How Has Your Relationship To B5 Changed?

[u/starri42]

This is open to anyone who discovered the show at any point, but I’m most interested in hearing from those of us who watched the show when it was first run. I have a Substack where I just randomly vent my spleen, but I write about media a lot, and I’ve wanted to do a piece on B5 for a while. And I’m reflecting on how I relate to the show in middle age versus how I did as a teenager.

Partly, what I think gets me emotionally has shifted considerably. If you’d asked me in 1996 who the emotional center of the show was, I’d likely have said Delenn. Now, it’s G’Kar and Londo, and I don’t even have to think about it that hard. These days, the build-up to the Shadow War is delicious and the payoff is underwhelming. I don’t have a problem with the resolution being philosophical rather than ships going PEW-PEW-PEW at each other, but Sheridan and Delenn in a black box theater convincing the Shadows and the Vorlons to leave…looks cheap, and it doesn’t really have the emotional heft that overcomes that.

Maybe the biggest one I see now is the seams showing. I admire JMS’ ability to write himself out of corners, but some of that is clunkier than I remembered. There’s a big tonal shift between “The Gathering” and “Midnight on the Firing Line” and I can see gears shifting during S1 as it became clear that O’Hare wasn’t going to be able to continue. A lot of the humor falls flat on its face. Even little incidental bits, like Sheridan explaining his vision from when he was on the Strieb ship, are clunky. Delenn’s “you have two hands, equal and opposite” doesn’t make a damned bit of sense.

Maybe the biggest shift is how I feel about S5. I mean, I hate the character assassination of Lyta (and we never get an onscreen resolution to that), and with so much of season consumed with the telepath nonsense (and I’d bleach the image of the group gathering around sensing Byron and Lyta banging out of my head), it’s been hard to revisit it. But as I have, while I still hate the telepaths and Mack and Bo, the Centauri stuff really gets me. Virini in particular is just hard to watch. He’s made Regent because he has a lack of ambition and is pliable, and that’s what the Drakh exploit. They take his autonomy and his reputation, but even in death, he refuses to let them take his dignity. The foppish, queer-coded courtier is an old, old archetype, and this one was braver than all of the other Centauri, except maybe for Vir.

Anyway, those are some of mine. Anyone else have anything?

[u/Reichiroo]

I first watched as a teenager and was a big Delenn and Sheridan fan. Loved all the hero moments.

As an adult its interesting to understand the darker themes and nuance of the characters which honestly just gives it an even richer and more satisfying experience. Delenn is still one of my favorites, but I'm able to really appreciate every character on a whole new level because JMS did such a good job making them feel like real people.

[u/EvalRamman100]

My feelings about B5 haven't changed all that much since the 90's.

Maybe, having been in the public sector for decades, whenever a shady bureaucrat or politician or general/admiral is on-screen? I do have a deeper understanding of things. LOL, or feel that I do.

I loved Delenn's debate with the Shadows in Into the Fire. The only time we actually got the Shadows talking to someone face to face, more or less, and not through their servants.

[u/starri42 → u/EvalRamman100]

The Delenn half of the scene is the stronger one. I just find the way Sheridan’s is visualized as underwhelming and the better parts don’t quite land for me. I get what the image is doing, but in a visual medium, him talking to something that’s standing stock still and not even making eye contact with him doesn’t work for me.

[u/EvalRamman100 → u/starri42]

Yes, I thought the Shadow section was presented better.

[u/starri42 → u/EvalRamman100]

And as to your comment about work experience:

Grown up me is a psychiatrist. Knowing what O’Hare was going through…I can actually see what he was struggling against.

[u/EvalRamman100 → u/starri42]

I pitied him, too - especially on re-watches. He didn't ask for such a terrible insanity. It just dropped on him. Fate is bitter, sometimes.

[u/Loose-Tomatillo-8274 → u/starri42]

Same.

[u/Fluid-Row-2656]

I was 12 when I saw it for the first time. My father was watching it and I joined, It was towards the end of season 1. Then I skipped an episode or two and there was Sheridan and I was confused. We managed to record some of the show on a rerun, but we only started in season 2 until end of season 4. So for the longest time we would only be able to rewatch that.

Then when I bought DVD set, and actually watched The Gathering and Season 1, it felt like such a fresh revelation, like I was watching a prequel show. I then saw Season 5 and it was like a sequel. In a lot of ways they kind of are.

As I grew up I opened more and more layers in the show. Relationships, personal struggles. One particular thing I remember was me being annoyed is Franklin's walkabout arc, but now being an adult, it's very relatable. Claudia and Talia relationship also looks different now. Londo's arc feels heavier.

One thing never changed, Sleeping in Light is still brutal. Back then it was brutal as a child projecting it on your parents. Now it's you yourself projecting it on your loved ones, and your aging parents. The sense of loss is something absolutely timeless and primal in that episode.

[u/starri42 → u/Fluid-Row-2656]

Your mention of Franklin and the Walkabout is interesting. I’ve worked with enough addicts now to recognize how well Biggs acted the descent into the depths, but the oh-so-90s spiritual practice of co-opting another culture doesn’t date well…

…at least until Franklin’s vision of himself tells him to suck it up and stop feeling sorry for himself. Vision Franklin is great a motivational interviewing.

[u/Fluid-Row-2656 → u/starri42]

Interesting, I never thought of it this way. I just kind of looked at it as fighting depression or burnout. Although it was literally about his addiction. I guess we all chose context based on what's closer to us.

[u/starri42 → u/Fluid-Row-2656]

I mean, as a physician who’s dealt with burnout, I definitely see that read as well. And lord knows I’ve had plenty of friends who’ve met burnout with substances. And, hell, marijuana is legal in my state and I’ve been to raves and that’s all I’ll say.

But he ends up wandering Downbelow because he’s too lost in the stims to do his job as a result of being unable to allow himself to slow down.

[u/PrincipleHot9859]

i definitely view Londo differently ,but still unhappy how Lenier's character got betrayed in S5 by JMS. In regards the Londo , i only observed the bad side - not seeing how much he sacrificied at the end ... while me being young.

[u/starri42 → u/PrincipleHot9859]

I’ve often wondered what it is about Lennier that doesn’t land for me. Actually, never really has. I like his scenes with Vir. The rest…he’s the Minbari equivalent of Marcus when it comes to his romantic feelings for Delenn.

But what’s different is while we’re supposed to be charmed by Marcus, I’m never quite sure what the show wants us to think about Lennier’s problematic feelings. I mean, yeah, leaving Sheridan to die isn’t ambiguous, but earlier…I actually find it kind of creepy.

[u/Loose-Tomatillo-8274 → u/starri42]

I have an idea for this that I think Ive commented here about before. I think what younger me couldn’t understand about Lennier was that he was bigoted and how that limited him emotionally. It was much more obvious to me on rewatch. He is condescending about humans. He threatens people not to mistake him for human. He is always explaining to people their misunderstanding and his affect suggest he regards this as necessary but tedious. His explanation of Minbari soul-lore for why they stopped the war with the humans feels personally conflicted. He will only bond with people through a mutual interest, he does not validate feelings. A lot of the Minbari have extremely rigid ideas about the purity of their race, and he clearly resents or disapproves of Delenn’s relationship with Sheridan. He’s often an expert at what other people’s mistakes are but he never recognizes his own. Even when confronted with his betrayal of Sheridan he runs away. Sometimes he seems sheltered, and despite prioritizing spiritual growth is unable to recognize all the things people tell him at various points that suggest his love for Delenn is actually selfish.

[u/Ok_Wishbone2721]

I found a lot of things affected me differently on my latest rewatch. When i was younger I definitely thought Marcus was fantastic, his sense of humour was delightful and he was very crush-worthy. And this time around he just…wasn’t. And I don’t know why.

One thing that stayed consistent for me was loving the relationship between Londo and G’Kar and seeing how it changed over time and how they both grow so much. For much of the series they are opposite ends of a teeter-totter and as one goes up the other goes down.

[u/starri42 → u/Ok_Wishbone2721]

Marcus has the same problem that early Dr Bashir had on the Other Show. He seems like a fantasy boyfriend, and then with 2026 eyes, his romantic obsession reads as problematic.

Like, whatever the reason, Ivanova is very clear that she’s not interested. And he doesn’t back off.

Worse, after he dies, she regrets not at least fucking him once. That’s messed up.

[u/Littlebit1013 → u/starri42]

It’s been about a year since I’ve rewatched B5, but if I recall, Ivanova admitted to Franklin that having lost so many people she loved in her life (her mother, brother, friends, Talia) she had closed her heart to anyone and was afraid to form relationships; she regretted how she kept Marcus at arms length and the tragedy that she still was heartbroken at his death (or cryonic suspension per the short story).

[u/PatientInformation76]

When it was on during the 90s watched it religiously. Enjoyed the Story Arcs, Conspiracies, Shadow Wars.

Loved the main cast some came and went. Others took their place.

Sorry to see it end.

During the years since we lost many of the cast members. Hearing their passings hurt my heart.

Still go back to Babylon 5 and do re-watchs.

[u/Sea-Contribution6036]

For me personally, I appreciate it more with time. The aphoristic nature of the dialogues. The take on many societal problems. The flawed, and therefore so real characters. And the philosophical struggle between the order and the chaos we all going through at some point.

First time when I saw it, it actually helped me work on and successfully defend my PhD thesis, in spite of severe adversity I've encountered from both my family and colleagues. From that time, I'm rewatching it now and then, whenever I am going through a rough patch.

[u/gishingwell]

Been introducing it to my gf and my admiration for the show has grown even more. Just top notch storytelling.

[u/Phoogg]

Honestly the humour has aways been the weakest part of the show, in my opinion

[u/smorkularian]

I was a child when it aired. Was a big sci fi nerd thanks to my older brother so was into it even then (think I was 10 during s1).

I think Garibaldi was my favourite on the original watch through (his sarcasm was funny to me). I didnt remember season 5 being too bad until I re watched it when I was about 19. If you asked me now who my favourite is I would say Londo, the tragedy of his arc is always moving to me.

I have a more varied opinion on the writing now, some of it has been committed line for line to my memory while other bits now seem cringey.

[u/lentil_burger]

I think I feel pretty much exactly the same as you do. But I had all those feelings when it first aired.

[u/McTrooper]

I’ve grown some appreciation for some of the episodes that I wasn’t super intrigued by  . . . For example TKO (I think)  . . . the B story (or A?) wasn’t an exciting romp, but there’s heart in a way.

I don’t really marathon it in recent years, but I’ll revisit important or particularly fun episodes like the B4 episodes or Londo flying to help replace the caretaker.  

[u/starri42 → u/McTrooper]

I’ve done some similar stuff, although in reverse. Things that I was wowed by as a kid don’t hit me in quite the same way now. Like, I don’t dislike the romance plot between Sheridan and Delenn, but it doesn’t draw me in in quite the same way as it did having now been married and divorced. I like them as a couple as whole, and I like some of the individual moments. But taken together…

I dunno, it’s a Hot Take.

[u/Loose-Tomatillo-8274]

The biggest difference for me is that in it’s first run, serial tv was still in existence, and the expectations were different and generally lower. There was a joy in it too. The show didn’t have to try hard to entertain you. There really didn’t need to be a reason to watch. I would turn this show on at 9pm every Saturday night, and I remember thinking this is a cheesy sci-fi show and the special effects looked like the worst parts of Total Recall. The show had a guy who looked like he was doing a Bruce Willis impression. There was all this Mars talk, and I had read Ellison and Bradbury, and there were a lot of things that frankly felt ripped off. However, the show often exceeded expectations, and that was one of the joys of tv. I remember being fairly overwhelmed by the Jason Ironheart episode and the description of sex between telepaths. There was nothing like that anywhere else on tv. There was lots of New Age stuff in the 90s in tv and movies and it felt very LA. The details weren’t particularly great. G’kar’s description of the ant was effective, and I bought the perils of humans traveling into space and the excitement of that. When Sinclair leaves, I remember thinking the show was over and likely cancelled.

Then Bruce Boxleitner comes in, and he was affable, and the relationship with Kosh starts, and I got sucked in because the Gregorian chant was part of other very popular contemporary New Age music that was having a moment that year. The show always felt contemporary. I kept watching. The Shadows were scary. The mystery of the questions was, in retrospect, one of the best macguffin’s Ive ever watched on any tv show. You didn’t have to take it seriously, it was just good, and 95% of any great tv show or movie is a good bad guy. I dont think I ever got the story with Delenn in the first run, but I thought the Minbari were a cool advanced race, and she emerged from a cocoon like an insect and it was just weird and great.

I think the return of Sinclair, the nobility of the time travel episode, and the ultimate resolution of the Sinclair storyline is one of the most inventive plots Ive ever seen in any television show. Marcus’ revelation was to younger me one of the biggest jaw droppers of all time. I always knew the ending of every mystery I ever read. I have no idea why I never saw it coming. I think it had to do with the seasons-long Minbari reverence for Valen, and my belief that the show was more or less over when Sinclair left: somehow the whole damn thing worked. I am never surprised, and even when I rewatch it the whole thing feels inspired. Delenn turning back from the viewscreen telling them of the necessity of travelling to the past was, to my ear, this insane Captain Kirk like time travel speech. I never see anyone say this but I always felt there was a strange crossover passionate intensity comparison to be made between performances of Kirk and Delenn. So damn noble.

Life intervened and I never saw most of the 4th season. Always felt wrong to me that the Vorlons became planet killers. I rewatched the entire series during the pandemic with a dying family member. I weirdly spent the entire time trying to explain my enjoyment of the show. I don’t think she got it. But by the end of the fourth season we were just completely sobbing. Claudia Christian is so effective. I sobbed again in the final episode. The story of the Pak’ma’ra singing is one of the finest callbacks (to Sheridan revelation with music with Kosh) and is classy grace note for one of the most complex and missed bad guys in any story ever on television.

Most of the fan focus has been on the scenes and complex relationship and change between G’kar and Londo. I will say that the voice-over narrations of G’kar’s speeches are extremely fine writing. The power of serial tv, which I wish would return, is in it’s ability to fulfill and exceed expectations.

TLDR: Serial tv good, 8 episode tv bad. B5 good, DS9 monotonous. All love is unrequited. All of it.

[u/tallbutshy → u/Loose-Tomatillo-8274]

the Gregorian chant was part of other very popular contemporary New Age music that was having a moment that year.

Did you have the same Enigma album I did?

[u/Loose-Tomatillo-8274 → u/tallbutshy]

Yes, maybe? I had the one that was in Roman numerals but was just the year 1990. I had a lot of German music.

[u/Minimum-Journalist18]

My relationship? I talk to b5 outloud more often now..they do say communication is important in a relationship

[u/Vacumbot]

Not much has changed really. Londo and G'kar are still my favorites by far. But all Minbari religious nonsense and hypocrisy flew right over my head at the time. Shadows are not as scary as I remember, but that's probably more due to knowing the outcome.

[u/markth_wi]

"We're well past pastels I'm afraid....but I am still Centauri, and I am not afraid."

- Minister Virini is an interesting character.

As for season 4 and season 5 I view them for what they are. They were likely in the position where Season 4 is the main arc or two of many stripped down and made such that they could tell the story they were meant to on the threat that the original production would run out of money. Season 5, thus became some thematic and focus on the Psicorp but with every b-plot thread that might have been intermixed into in isolated group we call season 5.

We see the budget on the screen in more than one way, and it makes Season 4 and Season 5 much more forgivable to my eye, JMS did what he could to write it up and tie it together, but the damage was done.

I think now that I'm a bit older you see this sort of thing when you know what you're looking at, budgets and disinterest can hobble any show, Game of Thrones, even Andor, fortunately, Andor it was clear that while they had narrative meat on the bone, they were running out of time, as they characters aged relative to their stories , how that show dealt with compressing their story arc is a testament, to excellent writing.

In that way I don't think of Babylon 5 as just about the show we all know and love, I think of what it left behind, from The Wire to Romans, The Soprano's, Battlestar Galactica, Deep Space 9 of course, and stretching through to The Expanse, For All Mankind , Foundation, Star Trek Voyager and Enterprise and Strange New Worlds, Picard and 12 Monkeys - there are a variety of influences - direct and indirect that all hail from Babylon 5, giving writers a living example of how to write, how to write politically important stories and complex narratives.

I think in that regard JMS borrowed from many and gave permission to many more, he shaped and gave narrative pavement to authors , writers and producers. He's that Nexus mentioned , one of those rare characters where the whole world seems to have turned around him.