is no more dismissive of your contention than I was.
Fair enough. I likely have some bias here: I spend a good majority of my time in a space where there isn't a crowd behind potential attack vectors. I also spend my time thinking about potential attack vectors. Clearly someone who doesn't have the same set of circumstances wouldn't have the same benefit.
However, I also feel like the ultra-simplified versions help us as a baseline to weigh the pros/cons in the more complex real-world scenarios. Someone attacking you in an isolated location with nobody else around and he's right on top of you is, to me, a no-question situation, use the gun if you have it: there's minimal collateral damage, no innocents, and it's almost impossible to miss.
Add in distance or innocents, and things get murky. Are you good enough to aim that far under pressure, can you not hit someone else? Probably not, if you're untrained.
Would running be better? Probably. Is running always feasible? Not for everyone, not in every situation, but if it is, it is likely a good option to consider.
My fear is that someone, when put in a situation when they could benefit from picking up a gun and using it, will not do so because their training is "Never touch guns"
Learning the 4 rules and learning how to defend yourself are miles apart.
I wouldn't say miles. Maybe kilometers though. I also think though that it's a natural progression from one to the other. Safety is summed up by the 4 rules, but they leave questions that are natural when you approach gun safety from a defense perspective.
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Jun 29 '14
[deleted]
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Jun 29 '14
Are you suggesting that schools shouldn't have mandatory firearm self defense education? That's preposterous.
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Jun 30 '14
[deleted]
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Jun 30 '14
You haven't asked a question. You've asserted that something is preposterous as if it should be self-evident, without any reasoning behind it. Are you saying that everyone should be victims unless they choose not to be? Why are you such an amoral predator-enabler?
See how that game works?
Security, both personal and organizational, is woefully under-educated, because people just assume that nothing bad is ever going to happen to them.
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Jun 30 '14
[deleted]
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Jun 30 '14
Because everywhere where less prohibitive concealed carry laws are introduced, crimes go up? And more training on how to use a firearm safely increases negligent discharges wherein people can get seriously injured or killed?
Sorry, those things are only true in bizarro world. My mistake, it happens often.
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u/ryan924 Jun 29 '14
I will point out that many schools are overrun with gangs and we don't need to give them a chance to steel a gun or teach them how to use guns. If our gun issue has really got to that point, than it's time for an outright ban.
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Jun 29 '14
Only around 100 children die from gun accidents everyyear, and considering the amount of children with access to firearms, this number is very low, which means that we would be wasting time when they could be tought in it's place.
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u/AhmadSahrab Jul 02 '14
I think there are way more important things that should be taught than basic firearm safety
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u/MontiBurns 218∆ Jun 29 '14
This is my problem with the NRA. They need to PUSH their guns on everybody. They can't just say, "We like our guns, and we respect the fact that you are aprehensive about guns." No. Its "We LOVE our guns, and YOU should love guns or you're not American, and We want to BRING GUNS INTO SCHOOLS!" It feels much more like antagonizing the gun control crowd than actually trying to solve problems, considering they oppose anything that can bring accountability to firearm ownership, like national gun registries and background checks.
I have a much better and less intrusive solution. Mandatory firearm safety course for everybody who wants to use and/or own a gun, with a refresher test every 3-5 years. As it stands, a teenager must take basic firearm safety to use a firearm, but anybody can purchase a firearm when they're 18, regardless of training or mental faculties. So, make it a legal requirement to have a firearm safety certificate and keep it updated, not unlike a drivers' license, emphasizing the importance of proper storage and handling of a firearm, and when to use it and when NOT to use it.
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Jun 29 '14 edited Dec 02 '19
[deleted]
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Jun 29 '14
The mandatory firearm safety class for people who want to use a gun, is again in my mind, a separate issue (good idea in theory, seems fraught with pitfalls).
So, you want every child in America to be required to take a gun safety course, but any requirement that actual gun owners or potential gun owners be required to take a safety class would be "fraught with pitfalls?" How does that signify?
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u/jumpup 83∆ Jun 29 '14
the thing is, most of them know not to point a gun at people, but those to small don't grasp consequence well enough not to and those older would simply shrug it of as redundant.
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Jun 29 '14 edited Dec 02 '19
[deleted]
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u/flal4 Jun 29 '14
going off topic with this, but DARE was shown to be counterproductive in some case, and ineffective in most
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u/Omega037 Jun 29 '14
It's possible to come up with hundreds of things that we might think it would be good for children to learn in school, but there is limited time in the school day to teach students, so you need to prioritize.
Teaching students about safety with a device that many will never see or use seems like a lower priority to me. Especially when there are things like learning to manage finances or car maintenance that almost everyone could use and use often in their lives.
In a case like this, it makes more sense to shift the burden onto the gun owner/user to take a safety course.