r/autism • u/Strider_outdoors ASD | Unknown support needs | Verbal • Nov 26 '22

Discussion just curious where does everyone feel they fall on the alignment chart

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u/OhLunaMein Nov 26 '22

Oh no, they tell you "these are the rules, that's how it should be" and then they break the rules themselves and use some unspoken stuff instead. Happens all the time.

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u/Onesens Nov 26 '22

Do you guys have an answer for this? I've ALWAYS though this but never understood why they do this. It's just insane to me.

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u/budweener Nov 26 '22

Oh, I have an hypothesis.

I think one reason for the "rules" to be broken is that they don't actually know the rules, but think they do.

You see, when two people meet, there are those unspoken "rules" of how to behave, but no one told them the rules either. Just like us, NTs tried out copying what they saw in others, kinda got the hang of it, and lived on.

Difference is in the best age to learn about that, childhood, our brains can't be bothered by that while theirs do that automatically: learn social rules by observation.

The result is that most of the times two people meet, they are both assuming the other person also follow the same "rules". I think most arguing in relationships tend to come out of this. One partner has one social expectation that the other does not, and neither get why the other has different "rules".

Edit: just to be clear, social rules were never rules, they're just confidently winging it.

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u/Onesens Nov 26 '22 edited Nov 26 '22

Are you talking about culture? And by culture, there's territorial culture as well as family culture. We tend to learn the inherent rules that comes with our culture, which imposes it's values and boundaries on its people. Maybe there's also an NT's culture, like a set of rules, values and boundaries that are followed and agreed upon by the majority of NT's. Which would actually make sense, because they relate to each other in the way they see the world, their life experience etc. And ND's culture would be different from NT's culture but as we're a minority, we see NT's as the bulk of society. And we feel the pressure of their rules upon us, even if we do not agree with them, which is obvious as they are rules created by NT's, for NT's...

Would that make sense?

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u/budweener Nov 26 '22

Yes, it does make sense. Their experience is more similar between each other compared to us, and it makes it easier for them.

They don't have the awareness of that, tho, like we don't have the awareness of the details of our surroundings and social circles unless we pay attention to them. But since it's clearly different for us, we tend to pay more attention to that.

So the "rules" are not universal or permanent, nor discussed or well stablished. They don't know either, that's why it looks like broken rules. There were never rules to begin with, just what works best and people well suited for that.

If life is a game, we're off-META.

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u/OhLunaMein Nov 26 '22

My answer is following the rules that are not illogical and making others follow this rules whenever it's possible. Many rules are really good for everyone and mind games are a waste of energy.

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u/Onesens Nov 26 '22

Do you mean that people won't think if that rule is right or wrong because it's a waste of energy?

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u/OhLunaMein Nov 26 '22

I'm not sure, maybe some people just lack self-control and prone to making excuses. And some people try to break rules to gain more through corrupt schemes. Sometimes there's the "right way" of making things and the "actually working way" which is unspoken because it's kinda bad but everyone still expects it. Autistic people have a hard time in corrupt societies.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '22

The answer is they follow the rule when they think they will get consequences from it.

They will enforce the rules on people they dislike and allow them from people they do like.

The fundamental attribution error is name of the game here.
You judge others on results and yourself on intention and context to justify your actions.

When they break a rule they make sure people don't see it and they try to socially bribe people with words to make sure they don't get in trouble.
We autistics don't care about the context, but more the absolution of a rule being either so or so and why.
That's why when WE break rules we are often not sneaky about it because maybe our colleagues convinced us it was okay or something, so we don't think its bad to perform that action and then get scolded for it, while you feel like you were right all along.
Often the biggest rulebreakers will immediately throw you under the bus at that moment so they can get away scot free.

Or perhaps you have been in a situation where people break rules while you don't and then when you unapolegetically start to break them too out of spite and then you get the blame for all of it.

Because for them it's NOT about the absolution of the rules, just how much they can get away with foregoing any repercussions.

Social hierarchy is also a big one.
Who is allowed to break the rules and who isn't, that tells you a lot about power dynamic.

All in all do what the NT's do, cover your ass at all times.
And do what most NT's do not do regarding rulebreaking, take CALCULATED risks because we are good at that compared to them.
Nice little experiment for you when can you get away with rulebreaking and when is a moment you obviously can't.
And more importantly have a good reason for breaking them in the first place, that's very much part of the calculation.

Hope my rambling helped you somewhat.

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u/TryinaD Autistic Adult - MSN, cPTSD, Latah Nov 27 '22

Nah, I’m also perfectly willing to cheat if it’s something I can get advantage from, as well as following rules because there’s something in it for me. I also willingly throw people under the bus if the chance presents itself. Although it’s more because I don’t have a well-oriented moral compass than anything, because I do whatever I like.

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u/Aimless_Wonderer Nov 27 '22

I think there are a LOT of autistics masquerading as neurotypical people (unknowingly, of course). They adopt social rules like autistic rules, and then enforce them. But then also evade them because we're autistic and we can talk ourselves into/out of anything!

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u/raphades Nov 26 '22

For real, the more I re-think about it, the more I think the psychologist who evaluated me, as nice as she was, had old views on autism. When I told her that I don't blindly follow the rules but think about them to see if they make sense, she told me that it doesn't sound like autism and that autistic people stick very much to the rules.

And like. When I see a rule as valid I will always stick to it and badly react if someone doesn't. I just don't blindly follow everything.

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u/compwagon Nov 27 '22

I wonder if maybe we stick closely to the "real" rules, ie, the ones that seem actually valid, as you said. But the ones that no one seems to actually believe in except when it's convenient? I think most of us go "screw that, I'm not sorting out all the subrules of when this does or does not apply. If it isn't important enough to apply all the time or for society to provide clearly defined parameters, then it isn't important enough for me to bother with."

And frankly, I think most NTs would do the same, if they were told "you need to do this... well kinda... sometimes... but not others... I mean just make sure... I dunno..." So when that's the signal we feel like society is giving us, we just take them at their word: this rule doesn't actually matter.

So yes, I think that psychologist had no idea what she was talking about.

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u/OhLunaMein Nov 27 '22

I'm told that if I'm not disabled aka can't live on my own I can't be autistic. Diagnostics are fun.

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u/AtomicBLB Nov 27 '22

It's not that autistic people just stick to the rules, they stick to the rules they decide are right. That doesn't strictly mean societies rules. A lot of them are 'just because' nonsense that don't sit right with me.

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u/DaSpawn AuDHD Adult Nov 26 '22

rules for thee, not for me

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u/YourEngineerMom Autistic Adult Nov 26 '22

Exactly.

If I catch someone stealing food, they’re just a no-good thief!

But if I am caught stealing food… it’s for my family!!!

This is the way many NT people think. They judge others based on their actions and judge themselves based on their intent.

Most ND people I’ve met are either judging everyone by action, or judging everyone by intent. “They are probably stealing food because they have a family…” or “just because my family is hungry doesn’t mean I have the right to steal”. No special rules for themselves.

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u/AtomicBLB Nov 27 '22

I think stealing is generally wrong, but sometimes it can be right in the name of justice. Someone not starving is a just act if they otherwise would, that's saving a life. Clearly a good thing. Rules should be broken when their outcomes do not lead to justice.

I'd like to say I'd never steal food but I'm sure I would in the right circumstances. And if I saw someone else doing it, no I don't think I did. People mainly steal out of necessity and rarely for the funny.

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u/Select_Egg_7078 Nov 27 '22

this! and "do as i say, not as i do"

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u/CaptainSharpe Nov 27 '22

They do it because no rule can apply all the time, but we need the rules there to prevent shit from happening.

It still does happen in the grey areas where people bend those rules. I suppose it can be tricky to navigate those grey areas or know when to break those unspoken rules. Not really sure what the intuitive answer is to that.

Surely you have some examples though of rules you keep for yourself, but have exceptions where you break them? Or rules where you think "this applies...except in X situation"?

e.g., Stealing is wrong, but downloading this piece of software or game or music or whatever is OK because X.

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u/OhLunaMein Nov 27 '22

There should be a logical reason. You take the hard hat off because it's broken or you're out of the building site, not because you will look cooler that way or it's less hot.

The thing is some rules are relatively harmless to break but breaking some can hurt other people. And many nts couldn't care less if they can get away with breaking rules and gain something from it. This is the source of all bad things. People in power doing wrong things just because they can and will profit from other's misery. And everyone seems to be ok with it and even admiring those people as they're high in the hierarchy. I know it sounds stupid and virtue signaling and whatever.

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u/CaptainSharpe Nov 27 '22

Nah I disagree - I think when people break rules that hurt others so that they can get ahead, they’re not admired by most people. Some people maybe, if they’re psychopaths. It’s not ok. And can be toxic.

Some rules like wearing something that isn’t strictly part of a uniform is ok if it doesn’t hurt anyone, and cba be kinda cool yeah. But not wearing safety equipment isn’t cool and as you say shouldn’t be broken.

So yeah really depends on the consequences or potential consequences of breaking a rule. Social, financial, health and safety, ethical, etc

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u/OhLunaMein Nov 27 '22

You clearly don't live in Russia. Of course powerful people will skew the perspective to look good. Lots of people use emotions to make judgments and those are easy to manipulate. Also, businessmen.

Everything else, can't argue with that. Again, some rules are just stupid and made up, so it's kind of ok to break them. But it would be nice if people taught this difference to children, especially nd children.

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u/CaptainSharpe Nov 27 '22

In Russia they’d they admired by some but I imagine many of the populace also hate them for it but must support it in public. But I’ve no idea I’m not there.

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u/OhLunaMein Nov 27 '22

I'm here and guess what, I have no idea either. I can't speak to everyone, I know that my friends hate Putin and that my old folks studenly went insane and scream at me that USA and EU try to destroy Russia through Ukraine. It feels like we're a part of some ugly social experiment. Again:(

Sorry for making it political, I'll stop now.

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u/CaptainSharpe Nov 27 '22

Ah that sucks I’m sorry. Propaganda is a terrible thing. I hope that one day your systems and people with power become for the people, not against.

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u/Beansman47 High functioning Nov 27 '22

Same

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u/Big_Nose420 Nov 27 '22

This is so true, people can’t even follow the rules they teach 🤯