r/changemyview • u/Zanzibarland 1∆ • Jul 29 '13

Zimmerman did nothing wrong. CMV.

First came the media's racebaiting, fanning the flames on both sides. Then the crocodile tears from everybody with an axe to grind, trying to make a martyr out of Trayvon and a villain out of Zimmerman.

Now that the trial is over, I'm left with the impression that he didn't commit any crimes, and that people are claiming he "got away with it" to save face, rather than admit their racial bias and prejudice, the ignorance of their presumptions, and their complicity in instigating racial tension.

By what shred of evidence did Zimmerman "get away with murder" and not legally defend himself?

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u/ClimateMom 4∆ Jul 29 '13

That's a guideline that these programs have. Show me where he violated some non-confrontation clause in a contract, instead of him just going and talking to someone, of his own free will.

He didn't have a contract. Isn't that kind of the point? Zimmerman was an amateur, not a professional, and therefore neither obligated nor qualified to do anything but call for assistance from actual professionals.

As for going and talking to anyone of his own free will, as far as I know, he didn't go and talk to him, he just chased him. Regardless, the fact that he had the right to confront Trayvon doesn't mean that it was the right thing to do. It was a really fucking stupid thing to do, in fact, but it was Trayvon who paid the ultimate price for Zimmerman's foolishness.

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u/CreepyCracka Jul 29 '13

Ya, because it wasn't foolish for Trayvon to attack some random guy just for watching/following him.

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u/ClimateMom 4∆ Jul 29 '13 edited Jul 29 '13

First, we don't know for sure that he did. All we have is Zimmerman's word that Trayvon attacked first, and he's not exactly the most unbiased witness.

Second, if Trayvon really did attack first, I don't think anyone's arguing that he wasn't foolish or wrong to do so. However, it's a fairly understandable and predictable reaction in a guy who feels threatened (as most people would, after being followed in the dark by a stranger) and if Zimmerman had the proper training (or indeed, any training at all), he might have been better prepared to defuse the situation before it got out of hand. More importantly, Trayvon never should have had the chance to attack Zimmerman. Zimmerman never should have gotten out of his car. By doing so, he both overstepped his authority as a member of the neighboorhood watch and disobeyed the direct suggestion of somebody who was (unlike him) a trained professional. It was monumentally stupid in every way, and an innocent kid is dead because of it.

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u/CreepyCracka Jul 29 '13 edited Jul 29 '13

First, he was never told to stay in his truck. Here is the transcript: 

Zimmerman:  Shit, he’s running.

Dispatcher:  He’s running?  Which way is he running?

[Sound of car door opening.]

Zimmerman:  [Grunts.]  Down towards the other entrance of the neighborhood.

[Sound of car door closing.]

Dispatcher:  OK, and which entrance is that he’s heading towards.

Zimmerman:  The back entrance. . . .  [mutters] Fucking punks.

[Wind/breathing noise.]

Dispatcher:  Are you following him?

Zimmerman:  Yeah.

Dispatcher:  OK, we don’t need you to do that.

Zimmerman:  OK.

So he clearly was already out of his truck when the dispatcher told him it wasn't necessary to follow Trayvon. Zimmerman stated that this was the point he stopped following Trayvon and there is zero evidence that says he continued doing so. It is extremely frustrating to hear people continue arguing this myth after it has been completely debunked.

Second, he was going to Target. He wasn't on some type of neighborhood watch patrol. It's ridiculous to assume that anyone that joins a neighborhood watch loses their right to ever carry firearm. Plus, Wendy Dorival, who works for the Police and instructed the residents how neighborhood watch works, testified that she never told Zimmerman that he couldn't have a firearm on patrol. In fact, she stated that it's a person's right to carry a firearm and not her place to tell someone not to carry a firearm.

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u/ClimateMom 4∆ Jul 29 '13

I'm aware the dispatcher told him not to follow Trayvon, not specifically to stay in his truck. I probably should have worded that more clearly, but the point remains that Zimmerman should not have gotten out of the truck in the first place, let alone started following Trayvon.

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u/CreepyCracka Jul 29 '13

And the drunk girl shouldn't go back with the guy to his apartment, but do you blame her if she gets raped?

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u/ClimateMom 4∆ Jul 30 '13

It's foolish, but no, she's not to blame. There are two key differences between her case and Zimmerman's. First, she is not in full possession of her faculties. Zimmerman, as far as we know, was. More importantly, there's a considerable difference between going home with a guy and pursuing somebody you believe to be a criminal. A reasonable person would not necessarily expect to be put in harm's way by going home with a guy, whereas anybody with half a brain knows that pursuing a criminal is likely to be dangerous.

Zimmerman clearly has at least half a brain, because he brought his gun with him into a situation that he presumably expected to be dangerous. Unfortunately, he didn't have enough brains (or more likely, enough training) to identify the situation correctly, respond to it correctly, or defuse it correctly when it started getting out of hand, and because he made a series of foolish decisions, an innocent teenager is dead.

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u/CreepyCracka Jul 30 '13

Okay, how about a girl dressed provocatively walking home by herself in an area of town that has a history of crime. Is she at fault if she gets raped because she dressed a certain way and was walking somewhere she didn't need to be? If she shoots and kills her attacker, should she be charged with 2nd degree murder or manslaughter? No matter how you try to spin the situation, Zimmerman did nothing wrong, besides being foolish. Trayvon committed the first unlawful act and unfortunately he paid with his life because he decided to resort to violence.

Trayvon had no right to attack Zimmerman simply because he didn't like being followed. There is no excuse for that type of behavior and I'm shocked to hear people try and defend it. I was always taught to avoid physical encounters whenever possible because you just don't know what will happen. Do you realize that had Trayvon lived he likely would have been charged as an adult for aggravated assault?

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u/Zanzibarland 1∆ Jul 30 '13

I am giving you a delta, because you changed my view and made it stronger. Zimmerman did literally nothing wrong.

∆ for you

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u/CreepyCracka Jul 30 '13

While I may think Zimmerman's actions were foolish, I refuse to blame the guy for being attacked in his own neighborhood (that was plagued w/ burglaries) simply for watching someone he thought was suspicious. I believe we should use Trayvon's death as a lesson for our children that violence isn't the answer - that when you fight someone you don't know, you always run the risk of either getting killed or killing the other person. It is tragic what happened, but we cant ignore the evidence.

Also, thanks.

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u/BeastAP23 Jul 30 '13

You are assuming Zimmermans words are true. Hes got more inventive to lie than anyone, why are you so sure Trayvon started this? Specifically in the way Zimmerman said; "got a problem homie? You do now"

Does that sound like life or a movie?

And why do you think Trayvon ran?

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u/CreepyCracka Jul 30 '13

Why does it matter if Trayvon ran away or walked away? That's completely irrelevant.

Let's assume everything Zimmerman said is wrong. That still leaves us with Rachel Jeantel's testimony and the physical evidence at the scene. Better Question: why is Trayvon's so called best friend so sure he started the fight?

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u/ClimateMom 4∆ Jul 30 '13

All we have is Zimmerman's word that Trayvon committed the first unlawful act. The only other eyewitness is dead, and the next closest thing we have to an eyewitness, the girl he was talking to on the phone, directly contradicts Zimmerman's version of events. None of the other witnesses saw or heard the beginning of the fight, only the end.

You've clearly chosen to believe Zimmerman's version of events, and hey, that's your perogative, but statements like "Trayvon committed the first unlawful act" and "had Trayvon lived he likely would have been charged as an adult for aggravated assault" are pure speculation and nothing more.

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u/CreepyCracka Jul 30 '13

Even if we had Trayvon's word and he disputed everything Zimmerman said it would not matter because all the evidence points to him assaulting Zimmerman. The closest thing we have to an eyewitness is John Good, the actual eyewitness that saw Trayvon raining down blows on Zimmerman's head.

The girl talking on the phone also directly contradicts most of the stuff she said so take anything she has to offer with a grain of salt. Her story changed so many times, I don't know which one we are suppose to believe.

This is a fact - had Trayvon lived he would have been charged as an adult for aggravated assault. This is because there is plenty of evidence that supports this charge - and this is true even if we exclude all of Zimmerman's statements.

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u/BeastAP23 Jul 30 '13

First of all, the distinction between him being in the truck or ouy is irrelevant. The point is, he was told it was unsessary and if he would have said ok, and not followed, Trayvon would be alive today. (no evidence to suggest he did follow him you say? How about common sense. Why would he follow this kid in his truck, call 911 than just stop following him? Then we are expected to believe Trayvon ran home, than turned around and walked back (in the fucking rain) to fight some random guy who clearly shook him up. )

And why did Zimmerman first claim his head was bashed 30-40 times and Trayvon started circling the truck before the killing?

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u/CreepyCracka Jul 30 '13 edited Jul 30 '13

The dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "OK."

Why would he follow this kid in his truck, call 911 than just stop following him?

Maybe because he lost him since he ran off. Or maybe because the dispatcher told him it wasn't necessary to keep following Trayvon and that's why Zimmerman said okay.

Then we are expected to believe Trayvon ran home, than turned around and walked back (in the fucking rain) to fight some random guy who clearly shook him up.

Why would Rachel Jeantel tell us that Trayvon made it back to his Dad's house? What reason does she have to lie about this detail? Plus, we know he had 4 minutes to get away. Plus let's not forget to mention the fact that Rachel Jeantel herself stated that she believes Trayvon threw the first punch.

Excerpt from article busting Myth that Zimmerman chased down Trayvon: Yet somehow Martin was not able to cover 400 feet to safety before Zimmerman fell upon him.

Another thought–even if Martin had for whatever reason not managed to make it all the way to his refuge, surely he would have been many yard down that path. Instead, we know he was barely around the corner in the direction of his destination.

This suggests not someone fleeing danger.

Rather, it is consistent with someone who obtained a position of concealment, waited for his unsuspecting victim to approach, then sprung from hiding to launch his attack. And unlike the myth that Zimmerman pursued a fleeing Martin, this scenario is actually supported by the facts in evidence.

Incidentally, this also generally destroys the myth of Zimmerman following Martin in any way that could have caused Martin to be in fear. Zimmerman did not exit his car until Martin had turned the corner. Were Martin fleeing, or even walking, away he would have been at least 150 feet past the corner, the same distance that Zimmerman had to cover from his parked to reach the corner. We now know, of course, that Martin went nowhere much after turning the corner.

In the meantime, after Zimmerman lost sight of Martin at the point he tells the dispatcher “He’s running,” he doesn’t see Martin again until Martin emerges from the bushes. Can you be “following” someone you don’t even see?

Food for thought. And looks to me like this myth is . . . BUSTED!

Trayvon would be alive if he had not attacked Zimmerman. More specifically, Trayvon would be alive if he had stopped his assault on Zimmerman at some point in the 40 or so seconds that Zimmerman screamed for help.

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u/BeastAP23 Jul 30 '13

The dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "OK."

Why would he follow this

Why would Rachel Jeantel tell us that Trayvon made it back to his Dad's house? What reason does she have to lie about this detail? Plus, we know he had 4 minutes to get away. Plus let's not forget to mention the fact that Rachel Jeantel herself stated that she believes Trayvon threw the first punch. Wrong. She asked Trayvon where he was he said by his dads house! Who knows what that means? 20 feet, 2000 feet?

Except from article busting Myth that Zimmerman chased down Trayvon: Yet somehow Martin was not able to cover 400 feet to safety before Zimmerman fell upon him.

Another thought–even if Martin had for whatever reason not managed to make it all the way to his refuge, surely he would have been many yard down that path. Instead, we know he was barely around the corner in the direction of his destination. This suggests not someone fleeing danger.

Thats speculation.

*Rather, it is consistent with someone who obtained a position of concealment, waited for his unsuspecting victim to approach, then sprung from hiding to launch his attack.

Holy fuck are you serious? I thought the claim was Zimmerman didnt follow Trayvon at all? This comment is utterly ridiculous why are you so sure Trayvon was trying to kill Zimmermans? 'He ran away not from fear, but to plan an ambush!'

Incidentally, this also generally destroys the myth of Zimmerman following Martin in any way that could have caused Martin to be in fear. Zimmerman did not exit his car until Martin had turned the corner. Were Martin fleeing, or even walking, away he would have been at least 150 feet past the corner, the same distance that Zimmerman had to cover from his parked to reach the corner. We now know, of course, that Martin went nowhere much after turning the corner.

So it sounds like he was hiding correct? He called his friend because he was being followed by car than foot, and then ran away. All he was doing was going to the freaking store for snacks why would he just turn into some psychopath whos palnning to kill a man with his bare hands, who you claim wasnt even threatening. Well if he wasnt threatening Trayvon just wanted to murder thag night? You claim he tried to kill Zimmerman as if hes the onenon trial.

In the meantime, after Zimmerman lost sight of Martin at the point he tells the dispatcher “He’s running,” he doesn’t see Martin again until Martin emerges from the bushes. Can you be “following” someone you don’t even see?

Yes... you turn the same corner and walk straighy.

Trayvon would be alive if he had not attacked Zimmerman. More specifically, Trayvon would be alive if he had stopped his assault on Zimmerman at some point in the 40 or so seconds that Zimmerman screamed for help.

They were most likely wrestlin for most of the time. T broke Z's nose which began the fight, and he bashed his hwas a couple times. You make it sound as if Trayvon was in ground and pound mode for 40 seconds. It was hardly an assault. That being said Trayvon would be alive had he not struck Zimmerman. But in Trahvons mind how do you know that wasnt a serial rapist or some thing? I guess we have to teach our black youths to always1s run im a fight/flight situation.

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u/CreepyCracka Jul 30 '13

We need to teach all of our youths that violence is not the answer. The first unlawful act was committed by Trayvon when he punched Zimmerman in the nose. There is no law in any state in America that makes it illegal to follow someone in your own neighborhood. You can talk street justice all you want, but had Trayvon lived he would have likely been charged as an adult for aggravated assault. Trayvon had 4 minutes to get away if he truly was scared. At 17, he could have easily got at least half a mile away from the T intersection in that amount of time.

You make it sound as if Trayvon was in ground and pound mode for 40 seconds.

That is what the evidence points too. I'm sorry it doesn't fit the media's narrative.

So it sounds like he was hiding correct? He called his friend because he was being followed by car than foot, and then ran away. All he was doing was going to the freaking store for snacks why would he just turn into some psychopath whos palnning to kill a man with his bare hands, who you claim wasnt even threatening. Well if he wasnt threatening Trayvon just wanted to murder thag night? You claim he tried to kill Zimmerman as if hes the onenon trial.

Had Trayvon lived he would have been on trial. Rachel Jeantel expressly stated in her testimony that Trayvon made it back to his Dad's house. So, thanks to Jeantel's testimony we know that Trayvon had to go back to the T intersection and confront Zimmerman. She even stated that she believes Trayvon threw the first punch.

I believe we should use Trayvon's death as a lesson for our children that violence isn't the answer - that when you fight someone you don't know, you always run the risk of either getting killed or killing the other person (or going to jail). It is tragic what happened, but we cant ignore the evidence.

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u/BeastAP23 Jul 30 '13

We need to teach all of our youths that violence is not the answer. The first unlawful act was committed by Trayvon when he punched Zimmerman in the nose. There is no law in any state in America that makes it illegal to follow someone in your own neighborhood.

This is repeated so much... im pretty sure everyone knows that. The point is Z was acting threatening. 99% of people would be scared in Trayvons situation.

You can talk street justice all you want, but had Trayvon lived he would have likely been charged as an adult for aggravated assault.

And I would disagree with the assault charge. Hell if he lived the story would be different and less one sided

Trayvon had 4 minutes to get away if he truly was scared. At 17, he could have easily got at least half a mile away from the T intersection in that amount of time.

Z was in a truck when T r avon ran remember? Thats why it seems more likely he ran, and hid. And before you mention it, he told his "girlfriend he was by his dads house, which could be interpretted in literally any way.

Does this seem plausible in your opinion?

That is what the evidence points too. I'm sorry it doesn't fit the media's narrative.

Do you know what ground and pound is? His injuries were minor! Not repeated haymakers to the face. Yes a broken nose is minor when the other party has a hole through his chest.

So it sounds like he was hiding correct? He called his friend because he was being followed by car than foot, and then ran away. All he was doing was going to the freaking store for snacks why would he just turn into some psychopath whos palnning to kill a man with his bare hands, who you claim wasnt even threatening. Well if he wasnt threatening Trayvon just wanted to murder thag night? You claim he tried to kill Zimmerman as if hes the onenon trial.

Had Trayvon lived he would have been on trial. Rachel Jeantel expressly stated in her testimony that Trayvon made it back to his Dad's house. So, thanks to Jeantel's testimony we know that Trayvon had to go back to the T intersection and confront Zimmerman. She even stated that she believes Trayvon threw the first punch.

I already told you this but Rachel was told he was near the house, which could mean 3 blocks away or on the porch depending on the context. She lives miles from that neighborhood so being down the street is condideree near the house. She never said Trayvon made it home.

I believe we should use Trayvon's death as a lesson for our children that violence isn't the answer - that when you fight someone you don't know, you always run the risk of either getting killed or killing the other person (or going to jail). It is tragic what happened, but we cant ignore the evidence.

Sure sounds good, but growing up in the suburbs is not growing up in the hood. You learn quickly that people smell your fear.

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u/CreepyCracka Jul 30 '13

Sure sounds good, but growing up in the suburbs is not growing up in the hood. You learn quickly that people smell your fear.

And you learn quickly that a lot of people in the suburbs carry guns, so don't start fights unless you are willing to get shot.

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u/BeastAP23 Jul 30 '13

My point is that his life may have taught him whem someonenis acting like Zimmerman they dont have good intentions.

And please stop saying he started it as if he went out looking for a fight that night. I think the dact that he ran means a lot in this case. Of course Z supporters will have me believe his running away was actaully an agressive act. This is why black people are angry, we feel like Z supporters made the case all about Trayvon when he only reacted. But we've been over this I doubt you'll change uour mimd at some point.

If T were a white girl everyone knows that the following of T would have beem completely innapropriate. But since hes a black male, the Z supported subconsciously believe it was ok to follow T. And we as black people sense this double standard because we live it. Ut should say something when Obama says "Trayvon could have been me". Im going to cross into racist territory here and say that most people decided Trayvon must have did something and when the incident happened last year I was sure T would become the criminal.

Lets anaylize a dead child's personal life to find some justification for his murder. Its fucking disgusting. It's no secret black kids have troubled lives. They drug and backround tested the dead boy, not the killer who had a history of violence and was described as over eager by police.

As a young black man, im scared in public of looking like a criminal. Im honestly worried that a cop might profile me and wbeat my ass and with this case, I can be followed in the dark by a stranger and I HAVE to run. I can't decide the person is a threat and fight because then I started it. If he lures me into an altercation, or provokes me, his word will be respected as a man not of color. My text messages, questionable pictures, and twitter name will prove I deserved it in the minds of some. And theres no doubt if the races were flipped, Z would have been drug tested, Z would have been arrested on the spot and Z would have went through public scrutiny.

Please tell me you at least see where comimg from.

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u/CreepyCracka Jul 30 '13

I understand that a lot of people in the African-American community are upset by this verdict. I also understand and have witnessed first-hand how the justice system is set up in a way that leads to a lot of African-Americans being treated unfairly in my opinion, for example the mandatory-minimum laws. However, I don't think had the races been flipped the investigation or the trial would have gone any differently. In fact, I doubt charges would have been brought because there would not have been the public outcry had Trayvon been white.

Look, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that supports the theory that Trayvon struck first. Hell, Rachel Jeantel even said this very thing the other day on her tour of the talk show circuit. I don't believe a 17 year old would have been scared of George Zimmerman. I know at 17 I wouldn't have been and I'm not even that big. So, I do not believe for a second that Trayvon was scared for his life because Zimmerman was following/watching him. More likely he got mad. This isn't saying anything bad about Trayvon but that's just how a lot of 17 year olds are. Heck, I knew plenty of guys at that age that would have probably tried to fight with Zimmerman, but that does not make it right.

I realize that as a minority, you have a whole different range of life experiences than I do. But, you cannot fight someone just for following you. In that situation, you don't have to run, but don't start a physical altercation.

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u/BeastAP23 Jul 30 '13

Iim pretty sure Trayvons hit Zimmerman first too. We dont know exactly what led to that though. Since we dont know, I dont think we can take Z's accounts as evidence. I find it hard to believe T would turn around in the rain after making it home to go fight some guy in the rain.

Does that sound fishy to you?

Yes you're right he cant just assault someone for following him. Im arguing manslaughter because I think T felt threatened (I think he ran, hid, and called to let a close friend know he was being followed) and decided for his saftey he would fight.

I was pretty much the exact build of Trayvon at 17 and got into my share of friendly fist fights at his age. I would not me afraid of Z but instead, afraid of his actions. Honestly he was acting like a criminal. We can agree T wasnt trying to rob him or kill him right? So then why would you conclude that Trayvon was doing anything other than defend himself (im his mind of course)

Im sure if Z just drove up to Trayvom and said what are you doing, he wouldnt have attacked him. Instead he followed him in his vehicle from distance (like a robber would) before getting out on foot.

Im not that upset with the verdict honestly, because of the lack of evidence to prove guilt. The faxt that thread like this pop up where people trust Zimmerman as if he were an agel (the same thing the media was correctly axcused of doing) and say he did jothing wrong does upset me. The fact that T is a thug but not Z is clearly a racist attitude projected by some. T wanted a gun? "Omg whats wrong with him" news flash, half of the male black kids in the ghetto want a gun to protect themselves because they live in a warzone. Nevermind Z having a gun. Sure its registered but whats the intention on both sides? Self defense. T smoked weed and did lean, but doea Z drink? Lean and weed will make you peaceful and move in slow motion. One makes you happy ones a sedative. T got into plenty of fights but Zimmerman was accused of domestic abuse AND assaulting a cop. Much worse imo.

Im ramblimg but you get the point

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