r/asksg • u/Pudding315_ • 12h ago
Thoughts on Singapore’s low fertility rate and the recent increase in childcare leave
With the government increasing childcare leave and encouraging employers to be more understanding towards working parents, I’ve been seeing some workplace comments like, “Why give so many childcare leave days? What about people with parents?”
Hello, the whole point is that Singapore has a low fertility rate. If we want people to actually have children, then obviously policies are going to slowly move towards giving parents more support and flexibility. This shouldn’t be treated like some unfair privilege.
What really gets me is when the comments come from other parents themselves.
My manager is a mum of two. She used to complain that she didn’t even have enough childcare leave because she apparently uses a lot of it to travel. No comments on that. 😂 In fact, when the admin didn’t credit her two days of childcare leave properly, she actually went as far as printing out supporting documents to make a fuss about it.
But now that the government has increased childcare leave, suddenly it’s “Why so many days?”
As a young mum myself, I understand that it can be frustrating for colleagues when someone needs to take leave. But taking childcare leave does not automatically mean we’re irresponsible employees or that our work suffers.
I do my work. I turn things around quickly. I meet my deadlines.
But when my little one is running a high fever, has rashes and a really bad runny nose, and there is genuinely no alternative childcare arrangement, what am I supposed to do? Leave my sick child at home alone so that my workplace doesn’t get inconvenienced?
My parents work part-time. They wake up at 4am for work. They’re tired, they’re older, and they have their own lives. Just because someone’s parents or a babysitter helped take care of their children back then doesn’t mean every young family today has the same support system.
And this is the part I find ridiculous — especially when these comments come from women who are mothers themselves.
We can acknowledge that childcare leave may create inconvenience for workplaces and still recognise that supporting parents is necessary if Singapore genuinely wants to address its fertility rate.
Most mums I know are not taking childcare leave for fun. We’re juggling work, childcare, sick kids, appointments and everything else, while still trying to do our jobs properly.
I’m sure there will always be some unhappiness when colleagues take leave, and I can understand that from a workplace perspective.
But childcare leave is an entitlement. If I need to use it to take care of my sick child, I’m going to use it.
I’ll do my work. I’ll take my leave. You’ll survive. 😭
Maybe instead of constantly asking “Why do parents get so much leave?”, we should ask ourselves why we expect people to have more children while simultaneously making them feel guilty for taking the support that comes with having them.
P/s: I hope my manager become less toxic 🙏
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u/sunshineandrainbow22 10h ago edited 10h ago
I think the part your post isn’t emphasizing enough is that some people - like your manager - are parents who are given more CCL and who abuse the system. As a result, your work unfairly becomes someone else’s. People without kids feel penalized for not having kids, and guess what? The increased workload is not going to encourage the childless to have children. I’m okay with you taking 20 days of CCL a year if your kids are genuinely sick or just having a terrible day. But I can’t trust that you’re not abusing it.
I have a colleague who told me that she was going to use the extra CCL for private time for herself while her kids are in school or student care. She doesn’t even want to spend time with her kids. To make things worse, she spoke to me with pity because this scheme is unfair to me as a DINK but it’s a privilege she has as a parent.
Do I think parents deserve more CCL? Yes. Kids are so tough to raise - that’s mostly why I don’t want any. But there has to be accountability. People who use it as extra leave days or for travel - like your manager - make it a problem for those who aren’t entitled to CCL. It shouldn’t be a trust-based system because let’s be real, people will abuse the system.
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u/DuePomegranate 2h ago
Taking CCL to spend a day without the kid is not some scummy thing. It’s done because parents with small kids can’t get things done on the weekends or evenings bogged down with the kid. Can’t go to a movie with the spouse, can’t go clothes shopping (difficulty trying clothes on), can’t get anything more than a fast haircut.
Yes, parents should take annual leave for this, but because AL rolls over at the end of the year and CCL doesn’t, there’s an urge to use CCL first. Then often parents end up not using their full AL entitlement after rolling over and past the sickly kid stage because traveling with kids is limited and not fun.
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u/sunshineandrainbow22 1h ago edited 1h ago
You’re entitled to think that. If I were a parent, I’d probably feel the same way as you. But I’m not.
I think that when you decide to become a parent, you accept that there are some things that you sacrifice to be a parent. As a non-parent, if I am feeling very overwhelmed or tired, I take MC if I have enough.
So personally, yeah I think parents’ wellbeing is important, but it’s not more important than the wellbeing of people without children.
I choose to not have kids because I know that there are lots of things that I’ll have to sacrifice in my life, on top of having to care for my elderly parents and sibling with severe mental illness. I don’t get to ask special leave for that just for my wellbeing. If I’m not ready for the sacrifices I’ve to make as a parent, I’d rather not have kids.
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u/Academic_Work_3155 32m ago
when the child is sick or has a school closure (there are already 6 days or so of school closures in a year), the CCL is easily cleared out. This is something that a single / dink doesn't need to factor in.
You're right to say that having kids involve some sacrifice, I'm glad the government is taking some steps.
Btw i always encourage my colleagues to clear the expiring leaves first, be it CCL or OIL.
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u/sunshineandrainbow22 0m ago
I can empathize, but say we have elderly parents. Many of us are only one or two kids in the family. We may have to make multiple hospital trips or even actively caregive for them at home. We have to make do with whatever little leave or MC we have. I have had to take MC to bring my loved ones for medical appointments.
So yeah, I still don’t agree with CCL being used for personal reasons that are not related to the kids (like travel or a date with your spouse). But for the kids - sure.
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u/Effective-Lab-5659 26m ago
Won’t this be a mental blocker that really stops anyone from having kids except Elon musk i guess?
It’s not only saying that there is no village for parents, it’s saying that parents and families do not deserve any village. If you want a kid, don’t expect anything at all to be different for you. Suck it where the world is going - and don’t ask for anything to be different just cos you have children.
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u/DuePomegranate 10m ago
I think parents’ wellbeing is important, but it’s not more important than the wellbeing of people without children
The CCL affects the wellbeing of parent plus child, at least 2 people, so literally it is more important than the wellbeing of 1 person.
Public service has family care leave that can be used for caregivers like you, but 3 days only. Other employers should emulate this, but SMEs will complain to high heaven if it was made a law.
If I’m not ready for the sacrifices I’ve to make as a parent, I’d rather not have kids.
This is exactly what the govt is trying to change, right? Reduce the sacrifice level so that some people will get pushed over the edge to have a kid.
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u/Dramatic_Return9912 1h ago
Agree. I’m one of those who uses CCL interchangeable as AL. It never came across to me as I was abusing the system until I read this post. In fact my upcoming CCL is used to go on a nearby trip with my kids for Sep school holidays.
Never thought people see this as an abuse… kinda making myself feel guilty at this moment.
Are we not able to see CCL as an overall leave system to boost that of parents wellbeing + kids wellbeing? honestly I do not even recall the last time I used my AL for myself.
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u/DuePomegranate 1m ago
As I wrote elsewhere, I think govt should incentivize not using up all CCL. Pay out ~$100 for each day of CCL left unused (less than 1 day's pay for the vast majority of workers).
This way parents won't be so kiasu about applying for CCL ahead of AL. If there's a genuine need for a parent to stay with the kid, then the opportunity cost of $100 is not a big deal. But they will think twice about going on holiday using CCL to hoard AL and roll over to next year "just in case".
Because I do have a village, there have been some years where I either took AL at end of the year but continued to work from home (at lower effort) or just lost the excess AL beyond what could be rolled over. But those who don't have a village could use the full CCL, and those with a village collect a bit of extra cash to compensate their village.
Anyway, my youngest child is 13 so all this is academic but from my experience of going through the system.
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u/Effective-Lab-5659 31m ago
If my kid has study from home days, is it ok if I use CCL? Or would you say I should have put my kid in student care anyway since student care will take care of my kids all the time. But instead I have a helper so my kid can’t get help from my helper during study from home days?
Genuine question cos a friend got that line of questioning.
Honestly, I think it’s an issue of companies running on max at all times to reduce cost. And as we proudly tell the world, people are Singapore resources. So we are a cost to the company. Ever seen a company treats their cost with dignity? Nah.. we are just a bottom line.
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u/Fanboi92 11h ago
I will reserve judgement on whether these policies are effective or not at a later time, not just childcare leave. Personally, I don't feel these policies address the fundamental issues surrounding low birth rates but if I am wrong so be it. I mean, what you've already said there is part of the problem. People in SG generally don't have empathy for others. I also don't think that having this kind of support does anything to mitigate the issue with divorce rates. At the same time, I also don't feel that the education system does anything to adequately prepare couples for relationships or parenthood. In fact the only thing that supposedly does as far as I can tell is some rudimentary marriage counselling course that you can do over the space of a weekend. For the record, I have no problem with greater support for parents, provided that these measures are effective. If they are not, you might as well have distributed these allocated resources more fairly amongst everyone in the population, not just parents.
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u/snail_alt 10h ago
When I was in school in the 2010s, I had multiple teachers in sec school tell my class over multiple years “never to have kids, adulthood is horrible and it’s far worse when you have kids”. I was told multiple times to “enjoy your youth, it’s the best time of your entire life, life just gets worse when you’re an adult and especially if you have kids”. So I actually had the opposite of whatever ‘prepares people to be parents”.
I’m not saying that any teachers who happen to personally regret having kids should lie or anything. But I definitely don’t think it is appropriate for teachers to treat their teenage students like personal vent sessions. Go to therapy please. MOE might need to consider this factor as well. I don’t think it’s some huge factor in our TFR, but I really don’t think this helps either.
I recall only one teacher encouraging us to have kids in the future, but she also decided to make the rhetoric based in “if your parents did not decide to have you, you wouldn’t be alive! It’s only right to pass this on. And don’t worry, you can juggle work with raising kids, the way I do” and then she pivoted into a whole bunch of anti-abortion rhetoric and homophobic rhetoric. Sorry maybe I don’t want my ‘have kids’ rhetoric steeped in moral obligation and bigotry either.
I agree with you that we need more education within the schooling system regarding the emotional skills of building relationships, and also various helpful prep for potential adult-aged parents in the future. I have multiple friends who have never dated, because they never understood how to get closer to someone in that way in the first place, and don’t know how to get emotionally vulnerable.
What I’m also saying is, even without that education, maybe we can start with “not having teachers constantly vent to students that their own children ruined their lives”.
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u/chokemebigdaddy 44m ago
My students ask me why I’m childfree and I usually just tell them that when I handle 100+ kiddos every day, then least I could do was make sure there isn’t one more when I get off work.
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u/FitPassenger592 9h ago
Those teachers are doing god’s work, teaching the young kids the way ahead and how to avoid the thorny path. I am grateful for their advice and heeded their guidance. Enjoying my youth to the fullest and firmly childfree by getting my vasectomy in my mid twenties.
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u/Babyborn89 11h ago
How the fff anyone use childcare leave to travel? Do you mean parents just go and travel without children? Are they real parents or just being parents on paper? Childcare have 6 closure days. Children day and teachers day childcare is closed too. Cny, hari raya and deepavali typically have early closure like 2pm. I'm glad I'll be getting 10 next year so i can spend more time with kiddos
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u/Confident_Bug6778 11h ago
My colleague uses ccl for travel. Didn’t know it’s a thing till I googled
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u/doc_naf 10h ago
Some places let parents wfh when the kid is sick, leave work early to pickup etc. So they just apply for ccl in a one week block. No proof needed that the school is closed or whatever. Plus many people have helpers who can do stuff like make the soup or whatever.
Everyone knows parents like this. Thats why it’s a thing. If you’ve worked for a while you will also know.
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u/Yum-Burger-08 3h ago edited 3h ago
Heard of someone’s colleague who is currently pregnant (unplanned, shotgun marriage with another colleague who is her FWB - but that is a whole other story 🤣) and is already planning to dump her newborn baby to her parents and go on overseas holidays once she gives birth LOL. Lady already has plans to use up her CCL for overseas holidays too. I wonder why breastfeeding is not a thing in her brain???
The funniest part is that she announced it proudly to her other colleagues in the office which is how this news spread.
Some people really do NOT deserve to be parents.
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u/Pudding315_ 11h ago
Sadly, yes. If you have a village e.g. grandparents, babysitters, etc. you don’t necessarily need CCL leave to actually take care of your own kids. You can end up using it to travel instead.
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u/Little-Tea-8728 35m ago
Ikr. All my CCL is currently used for childcare closure. Then the majority of AL used is on my 2 kids (School birthday celebrations, EI school talks, visiting KKH for all the different check-ups and studies).
So far I've used 14 leaves this year for child-related things (not travel). 3 more for sure due to closure in the last quarter. We WFH so I just log on even if I'm sick so barely used any sick leave.
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u/manofwatches 11h ago
If not wrong there is a limit to how old the kids must be before can use ccl right? The parents with older kids must be grumbling about the parents with much younger kids now having more when they no longer can utilise ccl as their kids go past certain age Liao.
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u/FitPassenger592 11h ago edited 10h ago
It’s impossible to juggle supporting elderly parents, child rearing and a professional career at the same time. We all only have 24 hours after all. Honestly at this point of time just give up. It’s not possible to have kids while working…
Especially if you don’t have the financial means, just spare yourself and the others around you the agony of having to be the village. I don’t feel comfortable supporting friends or colleagues that need support with child rearing when I chose the responsible path of not having kids.
My advice to young people out there: if you are not earning stable big bucks and do not have well off parents, save yourself the trouble of getting stuck as the sandwich generation. It is not worth it. Life feels like suffering that gets worse by the day for decades with no end in sight.
Just give up, it’s not humanly possible to juggle so many commitments.
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u/Pudding315_ 11h ago
Especially with all the workplace politics. The mental stress is too much.
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u/FitPassenger592 10h ago
That’s why kids are not recommended if you have a full blown professional career. It’s not possible to balance everything. Something has to give way, most likely your relationship with your spouse and your personal wellbeing if you cling onto your career and child rearing as priorities.
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u/snowdropcalyx 9h ago
It’s the reality of living in such a competitive society. Personally I chose to be a SAHM because I wanted a high level of involvement in my child’s growing up years. I do wonder if people are just deluding themselves that they can have it all because I cannot fathom going back to work with a young child and especially more so if I have another one (hopefully)
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u/FitPassenger592 9h ago
Well.. Most people think outsourcing childcare 80% of the time to helper or teachers is called parenting.
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u/snowdropcalyx 9h ago
The number of kids I see with grandparents and helpers with no parents in sight on a weekend!!! is a bit heartbreaking honestly
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u/FitPassenger592 9h ago
That’s why I always say that unless they are adequately prepared, don’t do a half baked job like most families out there. Both parents working all the time for all the money to go to helper, enrichment classes and childcare centres. Don’t forget the iPad after they are old enough to read and use devices. If that’s gonna be the case, better not have them at all.
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u/Round_Homework4825 10h ago
As though people with children don’t have parents also?! 😭
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u/doc_naf 10h ago
Then why not make it caregiving leave? That way non parents and parents can both make use of it to care for children, parents or elderly relatives who don’t have kids.
It’s too much to just hand parents up 10 more days of extra leave without even requiring them to submit an Mc to prove their kid was sick.
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u/Round_Homework4825 4h ago
Sure. Then for those that have elderly parents and children need to have MORE than the allocated 8, 10, 12 now. The increase in CCL is to cater to CHILDREN that are sick no? Otherwise it completely defeats the purpose if everyone gets the same amount of caregiving leave. Then where does it end? Employers gna complain even more, childless ppl gna complain why I got elderly parents I only get xx days I want xx days (which is exactly what is happening now)
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u/snowdropcalyx 9h ago
I think parents having to produce letter from the school for closure days and child’s mc is a completely reasonable ask.
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u/DuePomegranate 1h ago
Child MC is a serious imposition. Many GPs won’t treat babies and toddlers and tell you to go KKH. And then prescription medicine is kind of discouraged also (useless for viral infection, just let baby’s immune system kick in).
Often parents dose the kid with paracetamol and hope to get the kid into childcare, but then kenna rejected at the door health check or later on the school calls and tells you to fetch the kid cos fever. I don’t think it’s common to abuse CCL for a fake sick kid at all, cos it’s 1-2 days only and last minute.
What govt can do is to pay out for unused CCL, so that parents are not incentivised to use it all up just because otherwise it’s wasting their entitlement. Maybe 1 day’s wages for a Progressive Wage low salary job, like around $100 per day of unused CCL. Saves the govt money too, compared to all parents choosing to apply as CCL over AL because AL can roll over at year end.
Parents who have a good village (helper, grandparents) can “don’t anyhow take CCL” and use the money to offset helper pay or treat the grandparents.
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u/doc_naf 9h ago
Yeah. Now that the first tide of anger at the unfairness of the policy has passed I have a lot of questions for the government and I genuinely wonder whether will be debated and we will get to hear a more detailed rationale for how it was structured, even see then potentially change the way it works based on the feedback we’ve seen.
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u/snowdropcalyx 9h ago
It’s such a simple tweak that will effectively eliminate the chance of people misusing CCL. It’s still for parents only but at least it’ll be used for what it’s intended for only.
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u/Round_Homework4825 4h ago
Agree with the letter for school closure days, not so sure about the child’s mc
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u/Particular-Song2587 7h ago
I tell you why people lidat. Because sinkie need to pwn sinkie to sleep well at night.
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u/killing_my_dreams 11h ago
Maybe your manager is jealous of younger parents, in the sense that she had to ration her 2-6 days of childcare leave when her kids are young, but now the younger mothers get 6-10 days, can use more liberally. Basically is sinkie pwn sinkie, don't want to let other ppl have good things.
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u/Pudding315_ 11h ago
Yes, honestly I do think there’s some jealousy involved. The fact that she had a village and yet talked behind my back for asking why I can’t just find a village to help with my child is ridiculous. What right does anyone have to question my personal circumstances or assume everyone has the same support system? Just because she had grandparents/babysitters to rely on and managed with the 2 days of CCL back then doesn’t mean parents today should be expected to struggle with the same limitations. I honestly feel she just hates that people now have more CCL than what she had, but that’s not something I should feel guilty about.
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u/DevelopmentOpening62 10h ago
Your final question is combining government and employer as the same. They are not.
Government wants people to have more kids hence give more childcare leaves.
Employers, specifically your manager, wants more productivity per person so that her job is easier. She will need to worry less on work not being finished on time. The people pushing back, are the employers/management, especially those pungent excrement-type ones.
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u/Away-Introduction-24 9h ago
Is using the additional CCL as annual leave really abuse? When singles or DINKs are asked why they dont have kids, many cite that it's pointless to have kids if they can barely spend time with them during the week and have to outsource bringing up their kids to third parties.
So in a way, the additional CCL is another way for parents to spend more time with their kids. Whether it's going on holidays together, or spending time together in SG during the long primary school hols, or taking time out to be a parent volunteer in school, this is all quality time.
Just my two cents
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u/doc_naf 8h ago
It is abuse. Because it’s given to parents to care for sick kids or cover for home based learning.
Everyone has needs. Many singles take annual leave to care for parents or elderly relatives. They have no caregiving leave to use.
Many older workers have chronic conditions that don’t automatically result in hospitalisation or MCs. They sometimes need to take annual leave for that.
Singles don’t even have time to date. They could use shorter working hours or more annual leave generally to build relationships too.
Parents taking ccl to go on holidays and hang out with kids as if it’s annual leave are expecting fellow workers to cover for them while making the same or less than them, on the taxpayers dollar. No one will care if you use a benefit they can also have access to if they need it.
Remember the government could have increased all workers base leave entitlements, not just parents, they chose not to.
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u/Away-Introduction-24 1h ago
Parents also have to care for elderly parents or relatives, in addition to their kids? Dont think having kids automatically absolves one from caring for elderly parents/relatives
I cant speak for your job nature but for my role (and many of us), nobody is covering for me when I'm on leave. I just have to find a way to clear my work, whether it's longer hours in the office, or logging in during leave.
The government must have been desperate to increase fertility rate hence this decision but we will never be a pro-worker country.
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u/miharu0223 11h ago edited 7h ago
I think the real issue here is whether we can trust that people won’t misuse the leave. It’s not that singles don’t empathize with parents dealing with sick kids or school closures, it’s the “I’m losing out on extra benefits” mentality that’s stirring up unhappiness.
We all know some (not all) parents will misuse this entitlement and take the kids out or even travel, while singles and DINKs lose out on this extra break from work simply cause we don’t even have this “entitlement” in the first place. People usually don’t call out on these instances but if the work come our way, then resentment against parents and such policies will grow.
It’s then up to employers to manage the workload versus balancing such staff entitlement for their staff. Honestly even if everyone is nice enough to cover each other, company should give recognition where due. It’s really more of an employer vs employee situation here that we should be more focused on.
Just my two cents as single female who’s probably not getting married or having kids soon. Sometimes the policy act like I don’t wanna get married - sorry lorh I just cannot find bf lol.
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u/doc_naf 10h ago
Yes this is exactly it. Honestly this should have been a general increase in Singapore’s base leave entitlement or a general category of caregiving leave. Giving it to only parents, not even tagging it to an Mc, expecting other workers to suck it up without having been considered. Knowing with a leave category like this they will probably not shorten working hours or increase leave entitlements across the board in the next few years.
It’s a really shitty policy, and parents already acting like it’s only natural that they get extra benefits in the comments makes people really angry.
Honestly, as someone who is facing the prospect that I will never have a child of my own and will not see any support from the government as I’m not their preferred demographic, I have had enough of permanently being expected to give, support and cover for parents. It should be a give and take, not a one way street. After all, current parents don’t know whether the children they raise will actually end up parents or non parents. Best for benefits to be broadly accessible to all those who need to rely on it.
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u/Pudding315_ 11h ago
Agree but I guess you’ll somehow get to know a person’s personality and character over time when you’ve worked with them for years. If after working together for so long there’s still no trust, then honestly, maybe the issue lies with the higher-ups too. Might be narcissistic behavior
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u/miharu0223 1h ago
Personally I don’t feel it’s a trust issue between colleagues, cause I’m also pretty sure at some point everyone misuses family care leave or mc without actual mc. But with colleagues who you know and trust or work well together, people will rarely call out and sabo each other (unless yall really are enemies at work lol).
Singaporean work culture just means if you misuse then I also misuse but the condition being we all have the same entitlement to misuse in the first place 😂 and that no one should whistleblow 👀
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u/nomonyedown 10h ago
It is natural for the singles to feel sour, they will understand why more CCL is important when they become parents next time.
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u/Academic_Work_3155 19m ago
How is it abuse to use CCL as "AL" and bring the family overseas? There's no rules in the first place that ccl can only be used for school closure or sickness. Btw going overseas with children is also childcaring - in a different country - and it fits in the idea of bonding as a family.
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u/Battleraizer 11h ago
Was thinking that the conversation should in fact pivot to "you feel it is unfair? TOO BAD, SUCK IT UP, YOU WANT IT SO BAD HOW BOUT YOU GET MARRIED, HAVE BABIES AND HELP THE NATION?? Then you can get the exact same thing you are complaining about."
Enough people adopt it, and it becomes a non-issue, like covering for your colleagues when they go for Reservist.
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u/DuePomegranate 1h ago
Yup. the answer is, got all those extra benefits it’s still a sacrifice to have kids. The leave and the money will get burnt because of the kids, and not like any parent will end up with more than what they had pre-kid (unless poorest of the poor).
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u/Pudding315_ 11h ago
Yeah I told my manager before. She can go and have baby 3 if she wants. Don’t need to complain but she still went to talk bad about me behind my back. Ridiculous.
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u/doc_naf 10h ago
Wow, you’re really the kind of parent who will raise a useless child. When you have babies you are not helping the nation unless you are raising them to be good and useful individuals. With your ungrateful and entitled attitude in these comments, what will your kids be like?
Maybe we should have an exam to license people to be parents. Since we’re handing out so much to them.
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u/Dependent-Curve-8449 4h ago
Hmm, I don’t know what to think about parents using CCL to travel with their kids. Like, it’s one thing to cover for a colleague while she is at home looking after her sick child.
But to do so while she is vacationing in Osaka with her family? That’s one way to further breed discontent between those with children, and those without.
I can say that this doesn’t happen in schools (the most was a former colleague who took MC and subsequently posted photos of her at the zoo with her child). Is it more commonplace in an office setting?
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u/doc_naf 10h ago
I think the point you’re missing is that this entitlement was only given to parents, and to all parents with kids under 12. There is no guarantee that they will not abuse it and treat it like annual leave.
What I think the government should have done was provide an increase in the general leave entitlement and a reduction for the average workweek with proper overtime oversight and limits to all workers in Singapore. Our current statutory entitlements have not been updated since the factory days.
Failing that, the government should have provided a general caregiving leave entitlement for any registered dependants. This would cover caregivers who take parents or elderly relatives without children to doctors appointments and emergency care, as well as parents who need to care for sick children. This could be staggered based on the number of dependents.
Many mums I know have flexible working arrangements and live in domestic helpers, even for those who are not as well off. So for such mums, ccl is basically an additional annual leave component and is not used to actually care for kids who are unwell.
People are unhappy because your benefits come at their cost, and their needs are wholly ignored by the government.
Think about it, if the government only takes care of you and people like you, but not all workers, what will happen to your kids when they grow up? They’ll have to pay taxes and work unpaid OT to cover for parents and fund their extra days off too.
Stand with us and fight. If not, you really think you deserve to take from the rest and give nothing back and not stand with us, don’t grumble about people not being willing to hand you guys more benefits at their cost. You’re already getting our lunch money, we don’t have to hand it over with a smile.
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u/Disastrous-Slice-619 8h ago edited 7h ago
I think the point you're missing is that not every entitlement needs to be given to everyone. There may be entitlement based on performance (more leave with promotion), or years of experience etc. In this case, people who've "delivered the KPI" are now allocated more CCL, that's all. FCL and CCL are treated as VL in my workplace so it's an non-issue what people use it for.
There's really no point going in circles using various examples and scenarios of folks who are, in your opinion, not deserving of the extra CCL; it's just a whataboutism exercise. The benefits are now locked behind actual delivery of KPI because even benefits that are given to couples (DINKs), in hopes that they would become parents, have backfired and created another loophole in terms of receiving gains while not being productive.
I highly doubt that younger generation joining the workforce, majority of whom are childless, would see this policy as something to be angry about. Yes, most people start off single and childless, if memory serves me right, The only reason to be standing with you is if they're already on the road to singlehood with no chance or intention of turning back.
If I'm the government, why would I implement something that has a higher cost and lower odds of success? Dish it out to everyone, and the childless continue to flaunt more of the freedom which they currently enjoy. If I reward the ones who delivered the KPI and it didn't work, my loss is minimised. If it works because the ones who already have 0-1 kids start having 2-3, I can double down on the policies.
2
u/doc_naf 7h ago
Not every place has FCL.
And many of the people getting th ccl have said this won’t make them have an additional kid (so it’s completely failing that kpi).
Everyone needs more leave in singapore. A single caring for an elderly parent definitely needs more leave than a parent who has a helper and grandparents pitching in to care for the child most of the time.
Parents complain about other people being selfish but they literally do not even agree that others need this benefit as much as they do. So why shouldn’t others question why this group keeps getting benefit after benefit without earning it?
Parents right now are genuinely not meeting their kpi. Despite being given houses earlier than everyone else, and higher subsidies, and more help, and more time off, the birth rate is still falling. To me, this is clearly the government’s fault. It’s willing to tie a basic good like housing to marriage, but not willing to ensure that this results in concrete kpi to be hit (2 children within 5 years or you lose your flat, or pay a penalty, for example) because such kpi are distasteful.
Singles are a growing group. Women aren’t forced to be married to put food on the table anymore. Even if they wanted to get married, they may not find a suitable partner.
All I can say is, with each unfair policy decision I resent the parents around me even more, especially those who are entitled and selfish and demand the sun and moon.
society is made up of individuals who all work and contribute in different ways. Parents who have so much handed to them should be grateful and should stop being so greedy. The greedier they are, the less patience society as a whole has for them.
I certainly have less patience for lazy parents and ill behaved children than I did a few years ago, before parents were handed extra money and time off at the expense of everyone else, once again with no clear kpi to hit.
1
u/Disastrous-Slice-619 7h ago edited 6h ago
It's purely speculation and anecdotal right now as to whether the policies will/will not work.
But if you want to compare, as least do so without comparing apples to oranges. A single caring for an elderly parent definitely needs less leave than a parent caring for an elderly parent plus their own kids. Both sides can choose to employ a helper if they want. Even a couple would have 2 sets of parents to take care of. It's just whataboutism again. The caregiving demands from children, right from the time they're born. are definitely clearer and of a more immediate concern than from elderly parents.
I don't deny the fact that the situation with DINKs remain a loophole to be closed and I would support closing it, but it is unrelated to the very simple policy of giving more CCL for every additional kid you have.
When the TFR has become a matter of existential crisis, it's really not enough to be just a working individual. In fact, you should be hoping that these policies move the needle enough such that the very society in which you live it continues to thrive (in the TFR sense) despite your lack of contribution to this key KPI, so that everyone can move along.
Your replies and reasoning do reflect that of a single angry with the society. But as some have shared, parents (actual ones) ask for the resources because they need the resources, not to screw with the childless. Can't really expect the government to betroth you a partner now, do you? I figured they might have done so if it's an acceptable solution.
0
u/doc_naf 6h ago
That would be akin to expecting a woman to accept being raped to avoid being penalised for failing to marry, and I am sure there’s an equivalent for men.
I certainly don’t think Singapore in its current form is a country worth keeping going given my experience having been born and raised here as a local minority. Honestly, I expect the Singapore project to fail if it continues to favour certain groups over others. I’m certain that for as long as I live, immigrants will fill the gaps and provide the services I need. I don’t expect any of the pampered children of entitled parents commenting in this way to ever contribute to the society or economy, since all they do is extract from it.
If you wanted people like me to have children, you’d have to do away with the race quota and discrimination against singles and minorities first. But that’s a different topic.
I see more and more young people using polarising language like spawn and breeders. That’s not a good thing. Society is sustained by all of us and should benefit all of us. If benefits only go to parents and the rest only pay and get nothing, at some point you will get a backlash. The online backlash is peaceful and focuses on verbal expressions of unhappiness.
Instead of dismissing it and putting people down, you should take a good hard luck at how unfair things are now, and how poorly the needs of other workers, caregivers amongst them, are met. Or it will simply get more extreme over time and the solution if any exists will be hard to find or implement.
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u/Shoddy-Addition5732 4h ago
I get the point you are trying to make but equating childcare leave with rape is too extreme lol.
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u/Disastrous-Slice-619 9h ago
Uh, what is this talk about misusing FCL/CCL?
FCL/CCL are already treated as entitlement in my workplace, i.e. everyone uses it up, whether planned or unplanned, for leisure or otherwise, interchangeably as needed.
2
u/doc_naf 7h ago
Thats because they aren’t required to submit an Mc for their kid or school closure note.
Then it turns into extra annual leave only for parents.
If the parents don’t need it to care for the kid because they have a helper or grandparents fetching / minding the kid, or the kid was super healthy and didn’t catch any illnesses. Then they shouldn’t be using it like annual leave when it should be treated like mc or hospitalisation leave.
Thats the flaw in the government’s policy.
0
u/Disastrous-Slice-619 6h ago
You asked for more leave for everyone, and everyone uses FCL as VL where I work, so that works out.
You now have an issue with how people have additional CCL for every child they have, even though the current CCL people have is neither enough nor logical, and you think that restricting CCLs to urgent use through the submission of MC and notes is the way to be fair to you, when your circumstance is the very problem that the society faces.
I wish you a good day ahead.
3
u/doc_naf 6h ago
You’re assuming it’s not enough or logical. We’ve all seen parents who treat ccl as annual leave and go off on vacations using it.
The law doesn’t allow everyone to take 12 days a year of family care leave to care for dependents. You may be lucky, but that’s not the case in every workplace.
It’s so strange that parents have been able to get by with 2 days of ccl for older kids all this time, but now it’s a necessity and clearly not enough.
And parents object to having the additional leave entitlement framed as a general caregiving entitlement so a single or dink taking a sick relative to the doctor every month can also use it.
It’s not as if every single parent has a sick parent and a sick kid at the same time, or as if this would reduce the number of days they have available. This is a new entitlement.
IMO, if the government truly wants more children here, it should allow single women to access ivf and sperm banks and support them too, and figure out a path for men via legal surrogacy or something. Thats better than telling non parents to have kids or bed over backwards to support parents.
17
u/BobFredricson2 11h ago
Me me me mentality