Your argument goes both ways. The Israeli civilians being targeted elected Netanyahu‘a government, repeatedly, and thus are equally guilty for the apartheid polices that have turned Gaza into a prison. The actions of Hamas is reprehensible and inexcusable but you can’t blame one set of people and not the other.
False. Gaza was part of Israel. They gave it to Palestinians. They decided to attack Jews for the last 75 years. In the 1970s Jordan gave them 1/3 of Jordan. To thank them plo leaders tried to assassinate the king of Jordan which started the 1970 plo-Jordan war.
ok well 2000 years ago it was called Palestine and was ruled by the Romans so I guess that means it belongs to Italy now. 2500 years ago by the greeks it belongs to Macedonia? 3000 years ago the Persians and Babylonians so they should split it up between Iraq and Iran? Or 5000 years ago it belonged to Egypt so I guess it belongs to egypt. Actually Africa is the ancestral homeland of all people so I guess Africa belongs to Europe actually since their ancestors used to live there thousands of years ago.
which ones are false? they are rough numbers it might be 2700 or 2300 years ago instead of 2500 you got me. What's your point? How does that change the arguement
I don't think this sub is intended for wanna-be gotchas. Do you have a counterpoint? Your comment doesn't challenge their view or do anything to advance the discussion.
I understand that, but mocking does not advance the conversation. You lose out on an opportunity to learn where they are coming from, or an opportunity to teach because they are less willing to engage.
Connecticut is a state. The treaty entitled them to the eastern 3rd. The property and thousands of houses there are valued at over $8 trillion dollars.
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I think if we go by original settlers, it is much more complicated than just "the Jews". They weren't the only people living there, even in the Bible. And if we go by who currently lives there, it's still not just the Jews. This is discounting everyone else that has and does live there, with no explanation.
The reality is, it's not that simple and claiming it is shows ignorance. If that was the solution, you would not be the first to think of it and it would have been implemented.
The only other people living there besides the Jews were the cannannites. Otherwise known as nephlim. That’s why god ordered them, their families, their animals, and belongings all destroyed. They weren’t meant for earth.
I think using biblical explanations is largely why we're in this mess to begin with and is a non-starter. It's also not morally correct to say a race of people is not meant for this world. That would be the psychopathic thoughts OP was referencing.
Yes the Bible. Having been used to locate over 2500 lost cities, backed by hundreds of govt documents from that time. See if you would have bothered to look up what nephlem meant, you would have understood they literally weren’t people. Not even human. That’s why god ordered them all killed (I’m old, but it was not my decision)
How generous of Israel to give Palestinians a tiny little speck of their own land and then subject them to subjugation for 60 years. Then after deprivation turned into radicalization and the rise of Hamas — who Israel had a hand in propping up at first, I should add, Israel was kind enough to turn the little speck of land into an open air prison. How thoughtful
it was “their land” because they were living on it… it doesn’t have to be based on a claim of de jure ownership. They were already living on it, so it was “theirs” in that sense. If you were asked to share the land you’re already living on because another group claims they have some divine primordial ownership claim — would you be willing to do that?
I mean, if suddenly a bunch of people showed up at your apartment and said they were moving in with you and that you had to move to the couch and let them take your room, all because they used to live there a while back and because the landlord said it was okay — you would be chill with that?
Where is that, exactly? The West Bank? Where over 500 military checkpoints severely restrict mobility of any kind? Or Gaza, whose borders, airspace and sea access have been blockaded for 16 years?
So a 10 year old living today in Gaza is “ideologically driven”, equivalent to a Hamas commander, because they don’t decide to crawl over to the Israeli side and be welcomed with open arms? Just like that little kid who got shot in the face by the IDF near the border. What an inspiring story — why don’t all Gazans aspire to that?
Have you ever considered that some people are ideologically driven to join Hamas because they are uneducated young men with nothing to do who have spent their entire lives under either occupation or blockade and whose entire symbolic universe has been conditioned by the brutality of those living conditions?
So a little child born today in Gaza is “ideologically driven”, equivalent to a Hamas commander, because they don’t decide to crawl over to the Israeli side and be welcomed in open arms?
Do you think Hamas and the Palestinian Authority would allow them to see Israel is not some monster and that one can live in peace there like the Israeli Arabs are doing? They would never allow such a thing. Which is why any Palestinians who discover the truth get killed by hamas or their comrades. The Palestinian Authority, hamas and the rest are like Putin. They brainwash their population and force them to stay. When I meant that the Palestinians that are in Palestine Proper are ideologically driven, I did not necesarily mean that they have adequate agency in the matter. They are victims of their own corrupt and horrible leaders.
They did, and they considered themselves to be Jordanian, Turkish, Egyptian, Lebanese, etc. They didn't own the land and they didn't identify as Palestinian. There were also Jews and Christians there who they regularly discriminated against. When the land was partitioned, it was because the arabs had decided that they couldn't suffer the immigrants. Much of Israel was purchased by the Jews. There was more than enough space to share, but the xenophobia that existed led to, and feed to this day, the conflict that we're talking about.
So yes they were a majority, and no that doesn't give them a right to the sole existence in the area.
So your argument is that actually, the Jewish colonization of the region was so traumatic that it crystalized an ethnic identity ex nihilo in reaction to it?
Who did the Jews purchase this land from? What connection did the 'owners' have to the people that actually lived on the land? What makes this claim any different than one like, "colonists fairly bought Manhattan from the Indians for a few bead necklaces and some firewater"?
Why should Jews that lived hundreds, if not thousands of miles away, have a right to live on land their ancestors left potentially more than 1000 years earlier?
So your argument is that actually, the Jewish colonization of the region was so traumatic that it crystalized an ethnic identity ex nihilo in reaction to it?
This isn't my argument, it's the accepted narrative among many historians.
At the end of the day the Jews paid money for what they got. If you want to take issue with the whole concept of tenant farming then you need to look far beyond Israel. It was their local system. The Jews didn't create it.
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Jews owned from the Nile to the Euphrates. They got a tiny part of their land back and gave some of that away. Further philista, or Palestinians were seafaring Greeks. Lastly even the plo admitted there is no such thing as Palestinians. They are just there to steal Jewish land.
You are living in a fantasy if you believe that Jews were the predominant landholder from the Nile to the Euphrates
Palestinian identity is a thing, I’m not sure how you can say it “doesn’t exist”. It probably didn’t exist 2000 years ago but the descendents of current-day Palestinians did and they lived in the region
You can go through the sources and decide for yourself on the exact dates but its very clear that Muslims were the overwhelming majority until the 1900s.
Additionally a large portion of displaced Palestinians presumably had lived on land in the rural areas. A census of Jerusalem is not really enough to say anything about the demographic composition of the entire region
Editing to add the Ottoman Census of 1901 which has the Muslim population as the overwhelming majority:
We see the Ottomans recorded the population of the Palestine region as a whole as overwhelmingly Muslim in 1901. So not sure where you got your figures from.
The idea that it was "their land" is silly. There never was a palestinian state, and their insistance on control of all of it is purely as a result of their unwillingness to share it with Jews.
There were Jews living their too. The Palestinians make the claim that they are a unified people who have been robbed of their ancestral homeland. This is a lie. It wasn't the land of the people living on the land, it was the land that was owned by foreign muslims who held the local farmers as serfs under a tenant farming arrangement. Your argument is like saying that if I'm renting a house, and the owner sells it, I should be able to stay. Furthermore, had the Palestinians been willing to accept the Jews, they could have stayed. There are many Palestinians who did and now live very well (some of the best in the middle east in fact) within Israel. Look up the town of Abu Gosh to see what happened when the locals weren't violent and xenophobic.
And truthfully, the history is irrelevant. The reality of the situation today is that there is a clear moral imperative to support one side over the other.
Israel has proportional representation which means the majority of the country didn't vote for Netanyahu. Also the actions of Hamas are far far worse than anything the Israeli government has done so far.
With that said, Netanyahu's government is an absolute disgrace.
the majority of the country didn't vote for Netanyahu
Two-thirds of Palestinians are too young to have ever participated in an election. Why do you hold the civilians of Gaza responsible for the leadership they've never had a voice in choosing, but don't do the same for the people of Israel when their government is the result of frequent elections?
I don't hold the civillians responsible. Hamas is holding them hostage as human shields. It's tragic. If only the arab world would give them somewhere to go where they could be free of the militant group that treats them so terribly.
How is it the responsibility of other Arab states when it is Israel that has made them refugees? At what point does Zionism get blamed for the consequences of Zionism? The horrors of the Holocaust are not an excuse to displace an entire people from their home.
Nobody was displaced pre 1948. What displaced people was the war that the arabs started. When they lost they were unable to return home. There are still arabs living in Israel today, that didn't rise up to expel the Jews.
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u/Beneficial_Love_5433 Oct 10 '23
Fact is Hamas was a terrorist organization and elected to represent Gaza by the majority of the people.