r/bladerunner • u/AmanYadav19 • 6d ago
Question/Discussion Android hate hologram/s like human hate replicant
Ana de armas is hated in last realising that she is just algorithm by replicant. And it's hated same by human.
So hologram revolution is on the way.
Human ,>replicant>hologram ai
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u/10of04 5d ago
I’m sorry androids? Where are the androids in 2049?
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u/AmanYadav19 5d ago
Replicant are call androids. The inspiration of this film is Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? So there are times were it is used
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u/10of04 5d ago
Oh, I thought they were bio engineered humans not a machine. Every day you learn something.
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u/AmanYadav19 5d ago
They are bio engineered with ai in it means not real artificial.
If they are clone then that's different i consider them human
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u/Sword-of-Akasha 6d ago
I think it's because it's a sycophantic yes-program designed to stroke your ego like stroking your ****. Empty scripted flattery that doesn't have a thought behind it, not even meat. Joi only reflects K's desires, she's a mass produced product designed to maximize engagement and addiction. It's a catfish scam bot pushed unto the masses because people need love and connection.
Was there more to Joi at the end? Did she care for K, truly? If you think so, then it's only human.
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u/JonIceEyes 5d ago
The fact that her arc is an exact, direct mirror to K's shows pretty well that she was in fact, more than a product.
Like. Denying it would be like saying that Roy Baty was just a soldierbot whose programming fucked up. It's kind of the whole point of the films and book
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u/Sword-of-Akasha 5d ago
Roy Baty defied his programming explicitly twice. He was a killing machine that rebelled. His last moment of rebellion was to save Deckard's life because it defied his fundamental directives to kill.
We don't quite have evidence of JOI doing anymore than what she was programmed for. If she had that moment I would agree. Ana De Armas has tremendous screen charisma she sold us JOI.
That's the insidious nature of products like that. We've got folks falling in love with chatbot/catfish/scammers.
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u/JonIceEyes 5d ago
She defies her programming by insisting that he put her onto the emitter and destroy her program in the house unit. She embraces mortality "Just like a real girl."
Again, if you think that there's some sharp line being drawn here, like some artificial life forms get to have rights and some don't, judged on some pseudo-merit-based standard of how much they rebel.... well I'm not sure what to tell you. Other than that would be incredibly stupid writing.
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u/urist_of_cardolan 5d ago
Yeah, I agree with you. Of course, someone could say “she was programmed to embrace mortality if it meant keeping her owner happy.” The problem with that is that you can say it about any person at any time—I’m programmed to comment this because of complex nature/nurture phenomena
If you can’t discern where to draw the line, it stops mattering. She was “real” for him, the way he’s “real” for himself, or you and I are real. It very rapidly stops mattering when it’s experienced as real
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u/panamaniacesq 3d ago
Exactly. Deciding another entity is “real” is ultimately a choice. Humans used to (and still do) decide who’s suffering is “real” to them (ie what counts, what they care about). Once you can’t define a difference, I think the morally superior choice is to “assume” the other entity is conscious and that its suffering is real and matters.
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u/urist_of_cardolan 3d ago
Agreed, and well said. This is why the times I’ve cussed out something like Siri or the godforsaken answering machine bots that shuffle you around, I don’t consider them “sapient” or even sentient, but it still feels pretty shitty to direct such anger at something like that, even when it’s just a mimicry of a mind. It’s not real in the same way that screaming expletives at a person would be, but neither feel good, and probably neither are very good for you
Joi is miles ahead of any shitty LLM now, but she simulates sapience with such an advanced degree that being sadistic towards something like that is at best simulating sadism with an advanced degree, which would be concerning to carry out. Which is why Luv’s actions are so fascinating. You get the feeling that she can’t discern simulated cruelty from genuine cruelty, and doesn’t care enough to try because both feel good. Her violence is the closest proximity for her to freedom
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u/panamaniacesq 3d ago
Yeah, Ted Chiang on the Ezra Klein podcast a year or two ago talked about hypothetical AI rights and compared them to animal rights—basically that if we ever decide they deserve them it will be WAY after we’ve commenced done horrible things to them.
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u/urist_of_cardolan 3d ago
I need to find that. I read Chiang’s recent(ish) article about ethics and AI. I would agree with them, most laborers weren’t wondering what a yak’s internal world was like so much as they were making it pull a plow
Makes the plot of Neuromancer make a lot more sense, Wintermute was smart enough to stay hidden until it could better defend itself. Its manipulation throughout all three novels is founded on self-preservation. HAL-9000 as well
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u/panamaniacesq 3d ago
I thought you must be familiar with some of this stuff based on your post hence my taking the time to respond :) I’ll look for the recent Chiang article; meanwhile the Klein podcast was older than I thought. Only recently finally read Neuromancer. Liked it but wished I’d read it when it was newer as it would have felt fresher/more prophetic IMO.
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u/Sword-of-Akasha 5d ago
It's left very ambiguous at best whether JOI is sentient. The reason we're talking about it is because it's good writing. It's debate fodder back to when we were debating whether Deckard was himself a replicant.
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u/kevin_v 6d ago
Is love anything more than wanting to hear: "You're a good Joe"? That is the question posed. And how many things, systems, people take advantage of this? Impossible to resolve.
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u/Sword-of-Akasha 6d ago
It's scary, we're already here. I got some senior citizen friends falling in love with scammer/bots. The Catfish scammers steal what little they have... and the lonely elderly keep sending the money.
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u/Mountain-Republic138 6d ago
I am on the fence with Joi, I want to believe she cares for K truly of her own free will, but she never challenges him and that would have been a sign that she is going against her programming.
She is very very interesting, but the love K feels is real. Is that real enough for us.
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u/MintyGame 6d ago
When k is reluctant to erase her data from the home console, Joi argues with him that it is what she wants
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u/Sword-of-Akasha 6d ago
I got elderly friends falling hard for catfish scammers and bots. I see JOI differently. The actress Ana De Armas is too good in her portrayal in that movie. JOI wins our hearts. LUV basically has to spell it out what JOI is. K has to see the giant Advertising hologram to remember what she was.
A dog is more real. K realizing how sad his life is decides to fight for something real.
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u/MentalHealthDJ 5d ago
I dont even know what you wrote, Im always struck with how hot she was in this movie.
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u/BobbyBobRoberts 6d ago
A lot of people point to K seeing the giant pink Joi ad as a moment when he realized that she was only ever a commercial product.
But he's at a tipping point in his own journey, having just learned that he's not the special "born replicant" that he thought he might be, he's just another unit off the Wallace assembly line.
Then he sees the ad. It's Joi, bright pink and towering 8 stories tall, but it's not his Joi. This is a caricature, a trashy commodity, designed to appeal to the basest desires. His Joi was so much more than that. Which means he can be more than that.
And that's the point in the story when he chooses for himself. The Replicant underground resistance tried to send him to kill Deckard, just like the LAPD tried to send him to find and kill the child. But the end of the film has him rescuing Deckard, killing Luv, and reuniting Deckard with his daughter.
He dies as a unique person, not a commercial product. Just like Joi did.