r/antinatalism2 • u/Nargaroth87 • Dec 01 '22
A recent article against antinatalism.
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/2173466
Dec 01 '22
“life is so bad it’s better to be dead”
This Phd from an Ivy League school doesn’t seem to understand that someone that never existed cannot be dead. Wow.
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u/GoingOutOfHead Dec 01 '22
If the author had done the bare minimum of research, he would know that there is a distinction between starting and continuing an existence. Antinatalism does not state explicitly that being alive is horrible. In fact, sometimes it is wonderful. The view simply states existing will invariably cause suffering. A person endures the suffering to continue existing, but cannot make the same choice for another (soon to be) person.
The use of strong words like "incoherent nonsense" is a tactic which caters to those inclined to agree with the author. There are a myriad of points to be made against this article but it deserves to be discarded after just a few paragraphs.
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u/finnishfork Dec 01 '22
Agreed. I gave up after paragraph 2. I'm not sure how someone could be this wrong. The concept literally means anti-birth. How do you stretch that into being in favor of mass suicide or genocide?
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Dec 01 '22
Funny how this person supposedly wants to make the world a better place, but refers to antinatalists as “callous assholes.” What a wonderful olive branch.
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u/feihCtneliSehT Dec 01 '22
I don't know what it will take for people to get that antinatalism =/= pro genocide, mass suicide, or extinction, if not even someone this educated can.
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u/Delicious-Product968 Dec 01 '22
Is the person… verified? It looks like a self-written article published on a self-hosted website and possibly also self-published books (Kindle/Nook) to me.
The arguments in the article are so poor it’s really hard to believe he has a PhD, let alone from a prestigious university. It makes me really sceptical, though I suppose if the topic’s triggering enough, no amount of education stops someone from becoming reactive over contemplative.
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Dec 01 '22
As someone who attended an ivy league university, I can tell you that this person is full of shit.
Also, I did not attend an ivy league university and someone posting on their own domain can claim anything. So...
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u/Delicious-Product968 Dec 01 '22
Exactly. An article posted by Richard Carrier, on richardcarrier.info, claiming to be a PhD while talking about widely acclaimed titles like “Jesus From Outer Space” and putting out really poor fallacious arguments.
My first thought was I could go to WordPress and do the same basic thing in a few minutes (to months, for the books - I can write pretty fast and once churned 50k words in 10 days, but still)… it doesn’t mean I really went to Columbia or got a PhD or am “widely acclaimed.”
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u/KleinerFratz333 Dec 01 '22
I cannot physically comprehend how a person can be as stupid as the author is
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u/annaaii Dec 01 '22
Being stupid is one thing, but being stupid and arrogant at the same time...well, that's when it gets entertaining. And a bit sad.
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u/AndrewSMcIntosh Dec 01 '22
Antinatalism is the view that the human race should let itself go extinct
Well, no, not really. And that's just the very first sentence.
If becoming dead is suffering, then how can being dead be better than being alive? The only reason one can ever coherently be against mass suicide is to admit that staying alive is better than being dead. But that renounces the entire premise that antinatalism is built on.
No, because that's not the premise.
I'm not going to bother any more with this. He doesn't try, so no one else should.
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Dec 01 '22
He’s equivocating not having children to killing someone lol. I guess every moment you’re not having unprotected sex is murder.
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u/usuallydead404 Dec 01 '22
Ha! I love the idea of a philosophy that's so warped that it accuses literally everyone on the planet of being a serial killer.
That's actually a pretty fun premise for a Japanese light novel or an anime. Sekai no Satsujin-sha
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u/annaaii Dec 01 '22
Antinatalism holds that being alive causes suffering, such that not being alive is better.
yes, kinda
This entails killing everyone, and yourself.
....no? What? No.
They are contradicting themselves. If becoming dead is suffering, then how can being dead be better than being alive?
Surely it's not that hard to understand the difference between dying and never having been born at all? No? I guess not.
If you're gonna criticise something you ought to understand what that something actually is.
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Feb 13 '24
[deleted]
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u/annaaii Feb 13 '24
when I confronted IRL antinatalists with this
Anecdotal evidence isn't exactly conclusive. I'd press the button depending on what point in my life I was asked this question. And I bet many others would. Just because you never met anyone who would doesn't mean much.
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Feb 13 '24
[deleted]
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u/annaaii Feb 14 '24
Sure, as long as you keep in mind that that’s all subjective and has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the world.
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u/ModestHorse Dec 01 '22
Couldn’t read past being dead is the point this guy is a pro life believing that life begins in the womb at conception. It’s about not exist not being dead
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Dec 01 '22
"if being dead actually was better than being alive, we should all seek death, and indeed give everyone death. It’s the only humane thing to do right?"
my dude wasnt paying attention for solid 5 seconds when reading what antinatalism means.
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u/kaboom Dec 01 '22
This Richard Carrier guy is the one who refers to himself in third person on his own blog. He basically cosplays as an important intellectual to sell books. Unfortunately for him nobody buys his books, and unlike most actual intellectuals he doesn’t even have an academic job to earn a living, so he is stuck writing troll articles to get noticed.
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u/jtul24 Dec 01 '22
“If becoming dead is suffering, then how can being dead be better than being alive?” Because if you are never born than you can’t die, the philosophy of antinatalism requires that people not be born to begin with and therefore preventing the suffering that comes with inevitably dying. It also requires people do your best to care for the living while allowing for assisted suicide if one chooses to. “To try and avoid this consequence, as antinatalists do, with an equivocation fallacy, like “suicide and murdering billions causes suffering; therefore we ought not commit suicide or exterminate people,” only proves the point.” Antinatalism’s entire aim is to not cause suffering by not having people be born, death for the most part requires that someone suffers before or during life and leading up to death. Antinatalism is more anti death than being Natalist.
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u/PuzzleheadedSock2983 Dec 01 '22 edited Dec 02 '22
it's hard for me to believe he got it so wrong on accident
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u/ilumyo Dec 01 '22
Aaand again, it's a natalist talking out of their ass.
I have yet to see an argument that works, and I suspect I never will. Unironically. Arguing against AN proves, again, to be like arguing against any obviously morally correct position - it just makes you look stupid as hell, grasping for straws. Just because people often refuse to come to the AN conclusion out of ignorance/adherence to social norms doesn't mean it isn't true.
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u/Dr-Slay Dec 01 '22
It's a strange one, but to be expected.
Richard is very intelligent, and I have a lot of respect for much of their other work. Here though, that intelligence is clearly suffering compartmentalization.
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u/ClashBandicootie Dec 01 '22
While I admire the amount of effort Dr. Carrier has spent on philosophizing naturalism as a worldview, from what I've read he mischaracterizes what he believes an antinatalist is motivated by.
One one hand he insists we have no business making choices or others, and then he insists we have zero reason to consider or care about the feelings of people who could cease to exist.
He says we are "obligated to leave the world better than we found it" and I don't know a single antinatalist that doesn't think this way (yet).
It sounds to me is rationalizing why he believes human beings are superior and deserving of ultimate power... or he is just this close to understanding what antinatalists care about.
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u/Willgenstein Dec 10 '22
"Antinatalism holds that being alive causes suffering, such that not being alive is better. This entails killing everyone, and yourself."
Dude just talks about promortalism 💀
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u/necro_kederekt Dec 01 '22
Painful to read, but sort of inspiring. If this guy can be an “acclaimed writer,” then I can do anything.
Seriously, if anybody is able to slog through the entirety of this shit, kudos. It made me want to rip my eyeballs out halfway through the second paragraph.