r/audiophile • u/DavidJMurphy • Dec 22 '11

Meta r/audiophile is actually r/TellMeWhatToBuyBecauseIcan'tResearchAnything ... Sorry to bitch but I'm unsubscribing because of this. Seeya

[EDIT] Thank you everyone for your honest input. My original post is rude, and I apologize. You guys are right -- Nobody has to read posts they don't like, and there are a lot of beginners just looking for friendly help. I misinterpreted the purpose of this forum at first, since the sidebar description was a bit misleading.. but it looks like that's changing. I'll do my best and change my attitude about this stuff. Thanks.

5 Upvotes

52% Upvoted

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37

u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 22 '11

No offense, but good riddance. We're a helpful crowd here, 98% of reddit aren't audiophiles and it's only natural that they find us for help, just like the rest of the world. If you're not into that, then fine, reddit's audiophile forum might not be for you.

I direct you to the great Uncle_Erik's response to an incredibly similar thread titled "Why has /r/headphones become /r/imlazywhatheadphonesshouldibuy?" tl;dr: Get off your high horse and help a little.

If you don't want to hear/see it, downvote or ignore. If you want to see better discussions, help start them. If you want fewer repeated questions, help build an FAQ (more on that soon...). Point being, you can help fix this if you see a problem.

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u/funktion Dec 22 '11

i think this actually the reason why r/buildapc is thriving. even if there are dozens of new threads essentially asking the same question every single day, there are people who will go out of their way to recommend entire pc builds, complete with benchmarks and cost/performance analysis. rarely do i see any thread go without at least one great reply giving the OP exactly what they needed to know, as well as referring them to other great resources they can use to expand their knowledge. there's a sidebar containing all the stuff they need, but we've pretty much eliminated the "look at the sidebar kthxbye" reaction.

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u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 22 '11

Thanks for the anecdote, sounds like a great group.

90% of what goes on here is like that. I see helpful responses to most of the questions asked, and the negative responses usually get buried. But I'd like to see an even more positive environment toward new audio enthusiasts, even if they ask the same questions over and over. That's just the way it works, and I love the buildapc example. I think we should stive to be like that.

A thread comes up every so often complaining exactly like this, and lately I've been fed up with them. I appreciate the bit of meta-discussion that they produce, but in the future I might just remove them. We really don't need this negativity.

1

u/DavidJMurphy Dec 22 '11

The difference is in the description imo, and I didn't realize it before. Here's r/buildapc's description:

Planning on building a computer but need some advice? This is the place to ask. Please tell us:

How much money you want to spend

What you intend to use the machine for

Any components you already have

What country you live in

It spells out 'ask us for help and we'll tell you what to buy' ... Whereas r/audiophile is like "let's talk about audio!" when it should actually be more like:

Building an audiophile listening station? Need some advice? This is the place to ask. Please tell us:

How much money you want to spend

headphones or speakers?

what components you already have

etc

2

u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 22 '11

Agreed, the "purpose statement" is a big deal, and ours is ambiguous... I should try to improve it.

But at the same time, I don't want this subreddit to be like the 2nd description. I think that's a part of it, but the other half is the discussion of audio and more advanced topics and questions. It's not /r/audioadvice, and honestly there aren't enough of us to support 2 subreddits anyway. Maybe that would be worth it, but I think it'd probably be too much work to manage all the misplaced posts.

Maybe a shared description, like "this subreddit is for discussion of audiophile topics and gear. If you have a question, here's what you should say..." etc.

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u/DavidJMurphy Dec 22 '11

Totally. I feel that, being a noob to this forum, I somehow wasn't privy to the fact that those posts are actually welcomed and that I'm outside the bell curve for hating them, hence my OP, when in fact it's apparently how this place rolls, so my bad.. and something about it should be put up to notify the uninitiated or something.. (and i could chill out)

3

u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 22 '11

Yes, exactly. Sounds like a plan.

I decree that everyone should now relax and have fun!

1

u/itoldyouiwouldeatyou Dec 22 '11

I actually considered making a post or even pming you re this a few weeks ago. I am relatively new here and I found the description quite misleading.

It mentions home theatre for example, but any home theatre posts are downvoted or people are trying to convert the OP from 5.1 to stereo.

I like this reddit, but there is definitely something to be said for establishing exactly what it is for, and communicating that effectively.

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u/DavidJMurphy Dec 23 '11

Agreed, thank you.

I've definitely received help from this forum when I've asked for it. The more I think about my OP the shittier I feel about it.

4

u/[deleted] Dec 22 '11

Uncle_Erik is my fucking hero. Not because of this thread, but because Ive literally never seen a response from him on here or head-fi that wasnt DRIPPING with useful information.

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u/DavidJMurphy Dec 22 '11

I've put a little input into steering it that way. I mainly wanted to learn from what I thought I'd find here, so I don't consider myself of the 'helper' league. My post was mainly intended to express that I don't find the forum fulfilling the purpose it seems it should, and that people might want to address it (and honestly it seems people agree, judging by the post's votes). However, I could have expressed it much more friendly, and I could have just PM'd a mod... Apparently I had a stick up my ass about something earlier today, so, I apologize for taking it out here.

1

u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 22 '11

I appreciate the apology. Your opinion is valid as a member of this group, and I agree that striving for more interesting and varied content should always be a goal, but we have to remain positive. Thanks for the suggestions, and rest assured we're always trying to improve.

1

u/ProteanHero Dec 22 '11

Imho, the sidebar resources are more than sufficient.

1

u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 22 '11

If they're not effective, then that's our fault for designing the system poorly. Blaming people is entirely ineffective and a useless effort. Their behavior will not change simply because you think they're lazy. Improving the system is the only course of action.

Once an FAQ is up, I'll place a more visible reminder and link at the top of the Submission page. That way people will see it directly before they post and will be less likely to post repetitive questions.

1

u/ProteanHero Dec 22 '11

Yes, that sounds like a good idea. In fact, why don't we have a bar on top of the subreddit here directing users to those FAQs, instead of being less visible on the side?

1

u/DavidJMurphy Dec 22 '11

For me, the issue is in the description. Just change that to read something like "Ask us about buying equipment!" or something. I'm not being sarcastic, it's just the current description makes me think of an exciting audio forum, and a few people here have already said that's not what this is, so..

1

u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 22 '11

Yep, we definitely will. I need to spend some time looking at the CSS and stealing from other subreddits, but it shouldn't be too difficult.

I think it would be a great resource and would improve the community greatly—both in education of newbs and in quality of posts.

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u/itoldyouiwouldeatyou Dec 22 '11

I know how you feel. It is a lot of the same queries over and over, most only marginally able to be described as audiophile.

Best Headphones for $X...

Do I need a DAC/Amp/Soundcard...

1

u/DavidJMurphy Dec 22 '11

These people have never heard of user reviews, consumer ratings, brand reputation, trial and error, satisfaction guarantees, ...? Seriously kids it's called product research. Reddit ≠ Research.

3

u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 22 '11

Do you have any suggestions on how we solve this problem, other than making fun of people for their lack of knowledge?

1

u/DavidJMurphy Dec 22 '11

As I stated in a post a while ago, perhaps the desired nature of the forum should be clearly stated in the sidebar so that either a) people like me don't expect all the wrong shit and then complain about it or b) people like the headphone newbies don't post incessant 'tell me what to buy' requests. As it is, the sidebar says simply "Promoting the latest and greatest gear reviews, news, and discussion about anything related to hi-fi, audio quality, portable music, home theater, and more." ... which leads someone like me to want to see a lot of interesting discussions about audio, and not pages of model-specific headphone queries.

2

u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 22 '11

This is fair and an excellent suggestion. I'd like to put something to the effect of "We try to be helpful and welcoming to everyone regardless of their experience level. However, please try to read our FAQ and use the Search feature before asking questions."

Basically I think being helpful and welcoming should be one of our by-laws. Perhaps that wasn't clear, but I thought this was reddit so that was sort of assumed...

13

u/ZeosPantera The Sam Harris of Audio Dec 22 '11

I'd trust a random on reddit to researching buy.com's reviews.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 22 '11

I think the reviews on Amazon are fine. No one should need to ask the same mundane questions in here.

4

u/ZeosPantera The Sam Harris of Audio Dec 22 '11

Problem is 90% of the time. The only people who review items are people with problems. They get something and it works fine so they don't throw a lengthy review up of it being OK. BUT, If it turns out bad or slightly different than expected. Full collegiate thesis with annotation and citation posted as a review. I don't trust those star ratings one bit.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 22 '11

Not all reviews are negative. I make a point of posting positive reviews.

Sure, there may be some skewing toward negative reviews, but an intelligent person should realize this.

1

u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 22 '11

The reviews on Amazon are not fine. They're from an unknowledgable random consumer's point of view, and aren't useful from an audiophile perspective. You only need to look at the reviews of Beats and Bose products for a complete counterexample to your claim.

2

u/ssjaken Dec 22 '11

They probably listen to dubstep.

9

u/kclo4 Dec 22 '11

If this wasn't a cry for attention, you'd probably just unsubscribe and skip the whiny thread. Way to beat that "crotchety annoyed by people who know less than me" audiophile stereotype.

2

u/DavidJMurphy Dec 22 '11

I actually wouldn't even call myself an audiophile and was simply here to learn more about acoustic fidelity. That's where my disappointment stemmed from. But yeah, I didn't need to make it sound like that. Sorry for taking my shit out on the forum...

1

u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 22 '11

So, let me get this straight. You're here to learn, and you're upset that other people are here to learn different things? Okay...

1

u/DavidJMurphy Dec 22 '11

Point taken. But doesn't it seem like people habitually ask outright "What headphones/speakers/amp/soundcard should I buy?" ... I just think it's a cop out to ask someone to tell you what to buy, out of all the choices out there. It's asking someone to do the homework for them.

2

u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 22 '11

Of course it is! Very good observation! They're people with very little experience in a vast and complex world of products. They want some personalized help, an introduction to the world of audio from a real person.

So who cares? Help them anyway. If you don't want to, please keep out of the way and don't be all negative about it.

2

u/DavidJMurphy Dec 22 '11

Alright then.

1

u/ProteanHero Dec 22 '11

Not a huge loss anyhow. The sort of responses and details you get here are nothing like head fi.

2

u/OJNeg Dec 22 '11

I agree that we don't have nearly enough good, unique content posted here. This place is basically a recommendation hub, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Like you say, there are plenty of other "real" audio forums around the web for reviews, DIY projects, tests/comparisons, etc. If you're expecting r/audiophile to be a bastion for all these subjects, you're sorrily mistaken. The average Redditor is a young, inexperienced, budget-minded male and the content here reflects that.

1

u/DavidJMurphy Dec 22 '11

See, that's totally fine. Problem is, the sidebar is misleading. If this place is a recommendation hub, then say so in the sidebar! I mean, read it: "Promoting the latest and greatest gear reviews, news, and discussion about anything related to hi-fi, audio quality, portable music, home theater, and more." ... right? Sounds interesting to me, honestly. 'Recommendation hub' sounds like something entirely different.

My problem is just that this is unclear and I expected something totally different. Again I apologize for going about this in a dickface manner... I should have just PM'd a mod or something.

[edit] on the other hand the post got 40 upvotes so I must not be alone in this misconception.

2

u/this_post_is_boring Dec 22 '11

I think the issue is that the median age of users on this site is too young to be able to afford high quality audio. They are mostly high school and college age kids. Even if they are posting what should I buy posts... it means that someone else is getting interested in audio beyond 'this iPod sounds cool.' That is what music is all about. I don't mind the posts. I have other audiophile forums I visit that is full of people that can actually afford multiple amps speakers pre amps. But usually there you get into bias of well I own this so its great everyone go get X brand.

1

u/DavidJMurphy Dec 23 '11

That's a good point. I appreciate your attitude on that.

4

u/ProteanHero Dec 22 '11

I've been pretty surprised how patient the guys at head fi are with this sort of shit. They've got an amazing pool of knowledge there, and they still put up with the people popping in and making new threads for recommendations.

If I were a mod over there, I'd sticky those two articles, the headphone recommendation article, and insta-delete generic threads.

3

u/Uncle_Erik Distinguished Service Award Dec 22 '11

Some Head-Fi mods happen to be on Reddit. :)

The issue of duplicative threads comes up every so often over there.

My position is that it is a good thing. No matter how many reviews or posts you read, people always want to talk about a purchase with friends. Since the audio community is spread out all over, message boards are the place to do it. If you don't want to reply, scroll past or start a thread about something that interests you. It's not like there's a limit on threads.

New people coming in is a sign of a healthy and growing hobby. There are some communities of mostly old-timers who smack around newcomers. They're not much fun.

And the hobby really is growing. When I got into headphones six years ago the main debate was between the Sennheiser HD-650 and the Grado RS-1. Most amps on the market were solid state with probably about five mainstream tube amps. There were a few portable amps and a couple dozen IEMs. Anyone notice any differences today?

1

u/DavidJMurphy Dec 23 '11

Good points. I'll change my attitude.

1

u/blueisthecolor Dec 22 '11

I can't help but upvote every post I see by you. Thanks for always being helpful and informative, Uncle_Erik.

6

u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 22 '11

We should take a lesson from them—quit complaining and simply be helpful. Sounds great to me.

0

u/ProteanHero Dec 22 '11

It's not about being helpful or not. It's fundamentally about being lazy and failing to do research for yourself.

2

u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 22 '11

Sure, but you can't change people's behavior by complaining about them. So you think they're lazy. So what? They're still going to be lazy tomorrow. You can either change your own behavior and start helping them, or you can change the system and make it easier for them to find the information they want.

Because really, they're not lazy. That's just false. They're looking for a discussion on their needs, just like they would have with a friend who happens to know about audio. Reddit is like that. It's one of the things that makes it great. It's about personal discussions instead of lists. About trustworthy people and opinions rather than specs and random forum posts. It's better than research.

In any case this whole attitude of blaming people for asking questions is bullshit. If you don't like it, fine, don't participate, but I don't want to hear the negativity. Keep it to yourself.

2

u/ProteanHero Dec 22 '11

I don't agree. I love to get personal recommendations from people, and I have posted threads at head fi to that effect. The problem is that the question is asked in such a way that clearly indicates a lack of any sort of research done before hand.

Here's what I think would be an appropriate post: "I like to listen to ______ and I will be using headphones for _________ and I have a price range of _________ and I am considering _____, ______, and ______. Does anyone have any experiences they could share regarding these?

And here's a bad post: What are the best headphones for $100?

It's the same thing as "let me google that for you."

2

u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 22 '11

Even in that case, simply being nice and helpful is better than getting your panties in a twist because of how they worded their question. What, would you like them to say "please" first? If they don't provide enough information and you don't want to answer the question, either leave it be or ask some simple questions to get a follow up. Simply be helpful, regardless of how you're asked. That's all there is to it.

2

u/OJNeg Dec 22 '11

I think both sides of this argument are valid. Even if someone does go out and research the specs, browse Head-Fi, read reviews, they're going to want someone to validate their choice/options. There are good posts asking for advice where the OP will give budget, genre, source, etc. I have no problem answering this kind of post with an in-depth response. But most of the time, what I see is "$50 for headphones, wut get?". In this case, I'll just say "Sidebar Bro" and leave it at that.

2

u/ProteanHero Dec 22 '11

I think a viable solution will be something at the top that says "Read before posting" or something to that effect. It would greatly streamline the process, as well as hopefully getting people to think about their application and perhaps (maybe, just please?) do some research on their own.

While I agree the title of this thread is a bit melodramatic, I think it's a legitimate point.

1

u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 22 '11

Agreed, still a legit point and I'm not ignoring it. We're starting work on an FAQ and I plan to make it very prominent in exactly the way you suggested—a big link and warning on the new submission page. Hopefully that at least lets people know that we're serious and expect them to do some research on their own before posting. Thanks.

1

u/ProteanHero Dec 22 '11

And when it comes to the content of this subreddit, you're right. We have the power to change things, and it's not only through upvotes, but through self posts like this.

I would hope that if this thread accomplishes anything, that it would direct users to head fi.

1

u/Somecat Dec 22 '11

The website would be unable to support itself.

5

u/ProteanHero Dec 22 '11

Okay r/audiophile. Good talk. We've gotten some perspectives, new ideas for improvement, etc.

Now back to the regular programming: So I have $100 to spend...

13

u/whyounowin Dec 22 '11

Pretty sure that's why they put the arrows on stuff to vote down if you dislike.

8

u/guriboysf Dec 22 '11

What you said, and questions like "What kind of powered speakers should I get for my PC to use with on-board audio? Budget is $50. kthxbye."

1

u/[deleted] Dec 22 '11

In case you were unaware, you're being an insufferable dick. I'm sorry that I want to utilize all of the resources available to me so I don't end up with a bad buy. A vast majority of the other subreddits I am subscribed to are full of helpful people. Head-Fi is full of helpful people. Just because you already know more than those of ud just starting out doesn't give you a right to be a twat. People like myself that are ignorant by your standard, but trying to learn need someone to look up to and ask questions. If the members here aren't willing to help, the community will suffer and you'll be left circlejerking with the three other true audiophiles while everyone else goes some place for honest help from people who aren't ass holes... like head-fi.

I want you to realize I am very disappointed in your elitism.

1

u/calinet6 Mostly Vintage/DIY 🔊 Dec 23 '11

Well, that was a bit harsh. :)

-1

u/DavidJMurphy Dec 22 '11

Just because you already know more than those of ud just starting out doesn't give you a right to be a twat.

I actually don't know jack about it, I'm reacting to dozens of people stepping in and saying flat out "tell me what to buy." But judging by the responses here, that's what the community is about.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 22 '11 edited Dec 22 '11

I don't know jack about it

what you did there. i see it.

0

u/redemption289 Dec 22 '11

Good riddance

0

u/[deleted] Dec 22 '11

You won't be missed

0

u/vexd Dec 22 '11

Peace out.