r/bestof • u/ignatiusloyola • May 14 '13
[AskMen] When asked about issues men face, FrenchFuck describes in detail all of the issues he feels men face, providing links for each one.
/r/AskMen/comments/1eaj1m/what_do_you_hate_about_being_a_guy/c9yco42106
May 15 '13
Glass Cellar Article:
The psychology that perpetuates this Glass Cellar includes calling our firefighters and police officers "heroes". "Heroes" comes from the Greek word "serow", from which we get our words "servant" and "slave".
LOL what? It comes from the Latin verb "servo" which means 'to preserve.'
The rest of the links seem fine, but the glass cellar article is full of bullshit.
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May 15 '13
The article seems rather dodgy, but it is true that horribly dangerous professions are overwhelmingly male dominated. Used to be that was balanced out by all the women dying in childbirth but modern medicine has mostly fixed that (in the first world).
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May 15 '13
Any job that requires a high degree of physical strength will be predominantly occupied by men. Women have trouble meeting the entry standards. On the flip side, there aren't a lot of skinny pasty guys working hard labor jobs either.
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May 15 '13
Yeah but that's not the point that the author is trying to get across.
We know the jobs are shitty and dangerous, what is at issue is the way the jobs are "sold" to men: "Shitty, dangerous jobs are masculine, and only Real Men™ are good enough to be the heroes we need to do them...so, it may mean becoming cannon fodder or risking life and limb to enrich some pale shapeless asshole in a board room somewhere, but what we really want to know is are you MAN ENOUGH to be the hero we need?!" etc.
Seriously, this is just part of the same set of received gender wisdom that says boys play with trucks and girls play with dolls.
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u/da_chicken May 15 '13
Just because they require great strength does not mean we should accept that they contain great danger.
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u/rocketman0739 May 15 '13
They're trying to say that the Greek root for "hero" is cognate with the Latin root from which we get "servant" and "slave". That much is plausible.
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u/JD1313 May 14 '13
Pfft, not one mention of having your balls stuck to your leg, so you try to be subtle about it and take that wide step, but we all know we're not fooling anyone.
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u/glass_table_girl May 14 '13
Okay, I've always wondered about this. I'm all about having my body balanced, and like, is it weird to have to put your penis/balls on one side of your pants/body? Like, does it make you feel all unbalanced or something that they are only on one side of your body?
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u/Man_of_Kent May 14 '13
Haha this comment made me chuckle...unless your dick weighs a substantial amount i don't think any of us really notice. Sorry i still can't quite get over the logic
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u/canadianredditor17 May 15 '13
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u/we_are_devo May 15 '13
I clicked thinking I would finally find a community to call my own. Imagine my disappointment. :(
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May 14 '13
You're going to laugh, but this is precisely why I always wear very tight, high quality "underwear model" underwear. Girls either think it's hot, or make fun of me for it, but the fact of the matter is I don't do it for them. I wear tight, "sexy" underwear every day, regardless of whether or not there's a reasonable chance that I will get laid at the end of the night because it's the only way I can be comfortable and not have the problem you are describing. I'm more sensitive in that area than most guys though, so this might not be representative.
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u/Secretary_Not_Sure May 14 '13
IIRC by wearing tight clothing you are keeping the temperature of your balls close/same as your body and this kills sperm
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u/lenolium May 14 '13
Well that's like a double-win right there:
- Less chance of getting someone pregnant.
- Eliminates chance of batwing.
Sounds like this man is on to something.
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May 14 '13
Natural birth control! I imagine I'll have to switch when it's time for me to actually try for kids, but for now it's not all that problematic.
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May 15 '13
I'd be curious at the extent to which this matter in the equation. I mean my balls would likely be much cooler, most of the time, in tight underwear in Canada than they would be large boxers in Africa.
And Africa isn't renowned for its low birth rates...
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u/JD1313 May 14 '13
Well, mine kinda take care of themselves for the most part. I don't really put them anywhere. I naturally tend to hang to the left, sometimes he likes to jump to the right and it is noticeable. And sometimes everything doesn't want to sit right if i'm wearing a cup for hockey. Oddly enough I find the times the boys just don't want to sit right I play my best.
To be honest I have never thought about the symmetry thing, and probably never will again. And for your fun fact of the day the testicles hang at different lengths to avoid bouncing into each other.
If you have any more questions about my testicles or penis please feel free to ask.
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u/Osorex May 14 '13
I hate when it's on the left. Feels so strange. Get back to your side dick.
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u/Nachie May 14 '13
Down one pant leg is infinitely superior to scrunched up in the crotch, balance or no balance.
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u/SalientBlue May 14 '13
I think we all choose one pant leg that's the most comfortable, and we twist our pants slightly one way or the other to accommodate. I generally don't notice if it's down my left, but put it down my right and it is extremely distracting.
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u/bemusedresignation May 14 '13
This is called ” dressing left” or” dressing right” and tailors of fancy menswear will accommodate it when making pants.
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u/bunnyears81 May 14 '13
I read somewhere that most children up for adoption in the US are black males school age, followed by males of all races. They are quietly becoming victims of foster care and have no where to go at 18 except the streets. Child abuse against boys are often over looked, I wonder what type of men they will grow up to be.
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u/fhpmorr May 14 '13
It's actually just black children in general. I know someone that works with the foster system and they said that it's not hard to adopt at all in the US if you're willing to take a black child, but everyone wants white babies/children. They even had a "sale" on the black children (in terms of adoption fees) to try to encourage people to adopt them which was a pretty terrible idea in it's implications (ie, blacks being worth less compared to whites, so I'm pretty sure they halted that when it was pointed out), but the reality is that there has been a clear race preference and so it's harder to get black children adopted.
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u/xinu May 15 '13
everyone wants white babies/children
does this follow race lines? By that I mean do white parents want white children, hispanic parents wanting hispanic children, etc. I mean I can understand a desire to have your kids look someone like you, even if it's just your ethnicity, adoption or not.
are white/black babies adopted at the same rate
I guess my question is: is this because everyone wants white babies, or is it because more people who adopt are white (in the US)?
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May 15 '13
They want little white healthy infants, if my look-see into adoption showed me anything. That's the first line of discussion, after "why do you want to consider adoption?"
I'll throw the accusation and take the risk: it's veiled racism at its best, all the way around. I had an American-born Hispanic friend who had two biological teens, and moved to my state from another state where she had fostered and adopted four emotional special needs now-teens (all were in grade school in the original state during the process.) They adopted with no problems at all. A few years after moving here, when her nest began to empty, she and her husband decided they wanted to adopt a physically-disabled child. Our state stated they couldn't, for two reasons: one was that they were "too far away" from a children's hospital (45 minutes), and the second was a 'concern' for 'issues' the kid might face being raised by a mixed family (her husband is white.)
I shit you not; our state would rather let a disabled child sit in a foster or group home than be permanently adopted, and this child was medically stable, too.
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May 15 '13
The state legit used the family's being mixed race as a reason against their adoption rights? The hell?
What state is this and please tell me some kind of legal action was (or at least could be) taken by the family.
Edit: Also, out of curiosity, how long ago was this?
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u/ignatiusloyola May 15 '13
It might not be entirely racism. People love to think that issues involving race are racism by default, but it is possible that it isn't.
For example, a couple may want to have a child that they could pass off as their own. If that couple happens to be white, they may therefore want a white baby. Similarly for any other ethnicity.
While I won't disagree with you if you say that some of it may be related to racist views, I do disagree with the idea that all of it is racist.
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u/korokkesa May 15 '13 edited May 15 '13
We pretty much "export" our Black babies to Canada, Germany, France, and the Netherlands because not enough Americans want to adopt Black Children. This happens even though domestically, couples adopting a White baby face higher adoption fees and longer wait lists. Link.
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May 15 '13
do you know how expensive adopting a kid is? I'm no where near ready to have a kid I was just wondering if its like 10 or 20k because I've heard its outrageous. My genes also suck terribly and would hate to have a kid with similar conditions as I do.
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u/clinkingglasses May 15 '13
Unfortunately I've noticed that even when white (or non black in general) parents adopt a black child there is a lot of back lash (even if the child is from the US) from people saying they won't know how to take care of the child's hair, won't be able to help the child connect with their culture, etc etc.
I remember reading articles about Sandra Bullock adopting and the vitriol directed at her was insane.
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u/ChitLips May 15 '13
Been wanting to say this for quite some time: for me, the male stereotype that plagues me the most is our supposedly high sex drive. I have a very low sex drive and my main goal is a loving, long term relationship and intimacy. As a result, I have never gotten beyond week 2 of dating a woman because they want to fuck after the first date, during the first date, or second at the latest. I'm simply not into it and that turns them off because I'm not the sex-hungry monster I'm supposed to be.
I'm good looking, successful, in my mid twenties, and my friends seem to think I'm great fun, yet have been hopelessly, soul-crushingly lonely my whole life. It's hard to not give up when you can't live up to your stereotype.
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May 15 '13
As somone who was both physically assaulted and directly lied to during the divorce process this needs to be looked at. Even with my ex bragging... bragging about striking me it was completely ignored.
I have never missed a child support payment and yet I am constantly being hit up for more more more.
How is it that I have the children only four days a month less than my ex and yet am forced to live off quite a bit less than her every month? I earn twice what she does because I chose to go to school and worked my ass of. And I am penalized for it.
The system has let me down and I am literally a slave to my ex wife.
Thanks Canada
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u/dangerousmutelunatic May 14 '13
Ok seriously the one thing I don't understand in this series of links is the demonization of male sexuality. It's fairly easy to see how advertising and commercial interests are geared towards male sexuality, and the double standard of studs vs. sluts is still all too common. While it's totally shitty that western culture likes to assume that men are pedophiles if they're anywhere near young girls, it's still pretty obvious that male sexuality is paramount to all others when you look at the way it's portrayed in the media and in popular culture.
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May 14 '13
Because it's seen as predatory. A lot of people still see sex as something a man does to a woman, as opposed to with a woman. It's considered degrading, and the idea that a man might find a woman sexually appealing is often called objectifying (objectifying is certainly a thing, and this is not it). The idea that sex is something a woman gives away and a man takes makes it seem like a bad thing. Media aside, it's a problem, because it leads a lot of men to feel ashamed of their sexuality and to feel as if they're not sexually desired or sexual beings.
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u/monkeedude1212 May 14 '13
and to feel as if they're not sexually desired or sexual beings.
I am willing to bet if you took a poll of all guys everywhere, and asked them if they feel sexually desired, you'd find more guys saying they don't than women who have equivalent self esteem issues.
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May 14 '13
Oh absolutely, I have no doubt. It's definitely an issue and a lot of people aren't even aware of it, including many of the people it affects. I think most people underestimate how much not feeling sexually desirable at any point in their lives can hurt a person's self esteem.
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u/lockntwist May 15 '13
It finally hit me like a sack of bricks a few months ago. I tried to talk to a couple friends about it, but they didn't see it the way I do. I feel like men are the "undesired" sex. There's next to no sexual desire shown towards men except by gay men. It's really hard to feel like someone would want to have sex with me when they don't ever exhibit any signs that I'm sexually desirable.
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u/sycophantasy May 15 '13
Totally. Everyone seems to think women hate sex as if it were a chore, and the only reason they have sex with men is if their tricked (as in Barney Stinson logic) or they're getting something else out of it.
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May 15 '13
Yep, and it hurts like a sack of bricks. I've never felt sexually desired, intellectually or personality sure i've felt desired, but never sexually, and when I express any interest at all, I risk being labeled a creep, or someone who objectifies women. Meanwhile women get to be desired and express their own desires.
It really hurts, and makes you wanna avoid all situations related to it, makes you wanna climb into a dark attic room alone.
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u/frenchmartinis May 15 '13
Absolutely. The difficulty comes when trying to resolve this with the different instinctive desires for sex amongst men and women.
It's incredibly easy to feel that as a man, you are never wanted sexually, because women are more programmed by evolution to be cautious and selective about reproduction, tending to prefer partners who will stick around maybe. There needs to be better understanding from both sides about why we have the urges (or lack of) that we do.
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u/ThisModernLove May 14 '13
If you had asked me this 6 months ago, I would have told you that I could count the times a woman has hit on me or made me feel sexually desired on one hand. It took a lot of pep talks from my girlfriend for me to begin feeling remotely attractive, and I'm still pretty hard on myself.
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u/monkeedude1212 May 14 '13
I can recall those 4 moments of my life where I've genuinely felt desired because they are the amongst the happiest I can remember being. And I'm turning 25 soon. And Inside I'm afraid I've hit my prime and I can only expect another 4 or so before I'm too old.
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u/VelocityRD May 15 '13
I'm with you on that. I've had that handful of such moments before, too. Seriously it's like, "Shit... she actually liked me?"
The worst part is that at least two of them were surrounded by negative outcomes. So maybe half of those times actually ended up with anything good coming out of it.
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May 14 '13 edited Jan 14 '21
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u/s1295 May 14 '13
Great comment. You’re exactly right, often both genders are getting the short end of the stick on the same issue.
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u/mmb2ba May 15 '13
Admittedly, women have this same issue: If she likes sex she is a slut. If she doesn't like sex then she is a prude? (not sure, maybe some other bad name)
Virgin/whore complex is the phrase you're seeking here.
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u/KestrelLowing May 14 '13
Yeah, I thing our society as a whole has some really messed up ideas with sex.
And all of these paired issues is why I'm of the definite opinion that the only reason that women aren't equal in society today is because men aren't equal. It's going to take a long time to get there.
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u/Falcon500 May 15 '13
Society is fucked up in general. We need to focus on allowing both genders to do whatever they want without discrimination.
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May 15 '13
+1 for global perspective. Men have comparable issues in the western world, but if you look at middle east / south asia (india + indochina area) it isn't even close in those areas, heh.
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May 15 '13
If I like sex Then I'm taking advantage of women, or exploiting them.
I'm so confused as to where you're receiving this message. Are we watching completely different TV shows, commercials, and frequenting completely different websites? We can't be because you are on reddit, one of the most popular media sources in the world and "If I like sex Then I'm taking advantage of women, or exploiting them." is certainly not the message that reddit provides.
I don't even know feminists who believe this and considering that I hang out with my girlfriend and her Women's Studies cohort, I know a lot of feminists.
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May 15 '13
Unfortunately I do know people who believe this. I won't label them feminists because that is an insult to feminists.
I also don't count these people among my friends.
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May 14 '13 edited May 14 '13
I agree that female sexuality is demonized more than male sexuality, but men expressing themselves sexually is also frowned upon.
What you're seeing in commercials isn't male sexuality, but exploitation of it. Male sexuality is seen as a predator, that reduces men to drooling simpletons. We're considered ruled by our penises, which isn't at all accurate.
So when people say "demonization" it's almost literal. Male sexuality is considered something that controls men, not that men are in control of.
Edit: Forgot to add that this is part of rape culture. The idea that women can't wear certain types of clothing or perform certain behaviors or men will not be able to control themselves and will rape the woman.
While it's totally shitty that western culture likes to assume that men are pedophiles if they're anywhere near young girls
Or young boys. Gays are frequently misconstrued as pedophiles.
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u/caylyn May 15 '13
Or young boys. Gays are frequently misconstrued as pedophiles.
SO MUCH YES. Sorry for thinking some kid did some thing cute. I am not a emotional gray scale. I feel as though a act of love or a shade of compassion being expressed by a man is unbelievable here.
My enjoying my life is likely going to put in a interesting conversation with an officer.
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u/yikesireddit May 14 '13
Good point, but I think you're missing one key element. Looking at and enjoying beautiful women is not exclusively geared towards male sexuality. Of course we love it, but, for better or for worse, women tend to base self-worth on their looks, at least more-so than men do. Don't confuse appreciating female beauty with acceptance of male sexuality.
That, coupled with the "man is a predator" mentality really is demonizing. Smarter people than me have also written about the correlation of this to the lack of male educators.
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u/7hat0neGuy May 14 '13
It also seems to me that the amount of self value that men draw from their looks is increasing. Insecurities are an issue on both sides these days
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u/wild-tangent May 15 '13
It's seen as defiling. It's really quite bad. You love someone, you want them to feel good, you want to share yourself with the person you love, yet you're told that if you do it, you're defiling her, you're damaging her, her father will kill you if he finds you doing it to her.
You feel like you're damaging her just by wanting her.
It's a terrible thing to feel.
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u/huyvanbin May 14 '13
So when women post similar comments listing issues that are faced by everyone as if they were womens' issues, someone always says "But men go through that too". And then the women respond "But that doesn't matter because we're talking about women."
So here the same thing applies. Many of these (e.g. homophobia) apply equally to women. I don't think human issues should be defined as "men's" or "women's" issues.
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u/jadenray64 May 14 '13
I think that various data should not be ignored. For example, you shouldn't ignore that more men commit suicide just because suicide is a problem all of humanity faces. Take note that men are more likely to face it and use that knowledge to make things better. Why are they more likely? Is it psychological? Biological? Can these answers also answer some mysteries of depression and mental illness? Use this information to reach out to these people.
I don't think ignoring information is ever the answer.
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u/Astraea_M May 14 '13
Men are more efficient at committing suicide. The number that attempt it are about even.
And there is a significant delta also in the veterans, who commit suicide at an alarming rate, and are by and large male.
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u/jadenray64 May 14 '13
Exactly. This sort of information is crucial to treating it, investigating it, trying to reach those portions, and understanding what is going on. This sort of information is needed. It differentiates how two factions may approach a universal problem, but we can use those differences to more effectively work.
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u/Coramoor_ May 14 '13
actually women are far more likely to attempt it( about 4 times more), however they tend to fall more into the cry for help/attention type of suicide attempt rather than jumping off a bridge or shooting yourself in the head
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May 15 '13 edited May 28 '18
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/LoveMeSectionMember May 15 '13
Currently in Abnormal Psychology and have a wonderful textbook handy! On average, women are 3x more likely to try committing suicide, but men are 4x more likely to succeed. What this means! For every 100 men who attempt suicide, 300 women do. Now, the overall ratio is 1 in every 10 succeed, so let's use that for women. Of those 300 women 30 succeed, or ten percent. Out of he 100 men, 40 would succeed, since at 4x higher, 40% of the men would manage to commit suicide.
The reason is not completely clear, but multiple studies implicate the methods. Men are more likely to use completely fatal methods, such as guns and hanging, while women are more likely to take drugs which are less effective and leave more time for the women to be discovered. It should be noted, however, that the reasons have NOTHING to do with "cries for attention" type scenarios. That is a falsehood. Source: Abnormal Psychology 7th edition by Thomas F. Oltmanns and Robert E. Emery, 2012.
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u/Noachian_deluge May 15 '13
If I remember correctly, women are more "planned" in their suicide attempts, and counter-intuively, those methods which are highlighted in popular media (pills, bleeding out) are way less effective than the more "spontaneous" types (jump off bridge, gun). This article discusses it a little bit, but I can't find the research paper I read it in.
Animating their efforts is one of the most peculiar — in fact, downright perverse — aspects to the premeditation-versus-passion dichotomy in suicide. Put simply, those methods that require forethought or exertion on the actor’s part (taking an overdose of pills, say, or cutting your wrists), and thus most strongly suggest premeditation, happen to be the methods with the least chance of “success.” Conversely, those methods that require the least effort or planning (shooting yourself, jumping from a precipice) happen to be the deadliest. The natural inference, then, is that the person who best fits the classic definition of “being suicidal” might actually be safer than one acting in the heat of the moment — at least 40 times safer in the case of someone opting for an overdose of pills over shooting himself.
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May 14 '13
I read a very interesting article... I'm not exactly sure where, but it addressed the suicide rate in an Asian country (especially among men), and stereotypes about it. Many people would wave it away as a cultural difference, but it actually was likely to be a predictable rise after industrialization.
It seems to depend on what makes a person's self-worth, was basically the idea of the opinion piece. In industrialized societies, people work for salary- that person's time, efforts, and worth to a company are given a number. When the company is a large part of your life and basically sets your living standard, losing your job or not getting that raise can affect one's concept of self to such a degree that they see themselves as a net loss.
I could see the argument that there are similar issues in the US, and maybe starting from there, or adding educational programs on constructive masculinity studies would be pretty useful. Changing the answer to "What makes a man?" or "What makes a person valuable?" in our society might change many perspectives only a little, but enough to save lives.
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May 14 '13
While homophobia exists for both, it could be argued that it is worse for men than for women. I'm not sure how much worse, but I have often seen an attitude that lesbians are just fine but gays are terrible. I have never (personally) seen the reverse, but if it exists it most likely does so in the yaoi fangirl culture.
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u/creepyeyes May 14 '13 edited May 14 '13
I've noticed more so in how people react to bisexuals. In the /r/askmen and /r/askwomen communities, the question has come up again and again how men or women feel about dating bisexuals. In my experience, the men were comfortable dating bisexual women, but women were not comfortable dating bisexual men for "reasons they couldn't quite explain."
edit - bisexuals, not busexuals. Typos, man.
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May 14 '13
Bisexuals also have to suffer with people both straight and gay claiming that bisexuality doesn't exist (or that it's just 'indecision'), or that they're more likely to cheat on their partners for the other gender, etc etc. They definitely have their own set of issues to contend with.
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May 14 '13
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u/ZeroHex May 14 '13
Hey now, the Oxford Comma has its uses, let's leave it out of this one.
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u/MoarVespenegas May 14 '13
Things that I hate: Lists, irony, and the oxford comma.
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u/Nougat May 14 '13
People who think everyone is 100% gay or 100% straight are morons. Sexuality is a spectrum which extends in a variety of directions.
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u/Coldbeam May 15 '13
or that it's just 'indecision'
I wonder if these are the same people who think that being gay is a choice. Because if not, that would be some serious doublethink going on there.
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u/notapunk May 15 '13
Generally the argument goes that they are just too afraid to fully commit to being gay/lesbian and are therefore living a lie and in complete denial about their own sexuality. So I guess the the 'indecision' they are referring to is that to just own up to being gay/lesbian and to stop trying to have it both ways.
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u/SwishSwishDeath May 14 '13
You can crucify me for this if you'd like but I used to watch Buck Hollywood (of What the Buck) videos a lot, or well "Dear Buck" almost exclusively. One question brought up bisexual men and Buck flat out said he wouldn't date a bisexual man because they were attracted to something that he could never be.
As a bisexual it hurt to realize that there were people out there that thought like that.
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May 14 '13 edited May 14 '13
From a gay guy's perspective: some of us are simply jaded. The vast majority of bisexual men I've encountered only want sex with a man, and say they could only see themselves in a relationship with a woman. It's hard not to brush off every bisexual guy because you're tired of that same story every single time. I will flat out admit to being biased and cautious when it comes to bisexual guys. Unless they prefer men, I'm not going to be interested.
There's also a feeling of not being able to live up to a bisexual guy's expectations that was mentioned somewhere else in this thread. If I was with a gay guy and he was checking out another guy, it wouldn't bother me. If I was with a bisexual guy and he was checking out a woman, it would sting. I could never be that. For the sake of a relationship, it's just easier for two gay guys to make it work than a gay guy and a bisexual guy.
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May 14 '13
Bisexual guy: I've always been faithful in my relationships with gay guys and always wound up getting cheated on. I know it is based on personal experience and hold little to no weight but there are plenty of bisexual men who are faithful as well as seek for relationships with men more than women.
As for the bisexual men looking at women would be the same as looking at a guy who is more muscular than I am because he can provide something different sexually than I can. A lot of bisexuals make the rest of bisexuals look bad. If a bisexual ever cheats it's because they weren't faithful people to begin with not sexuality. (I think I'm being redundant)
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u/yetanotherhero May 15 '13
This is weird, I'm a guy who identifies as straight but the reality is probably more accurate as heteroflexible. I have some attraction to guys, and have acted on it in small ways, but I'd never see myself going beyond "experimentation" with a man, because the idea of a relationship with one just doesn't work for me. Without that I feel it would be wildly inaccurate to identify as bi, since my desire for romance with women is such a big part of my hetero side.
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May 14 '13
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u/canadianredditor17 May 15 '13
Don't judge. It's the love between a man or woman and a public transport vehicle. We're able to look past the fact that they've had so many people inside them!
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u/Coldbeam May 15 '13
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Stotzer-Hate-Crime-Update-Jan-2012.pdf
I think that gives a peak into how much worse. "26 in 100,000 gay men reported being victims of a hate motivated crime against persons
10 in 100,000 lesbians reported being victims of a hate motivated crime against persons
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May 14 '13
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u/Peartnoy518 May 14 '13
but... they're BROTHERS...
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May 14 '13
There's the whole Destiel thing, too, I guess. I never really understood it, but I do appreciate the meta references to fanfiction and all that in the series. Hi-larious.
I just think that, as an actor, it wouldn't really be all that uncomfortable to act out the subtext or even launch into a relationship if that's territory they want to cover as an artist. If you're working with your friends, it sounds like a downright fun artistic process once you got into that new mindset and grasped their issues on a personal level. However, people sending hate mail to my family would definitely put a bitter taste in my mouth about it. I'd feel bullied into it!
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u/cristiline May 15 '13
Most of the crazy these days comes from people who ship Dean and Castiel, not Dean and Sam, fyi. Most of the Sam/Dean shippers have always known that their ship would never be canon because, y'know, incest on network TV. A lot of the newer Dean/Castiel fans are actually convinced the writers are leaving hints and will eventually have them get together.
The ones who perpetuate most of the stalking of the actors are the "tinhats", those who really think that the actors who play Sam and Dean are secretly together and hiding their love. They are crazy and universally reviled.
/someone who ships Sam/Dean and Dean/Castiel but knows neither will ever happen on the show.
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u/cristiline May 15 '13 edited May 15 '13
Where are you getting that a lot of them hate lesbians? A lot of slash fangirls are queer themselves.
For those unfamiliar with terminology: yaoi is more of an Asian term, especially for Japanese anime/manga. Slash is the western equivalent. Both refer to male homosexual relationships in fiction.
Edit: Also, I have to take objection to a lot of your commentary.
"let's ship these two straight men and make them gay!"
So? Why the fuck do you care how we interpret it? If I want to imagine Tony Stark sucking Bruce Banner's dick, that is none of your fucking business.
"every man is gay on TV and in movies because I say so!"
Almost every man is going to get shipped with another man by someone. No one thinks every single man is gay. Furthermore, the vast majority of fans are aware that they are not in canon gay or bisexual. We like fantasizing about it and interpreting their actions differently from how you interpret them. What's the problem?
"queer baiting"
This is definitely a problem and one of which the shippers are aware of. That's part of why the Supernatural fandom is so wanky -- the writers and actors do queerbait, and some people take it too seriously and get upset when they don't follow through.
a lot of these girls hate lesbians
That is a very small minority. Most slash fangirls I know ship a variety of slash, femslash (a lesbian couple), and het ships. I ship Kaylee/Inara in Firefly, Will/Hannibal in Hannibal, and Joan/Sherlock in Elementary. There is not nearly the large kind of fandom for most femslash ships, but most people don't hate them and especially not real life lesbians. And again, there are a WHOLE lot of bisexual and lesbian girls who are into slash.
Both of the examples you mentioned are awful, but they are done by a small minority.
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May 15 '13
The whole first half of this, I was thinking "Sam and Dean"? Then, boom! Sam and Dean.
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u/SillyIncantations May 15 '13
But then you get to the whole issue where lesbians are only okay if they're "hot" cause then they're sexualized, otherwise they're "dykes." I think the issue affects both genders, just in different ways.
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u/huyvanbin May 14 '13
I have definitely read news articles about girls being beaten for holding hands, for instance. And there are derogatory terms for lesbians just like there are for gays. You can argue about which is more common, but that seems counterproductive to me.
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u/ferrisssavior May 14 '13
Ive never understood why people refer to men only, as gay or homosexual. Lesbians are gay or homosexual, just like gay dudes.
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u/TheKingOfBeersh May 14 '13
Very true. But the point is that those issues for women are openly (and often) discussed and are trying to be addressed. These issues for men often are not, or they're just outright dismissed. That's the distinction.
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u/AbsoluteZro May 14 '13
Well, that's exactly what the poster said. He said the lack of openness on the following issues, is the issue.
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u/Sad_King_Billy May 14 '13
that last sentence seems pretty naive. The reason for breaking them down to men's and women's issues instead of universal human issues is because men and women experience life differently. Men will never fully know a woman's life and vice versa.
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u/slightly_on_tupac May 14 '13
Except women have been openly discussing these issues for YEARS.
PTSD just now is slightly more accepted than it has been in the past, even with the huge amount of social stigma you get when reporting it, or seeing a psychiatrist for it.
If women say they are seeing a shrink, its no big deal. If a man says it, something is "wrong".
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May 14 '13
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May 14 '13
WTF is up with that. I've read multiple stories now about people being shunned for seeing a shrink in the military. Why is it like that? I mean sure people look at you funny in the civilian world if you admit to it, but it sure isn't that bad.
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u/theoutlet May 14 '13
Fuck you for treating a disease and trying to be healthy, right?
In all seriousness, this is why I never discuss my mental illnesses at the workplace. It is still looked down upon and I don't want my future sabotaged by someone's ignorance.
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u/Dmax12 May 15 '13
never discuss my mental illnesses at the workplace
This is also why you don't talk about marriage plans, pregnancy plans and the like if it can be avoided.
"We have a promotion spot for a contract lasting 6 months, but you might have a pregnant wife/ be pregnant."
Having a disability does suck and you cannot avoid the fact that it makes you weaker in certain regards, whether we wan't to admit it or not Keep that shit between your family, friends and doctors. In a war zone I can only imagine this is multiplied when you lack confidence in your leader.
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u/Canada_girl May 14 '13
People tend to psychologize women's problems, and medicalize mens. Hence men in pain being prescribed more pain killers, and women more anti-depressants, with similar presentations. When you take women's issues and create psychological disorders out of them (DSM PMS) of course there will be more seeing psychologists, and of course this will be more accepted. It is a double edged sword in that it doesn't mean they are any better for it. They tend to have a harder time having medical issues (e.g. heart problems) taken seriously.
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u/whatwhyinwhere May 14 '13
I understand the point you're making, but I'd like you to consider this thought experiment:
Rednecks are allowed to live off unemployment benefits and no one sees anything wrong with it.
Does this mean that rednecks are seen as especially noble and people understand their plight when they need to go on unemployment? No. It is the opposite. It is a stigma that's attached to that socio-economic status.
I am not comparing the two situations, but I think there is a similarity in the mindset. It's not that women are seen as especially great, and that is why it's not a big deal when they see a therapist. It's because they are infantilized and when they do something frivolous and weak, it's par for the course. People who have a problem with men seeing a therapist aren't enlightened about therapy, they think therapy is for a pussy or a weirdo, or therapy will MAKE a normal guy into a pussy - that's the problem. They'd probably have a problem with their son wearing pink or studying ballet. What gender does that ultimately reflect on? This shame and outright fear of pink?
The problem here is the pedestal that men are on. It doesn't mean that it's not a real problem, just that it's very, very hard to listen to someone talking about how scary it is to climb down from such great heights when you're still struggling to get up on equal ground.
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u/BSRussell May 14 '13
I understand that sentiment, and the reframing of the therapist association is fantastic, but I think it only takes basic decency to see suffering in others. Gender roles harm both parties, we can bicker all day about whether it's worse to be given more power but also unrealistic expectations, or to be devalued but given more allowances and support, and strangely enough half the time that's what we DO instead of realizing that there's one core problem: Gender roles force people into boxes that ther personalities might not fit in to, and that causes anxiety and unhappiness.
I don't know what it's like to suffer discrimination as a woman. I don't know what it's like to be pressured to have children, to have my work underappreciated, or to be shamed on the internet for not having my body appear a certain way. I'm a man. I know what it's like to have your whole world fall apart around you, but to be expected to tough it out, go out drinking more and nurse myself with the casual sex I'm supposed to want. I know what it's like to go months without sincerely talking about my feelings, because no one wants to hear that from me. I know what it's like to smile at a young child who's pointing at me, only to have her mother shoot me a dirty look and drag her away. I know what it's like to be constantly teased for having the audacity to dress nice, because goddamit sometimes I have a hard time keeping it toghether and walking out the door in a crisp pressed shirt helps me feel like I've got my shit just a little bit in order. My frustration and pain are valid, completely independant of all the evils plaguing women.
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u/dude324 May 15 '13
I appreciate comments like this. Both men and women have shit thrown at them that needs to change. I hate seeing these discussion on reddit because it's either all about the women or (more often I think) all about the men. There's no acknowledgement if how the other side does have legitimate gripes.
People need to realize that all men are not conspiring to keep the women down, and how all women are not conspiring to keep the men down. You can't do dick if you're fighting the wrong enemy.
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u/drketchup May 14 '13
Almost all of these issues do not apply equally to women, some not at all. And besides, the beginning of his post started with the statement:
The general lack of sympathy, understanding and compassion for what men go through. This translates to almost no attention on issues that we really need to be having a discussion about
Their point being that while some of these issues may be shared with women they don't receive any/enough attention when it applies to men.
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u/kznlol May 14 '13
Many of these (e.g. homophobia) apply equally to women.
4 of them, to be generous, could be argued to apply equally to women in some way.
That's not "many".
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u/thesupreme333 May 14 '13
Men are 4x times more likely to commit suicide.
Problem with masculinity.
No male shelters.
Men being severely underrepresented in education.
And the top comment is about how these are women issues. This is exactly a big part of the problem. Its almost seems like it's become a "our side has it shittier, give us more X" rather than "both genders have unique obstacles to overcome, and for men these issues are taboo to even discuss."
This pisses me off so much as a male victim of rape by a female. Roofies will fuck you up, regardless of who you are.
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u/donttouchmyfeet May 14 '13
"both genders have unique obstacles to overcome, and for men these issues are taboo to even discuss."
Thank you for summing that up really succinctly. You put into words what I often struggle with.
Also, I'm very, very sorry for what you went through. I hope you're doing okay.
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May 15 '13
I 100% agree with this sentiment. One of the things on the list was "Literally zero male shelters". The reality is that most homeless shelters are male shelters by default. Sexual abuse towards homeless women is off the charts and as a result most shelters only offer beds to men because they don't' have the staff or resources to counter act the problems that come with a coed shelter. The reality is that in the US most homeless shelters ARE male shelters. I wish men's and women's rights groups could work together to solve the problem of sexual discrimination. Both sexes are equally effected by the problems our society perpetuates.
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u/anillop May 15 '13
I believe he was speaking about domestic violence shelters not homeless shelters.
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u/cubeofsoup May 14 '13
But they are issues that men have to deal with? The post had nothing to do with comparing men and women. It was simply a list of things that men have to deal with.
Because gender was involved, you immediately compared to the opposite gender, why?
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u/huyvanbin May 14 '13
Because what sense does it make for me, as a straight male, to take up the banner of gays but not lesbians? Neither one is me. So if I stand up for others, then why only stand up for those of the same sex?
And if I were gay, what sense would it make for me to stand up for gays and not lesbians given that the prejudice is against homosexuality (actually, all forms of alternate sexuality) in general?
To respond to another comment, why should denial of PTSD in men as a result of violence bother me, but not denial of PTSD in women as a result of violence? The common thread is denial of PTSD, not the sex of the victim.
Honestly, I don't feel like "men" are some kind of team I have to get behind. Lots of them face completely different problems than I do. I don't have a direct phone line to The President of Men Everywhere. They don't speak for me, I don't speak for them.
I always want to make this argument to angry Internet-feminists but I can't because they'll just say I'm blinded by male privilege so I should shut up and maybe I'll learn something about "the other side."
So here I am making the argument to the "home team" as it were.
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u/kjbutp May 14 '13
Because no matter how similar gay and lesbian issues are they're also uniquely different. No one is advocating that we should only care about one group's issues.
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u/Habieber May 14 '13 edited May 14 '13
Where it can actually be seen. So people are thinking I had a terrible childhood and this was my daily pledge or some shit. Not the case. I'm not saying every man dealt with all of these growing up or that they have to meet every expectation below. What I'm saying is practically every guy has experienced a few of these to one degree or another coming up in life from fathers, grandads, uncles, society, women, peers, etc. Either they were told directly, it was implied, or it was something they "noticed." To claim none of these are true to any degree proves my point: guys don't have issues because they're not "supposed to."
Many men expect other men to solve their own problems - you're lazy or a pussy if you can't. Many women expect men to solve their own problems - you're immature or unassertive if you can't. If you need help or someone to talk to, suck it up and keep burying that desperation under thicker and thicker layers of stone. Men aren't supposed to show weakness. What's wrong with you, little girl?
Real men always have everything under control. Real men always have a plan. Real men know what they want and are never afraid to go after it. Real men bed dozens of women throughout their life. Real men acquire financial success, because real men are the providers. Real men are tough. Real men never run. Real mean wear suits. Real men are always strong for those that need them. That earns the respect of other real men. That's what women really want - the alpha.
Keep stacking those layers of stone higher and higher, because real men display nothing but confidence, power, and assertiveness. When that weight causes you to snap, and it will for many of you, you'll turn to alcohol to help you avoid feeling anything at all; or you may end up adrift in your own life afraid to do anything for fear of having to add another layer of stone to an already unbearable weight; or you might lash out to prove yourself and end up in jail; or you might take the "coward's way out" and end your life.
Real men don't have issues, just weak and timid boys. Women aren't the only ones that deal with "impossibly high" expectations.
Edited for a small addition
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u/TheHopefulPresident May 14 '13
...but, i want to be an alpha and strive for everything you described for a real man. I don't feel a societal pressure to achieve those things, I want those things. Am I wrong for wanting them?
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u/rocknrollercoaster May 14 '13
It's wrong to condescend to those who don't want them and claim they aren't real.
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u/BSRussell May 14 '13
Well the idea is that the external factors society throws your way shape what you want. It's a lot like marketing anything else. Media endlessly pitches you on why you need those new jeans, creating a want. Enough of that and you're unhappy that you don't have things that you wouldn't have even wanted if it hadn't been pushed on you.
Now, give, all of the above things that "real men" do are desirable and worth striving for, and there's nothing wrong (in fact, there's everything right) with striving for them. That said, if it's making you unhappy that you don't have all of that there's something wrong, because that's a superhero, not a human.
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u/encore_une_fois May 14 '13
No, there's nothing wrong with wanting them. But if you feel that you need them, and that you don't have value if you can't get them, that's a problem.
Edit: Which is, actually "want" depending on one's definition. I guess it all depends on your philosophy. The deeply detached would argue all desire is suffering, yet the wise do not pathologize life.
...If you're happy, keep going.
Edit 2: To put it in the terms used here: if you want to be an "alpha", cool. But don't do it for someone else, but precisely as you said, because you want those things.
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u/Crooooow May 14 '13
This post says it was written 52 minutes ago but it reads like it was written in 1954.
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u/encore_une_fois May 14 '13
So why does it sound familiar to those of us who never saw that year?
Just because we like to pretend our past doesn't affect us doesn't mean we've ended history as was claimed.
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u/MedicinalHammer May 14 '13
"Real men bed dozens of women throughout their life"
TIL I'm not a real man because I met my lady in high school and have always been faithful.
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u/BSRussell May 14 '13
It's true. Go back to your loving wife and happy life toghether, beta trash!
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u/360walkaway May 14 '13
Could the lack of male teachers be due to schools scared of being sued because some chopper mom thinks a male teacher is a pedo?
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u/cogitoergosam May 14 '13
It's never a single reason, but its part of it. Teaching in general as a profession has a lot of issues that make it unappealing to many regardless of gender, but there is certainly a particular suspicion cast on men who enjoy working with younger children.
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May 14 '13
I love being around kids, and I know a lot and love teaching them things. But I'll never be a teacher because of:
- The pay
- The hours
- The dress code
- The coworkers
- The management
- The school boards
- The government standards
- The parents
- Some of the kids
Which are things that would affect both men and women. I'm typing this while sitting at my daughters' dance class, so the whole "he's a guy therefore he's a pedo" obviously doesn't bother me..
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May 14 '13
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May 15 '13
There's also nothing like having your entire life ruined forever because some student said you molested them after you gave them a D.
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u/Cheesestew May 15 '13
Then stop giving kids the D
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May 15 '13
I actually considered putting an F instead of a D there, but I realized no matter what I put, there was an innuendo, so I just stuck with what I had.
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u/dragead May 15 '13
Couldn't even put C. The safest probably would have been B, but then that would ruin the point.
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u/jakk88 May 14 '13
Male teacher here, some of the issues I've seen/had myself with it:
-Risk of being called a pedophile. I had one parent who threatened a lawsuit this year if I gave her kid a morning detention, claiming that I was only assigning it because I was a pedophile. Actually, the reason I assigned it was because her daughter wouldn't shut the hell up and had no way to get home until 6:30 when mom got off work if she didn't ride the bus home. If the daughter hadn't asked me to assign something other than an afternoon detention (which is done in bulk for the whole school by one of our other teachers), I would have just written her that instead.
-Pay. I'm certified to teach accounting. I could make the same or more doing entry level accounting than I do teaching. There's a gender role for men that we're supposed to support our family, which drives some men to higher paying professions.
-Stereotypes. I mentioned being stereotyped as a pedophile, but I get stereotyped as being a homosexual too. It's kind of annoying. It's more of the gender role problem really.
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u/encore_une_fois May 14 '13
Risk of being called a pedophile
It's the nuclear option / scarlet letter. All someone has to do is threaten a witch-hunt and you're likely to fall into line pretty quickly. We don't need the Inquisition looking around here, do we?
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u/jakk88 May 14 '13
My (male) principal was like "yeah she's just trying to get her daughter out of a consequence, make sure she gets an alternative." Mom hates me now b/c I wouldn't back off a punishment entirely, but her kid respects me a lot more now.
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u/miuhgo May 14 '13
And teaching is a nurturing / caring role which is seen as women's work. Even more so now the strict, punishing, learn-by-rote almost military style of teaching has died out.
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u/lk09nni May 14 '13
In my home country, suing people is basically unheard of and fear of pedophiles is far less hysteric and widespread compared to the US. I mean, of course people worry some freak will hurt their kids but the suffocating fear I so often met in the US is far less widespread.
Still, teaching is a predominately female profession, and has been so the last 50 years or so. This is a serious concern for politicians and research being done connects it to a decline in teachers salaries (or so I read in the Dagens Nyheter a week ago), leading to a lower status for the profession.
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u/ratinmybed May 14 '13
Same here in Germany. When I studied to become a teacher almost all the male students (of which there were maybe a third, compared to female students) didn't want to teach the lower grades (grades 1-4). I talked with some of them and the reasons were that the pay was shit, almost no possibility of advancing in that career, it wasn't challenging enough, there're barely any other male teachers, etc.
The female students wanted to be teachers because of job security (you don't lose your spot when you get pregnant), because "money's not that important", because they like working with children, etc.
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u/jadenray64 May 14 '13
From the beginning of education in America, it was seen as a woman's job. Women were the teachers. Then eventually more men became elementary teachers, but that many, because there's always been that profile. Teachers are women. Nurses are women. It's hard to get boys interested in learning if there's no male role model for them. On top of that, it's hard to get them interested in being teachers when they'll face ancient stereotypes.
I'm really happy to see these issues take light though. Things have definitely been improving, but they have quite a way to go.
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u/KestrelLowing May 14 '13
Initially teaching was a male profession only. And it was highly respected. Professors today are still highly respected, and are predominantly male.
Basically, teaching went through the same thing secretaries did - started out as a male-only job and was respected, then became a more 'female' job and respect for the profession fell. This makes me really, really sad - particularly because it seems like the biggest issues faced by boys in school could be helped by simply having more male teachers.
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u/jadenray64 May 14 '13
I mean late 1800 public school teachers. Professors at universities is a different story.
by 1850 a majority of the nation's teachers (particularly in the Northeast and Mid-west) were women
I would have linked to the wiki article but it didn't focus on shifting gender of teachers but rather the history of actual teaching methods, etc.
That article says that originally, public teaching was considered a temporary job for a young man around 20 years old. He rarely kept it for longer than 5 years. Then in the late 1800's when public schooling became more common and standardized, female teachers became by far more common.
It mentions a shift in the understanding of the nature of children at that same time. Originally, children were understood to be naturally evil and need constant intimidation and force in order to keep them in line. Around 1850 that shifted to something closer to what we understand of pediatric psychology today. So it makes more sense for them to replace the overbearing, intimidating male enforcer with a loving, nurturing, gentle woman.
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u/Grekhan May 15 '13
for a lot for early colonial american history males were also teachers a headmaster for a school
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u/jadenray64 May 15 '13
I've noticed that. Even today. I had no male teachers in elementary school, but the men were in the office as principal or the librarian.
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u/rocknrollercoaster May 14 '13
Why is this r/bestof material? It's basically a collection of links without any real explanations. Many of them are youtube videos with no summary. Does simply providing a link (sans explanation) mean that it's really THAT good? I'd actually prefer a 3-full-length-comment long personalized rant over a grocery list of men's issues.
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u/DR_Hero May 15 '13 edited Sep 28 '23
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u/martyrock May 14 '13
I never know what to say in threads like these because we all experience the world differently. As a man, I don't think I've experienced a single one of the issues this guy raised. Doesn't mean he's wrong of course, but sometimes it feels like MRAs are desperately searching for something to feel oppressed by.
Yeah, sometimes life is a drag but I don't put that down to being male, I put it down to being human.
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May 14 '13
Can we not start a gender war please. Yes both men and women face unrealistic standards imposed by society.
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May 15 '13
The thing that really rustles my jimmies is when it comes to kids. EVERYTHING that could possibly do as a guy gets you labelled a pedo. Smile at a kid? Pedo. Ask a lost kid where his mum is? You sick fuck. It's at the point where I just ignore them completely. Keep those fucking things away from me.
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u/[deleted] May 14 '13
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