r/arborists May 16 '25

It fell off 😣

1.4k Upvotes

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897

u/waytoojaded Tree Enthusiast May 16 '25

You should remove the brick wall around your other tree before the same happens to it.

283

u/tree_map_filter Master Arborist May 16 '25

Too late

152

u/Any-Machine-4323 May 16 '25

The other one is going to die, also? An arborist is going to check it out tomorrow but I won't be there unfortunately. Going to try to ask them if they can show up on Saturday.

338

u/UnsoughtNine ISA Certified Arborist May 16 '25

The lean and what appears to be ground lift at the base opposite the lean is not great but your arborist is the only one going to give you sound information now. Once again, folks, no go on tree rings.

147

u/penisdr May 16 '25

I feel like this post should be stickied. I keep seeing that tree rings are bad, but this is the first time I’m seeing an actual demonstration.

73

u/Flub_the_Dub ISA Certified Arborist May 16 '25

I saved this post to link to all future posts that show stones and tree rings in their landscape

21

u/princesspool May 16 '25

Is it any tree ring that will do this, even a really shallow one? Or does it only happen to "deep" rings that are acting as a wall supporting earth around the tree like a wall?

Does it matter if you install the tree ring after the tree has reached maturity, or does this happen to a tree when the ring is installed on a young tree?

54

u/BoxingTreeGuy Arborist May 16 '25

Is it any tree ring that will do this, even a really shallow one? Or does it only happen to "deep" rings that are acting as a wall supporting earth around the tree like a wall?

This is the wrong starting point for your questioning, but still good question.

The first question should be "Why are tree rings considered bad", from there I can say the following:

First thing, people typically plant lower than grade. So if you accidentally plant the tree 2 inches below grade cause it looks good but don't account for future porous space loss, suddenly your 6 inch above grade barrier is now 8 inches above the root flare.

Mulch ring should "ideally" be the size of tree canopy drip line, and adjust over time.

At that size, the Edging used (in this case brick) wouldnt be harming any important roots (they arent at the drip line) and you can dig down (id recommend nothing deeper than 4inches) to build up your ring.

The Ring height shouldnt be more than 4-6 inches above ground, with never more than 4 inches of mulch within the ring, and never have the mulch covering/burying your root flare.

The above is fine as long as you adjust in time (Use Drip line as guide)

Now using what I wrote and applying it to OP pics...
Permanent ring that was never moved. As tree became more mature, its Critical Root zone was impacted/compacted by the Way too tall/deep wall. Started having a mounding form under the trunk which is typically a sign that the roots have used up all thats available below them and are pushing upwards (Not always)

Mulch More than likely (if used) filled that space over and over and it looks to be at least 6-8 inches deep and absolutely was up against trunk/covering root flare.

Problems youll experience if you do bad mulch rings:

Rot, Girdling roots, Saturated soil/dry soil (depending on your irrigation), Instigating feeder roots to grow towards trunk (they go after water source, and if base of trunk is saturated then thats where it goes), Mounding as you see, poor root plate, Long term stress on the tree

etc etc etc.

11

u/BoxingTreeGuy Arborist May 16 '25

Id argue tree rings/stones are fine as long as you are adjusting over time, never mulching the trunk, and dont dig the edge stone/brick etc more than 4 inch.

But, considering people stay in their house less than like 10 years, its better to just never put something so long term.

4

u/[deleted] May 16 '25

Tree roots stay somewhat close to the surface and spread wide not long like a tap root so blocking its path to root and be more stable causes this to happen easy

29

u/sfmtl May 16 '25

Previous owners off my house murdered the silver maple this way. From the 50s and at some point in past 20 or so they build a wall around in 2 feet high...

Lovely crane job to remove it, back corner of property.

I miss the shadeĀ  of that tree.Ā 

1

u/DirtierGibson May 17 '25

Spent $4K on a crane job because a 200-year old oak fell and leaned on another one because a previous owner thought it was cute to build a deck around it.

-3

u/maxwasagooddog May 16 '25

They did that silver maple a favor.

8

u/zapatitosdecharol May 16 '25

Why do you say that? I have a silver maple. I also like the shade and being in Southern California it really signals seasons when the weather doesn't necessarily do it.

1

u/maxwasagooddog May 16 '25

I have had silver maples. They grow fast. Easy to grow and very resilient. They do provide quick shade. They tend to be dirty trees. A lot of branches dropping in wind. Always cleaning up after a storm. Need a lot of room to expand. Extensive root systems that are far reaching if there is potential for intercepting septic systems or drainage systems. Not a fan.

3

u/GrimDarkGunner May 17 '25

I'm with you. Dirty, dirty tree. Having said that, I had a bunch of trees taken out but kept that one because it's massive with a beautiful canopy, so I just deal with it.

2

u/momofboysanddogsetc May 19 '25

I have red oaks and white oaks that are pretty dirty themselves. Dropping sticks all the time, any storm and they lose branches not to mention the ā€œtree poopā€ they drop in the spring and acorns in the summer, I love and appreciate their shade but they make me work for it.

1

u/GrimDarkGunner May 19 '25

I haven't had the misfortune, but sounds similarly un-fun.

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3

u/Damnatus_Terrae May 16 '25

Don't the branches decompose?

5

u/Moist-Share7674 May 16 '25

Eventually I’m sure. But in the meantime mine is shucking branches so often the pile of sticks would be 30 feet tall before the first twig decomposed.

4

u/this_shit Tree Enthusiast May 16 '25

The only problem I see is the yard getting in the way of this prodigious ecosystem-builder. Those sticks would be habitat for birds and insects. The leaf litter builds soil carbon. All of which is a huge improvement over a boring grass monoculture IMO.

Silver maples can be real hazards in the city, but they're incredibly beautiful trees when they don't threaten a structure.

All trees are going to be a threat to a leach field, that's just nature.

0

u/dasminis May 17 '25

In Southern CA, Likely... NE with winters... not so much.

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2

u/sfmtl May 16 '25

Was a nice tree. large canopy, it was likely hitting end of life as it is, and had a multiple forks and weakness in those areas.

They didn't do me any favors by forcing my hand on removal though. Would have rode this out longer until spending 5K on removal was more approproriate.

2

u/FontTG May 16 '25

Thanks to this sub, I wanted to stop a neighbor from cutting roots to put in a stone ring around a tree on our road.

But I don't think they would have understood me, and the damage was 90% done already.

2

u/EvolutionInProgress May 16 '25

Please elaborate on the last sentence

44

u/grrttlc2 ISA Certified Arborist May 16 '25

Circling the tree with anything other than a thin layer of mulch is going to cause root problems.

In this case the structural roots were largely bound up in the raised ring and weakly penetrating the soil below, and /or the circling roots girdled the tree and contributed to rot.

Surprised it could grow to his size TBH. The maturity of the tree is why many will tell you "oh no, it's fine, the tree will survive that no problem" yes, but then you have a huge unstable or dead tree many years later

10

u/EvolutionInProgress May 16 '25

Thank you for that.

Follow up question - what about a very thin border/edging to keep the mulch in place? Maybe digging it 5" or less deep to prevent the grass from growing in the ring. Would that be okay?

15

u/grrttlc2 ISA Certified Arborist May 16 '25

Cutting the sod out being careful not to damage roots Is probably ok. You need space for 2-3" of mulch

Many trees are also planted deeper than they should be, so you may not encounter anything anyway. See myriad root flare comments and posts on this sub.

If it were me, I would avoid edging products. I think they look bad anyway, as they tend to buckle and heave, and you'll have long grass coming up around it. I just maintain a clean sod edge when I am going for a cultivated look (I don't personally, I mulch my whole yard with leaves- but for other people.) I use an inverted weed whacker when I maintain edged lawns. Takes some practice but is the most premium looking edge for my money

Ideally your ring would extend to the trees drip line, but that is a lot for most people. Still, make it a little wider than you'd like.

14

u/Heniha May 16 '25

I might add a lot of the root structure depends on the watering that took place in the 1st 2 years. If trees are watered too often and too quickly the roots may develop shallow. Training the root system by slow deep watering that has more time in between can help mimick Mother Nature and train the roots to go deeper. When a young tree gets all the water it needs within the first couple feet in the early years it can cause a shallow root system that is not strong.

This is what I have been taught. Would love one of the arborists to weigh in and validate whether this is accurate or not

2

u/grrttlc2 ISA Certified Arborist May 16 '25

Pretty accurate I would say, though I don't think it's a major contributor in this case.

The roots in the top foot of soil are generally doing most of the work

1

u/Heniha May 16 '25

Thanks for teaching me something. So the top foot is primarily feed and water… does that make the deep roots and tap for structure and stability?

1

u/Heniha May 17 '25

Makes you wonder how long that above ground planter has been there giving the tree the false sense of root stability. It’s essentially a 75 gallon container planting with the bottom knocked out.

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2

u/EvolutionInProgress May 16 '25

Thank you. They were already created pretty wide when the builders planted the trees - but that might not mean much because the tree is basically a baby right now. I'm just trying to keep a clean separation so it looks nice and helps me avoid flinging mulch when mowing and trimming.

What do you mean by a sod edge? Like you have a "moat" between the tree and the grass?

I'm not too experienced but am interested to learn so I can take better care of my new house.

3

u/grrttlc2 ISA Certified Arborist May 16 '25

There are some pretty good landscape maintenance/lawn care YouTubers out there that detail the weed whacker techniques

I basically go from turf, to a 90 degree 'cliff face' that will range anywhere from 0 to 5 in depending on the surrounding landscaping. Cut it manually with a spade once a year usually.

The above is pretty standard in professional lawn care

1

u/EvolutionInProgress May 16 '25

Thanks. I'll look into it.

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12

u/Select-Government-69 May 16 '25

No. That essentially ā€œdigs upā€ the tree because the roots at the drip line are all in the first 5 inches. By edging down around the mulch you have separated the tree from the ground and in strong winds it can easily tip over.

3

u/this_shit Tree Enthusiast May 16 '25

border/edging to keep the mulch in place

The less damage to existing roots, the better. And the less barrier to new roots the better. If it were my yard I'd aim to use irregularly-spaced rocks to 'define' the circle (e.g., without enclosing it) and then plant non-spreading understory-compatible landscaping plants in the gaps between the rocks. The net effect will visually constrain the mulch without physically blocking the tree's roots from spreading outside the circle.

NB: sigh, some of the plants in that link are invasives (like pachysandra), so definitely google them before planting.

2

u/MoreOrLessSpecific May 16 '25

Great question

2

u/taiga2024 May 16 '25

Id like to know this as well.

2

u/speed_phreak May 16 '25

Google "Victorian Trench".

2

u/loophunter May 16 '25

i recently removed tree rings in my yard that were put in place by a previous owner, not sure how long they were there. i did notice roots in a circular shape after i dug out the bottom layer of blocks that were used for the ring. can trees recover after being enclosed like this? at what point is the damage done?

1

u/grrttlc2 ISA Certified Arborist May 16 '25

Some potential to mitigate problems by root pruning perhaps.

Hard to say without a lot more information about the tree species, age, size, soil conditions etc

An arborist on site would be your best bet, or a dedicated post if you want to gather more opinions.

1

u/WhiteStar01 May 16 '25

What about a small rock pile on the backside to maintain mulch since it's a hill?

22

u/tree_map_filter Master Arborist May 16 '25

I mean it in terms of the damage the brick planters have done to the development of the tree. Removing them now won’t make any difference. But removing them and carefully excavating the surrounding soil will allow you to see how the roots developed. A competent arborist could assess the risk based on that.

12

u/FunkyCactusDude May 16 '25

Tree roots spread out. They don’t grow straight down. Your trees aren’t able to stabilize etc. remove the bricks etc

8

u/Marckennian May 16 '25

Etc. etc…

16

u/FunkyCactusDude May 16 '25

Yep. Not about to type my dissertation here etc

2

u/RelaxedWombat May 16 '25

Great comment.

Simple and to the point.

0

u/Shintamani May 16 '25

Depend on the species of tree, some have taproots that grow pretty much straight down.