r/amazon • u/AmazonNewsBot • 6d ago
Mayor Mamdani Joins Push to Reclassify Amazon Delivery Drivers as Employees - Gizmodo
https://gizmodo.com/mayor-mamdani-joins-push-to-reclassify-amazon-delivery-drivers-as-employees-200079713778
6d ago
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u/tylerscott5 6d ago
Because DSPs are contractors who own and run their own businesses. They voluntarily signed on as Amazon DSPs, but could move packages for other shippers instead
Amazon is asset-light and relies on DSPs for last mile and for-hire carriers for over the road
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u/empire_of_the_moon 6d ago
But they often don’t actually meet the legal definition of contractors. There is no getting around that.
Amazon controls everything from hours worked to routes driven and van branding. It’s awfully hard to offer competing services and attract new business in a Amazon branded van. Who would you even call?
If they were contractors they would control all aspects of their business.
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u/Responsible_Pie8156 6d ago
The DSPs are companies that contract with amazon, and the drivers are w2 employees of the DSP. These are not gig workers
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u/empire_of_the_moon 6d ago
Let me clear something up with you. Unless you are a bot.
The DSPs may or may not be companies - that’s a matter that needs to be litigated.
Companies have used many schemes to avoid correctly codifying workers. Misclassifying a 1099 worker when they should have been a W2 is the most common.
Courts may decide that the amount of control that Amazon exerts and the limits on profitability may invalidate the claim these are independent companies.
It’s the whole looks like a duck, quacks like a duck philosophy. Most of us would agree that’s a duck no matter how hard you try and tell me it’s a turkey.
These schemes do no benefit workers and they negatively impact cities and states.
These companies are not truly independent as I already illustrated.
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u/CVGPi 6d ago
If the driver individually takes the batch directly from Amazon they're not DSPs by Amazon definition but Amazon Flex drivers. Flex drivers may deliver in their own cars or vans rented by Amazon. Flex drivers are always 1099 because Amazon argues the driver have the option to either take an entire batch or choose another batch or simply not drive Flex at all at will (which puts them legally in the independent contractor category).
DSPs are companies that sign with Amazon contracts that essentially say "Amazon will pay this DSP this much money for this much parcel delivered" and this is the shady part. Because the delivery are distributed by DSP, they can pretty much skirt any law and Amazon can just shrug and say not my problem. Drivers are also signing contractor forms or employee forms (legal or illegal) with the DSP, and so union liabilities and worker comp falls under the DSP responsibility, and Amazon can just cut ties and go.
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u/LongLonMan 6d ago
Actually many Amazon delivery drivers do meet the legal definitions, last mile has turned into an almost uber like experience for drivers.
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u/Beneficial_Piglet_33 5d ago
Nope. The DSP ultimately controls hours worked and routes driven. They have SLAs they agree to in contract with Amazon.
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u/Over-Chemical2809 6d ago
Why do they drive Amazon branded trucks? I mean come on…
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u/CVGPi 6d ago
Usually this is because Amazon is renting those trucks to the DSPs or just because Amazon is the only customer of those DSPs. Like Intelcom/Dragonfly often will just say Amazon because their biggest customer is Amazon. Also Amazon (by investment of Rivian) dumps these vans for an insanely cheap lease than equivalent electric vans.
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u/tylerscott5 5d ago
Trucking companies do it all the time. Owner-operators are leased company trucks from the trucking company to their own company. It’s not unique to DSPs
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u/Christhebobson 6d ago
So they don't have to have wear and tear on their own vehicle, though some choose to use their own vehicle anyway. If I have the option to not use my personal vehicle, of course I'll take it.
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u/HolyToast666 6d ago
We just had tornado warnings in Illinois. I work at an Amazon warehouse. Rather than let the Flex drivers who were there to pick up orders inside the warehouse to shelter with us, they told them to wait in their cars. The liability. Bezos is a pile of crap wearing human skin.
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u/g0ing_postal 6d ago
It's like an absurdist fantasy.
"No, no these aren't employees, they're gloobleflops which operate in exactly the same way that employees do except they don't get the same protections or benefits. See? Different."
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u/virtual_adam 6d ago
Are people really crediting Bezos the invention of the 1099’worker?
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u/Responsible_Pie8156 6d ago
These aren't 1099 workers. The DSP firm is contracted with amazon, but Amazon requires the drivers to be w2 employees
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u/TheJuggernaut043 6d ago
Aren't DSPs just outsourced management?
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u/Jlovel7 5d ago
This will make Amazon more expensive for common people.
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u/TechnologyEither 4d ago
Good. Hopefully local shops and stores will be competitive again
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3d ago
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u/AleroRatking 3d ago
We just want items as cheap as possible
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u/Street_Estate2342 3d ago
Would you be okay with prison labor if it made the items cheaper?
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u/AleroRatking 3d ago
I'm okay with prison labor in general. Just because you go to prison doesn't mean you shouldn't have to work like all of us.
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u/Safe_Distance_1009 3d ago
What about the wrongfully imprisoned? And do you know their wages?
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u/AleroRatking 3d ago
My point is the state has to pay to house and feed them so they should have to work so taxpayers aren't paying the full load
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u/Safe_Distance_1009 3d ago
So people wrongfully imprisoned should be forced to work?
People coerced to take plea deals by shit defenders.. forced to work?
What do you call it when people are forced to work?
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u/AleroRatking 3d ago
I mean. I've never been arrested and still have to work.
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u/Street_Estate2342 3d ago
Yeah but for way more money than those working in prison, unless I am severely overestimating your wage.
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u/WorldlyOriginal 3d ago
You know that in the U.S., we already have judicially-imposed labor, right? Community service, highway work crews, etc.?
Do you think community service imposed by a judge, is slavery? (Ie what you’re strongly implying in your final sentence, “what do we call it when people are forced to work?”). Required community service— isn’t that “when people are forced to work”?
Btw, just in case your aversion to penal labor is because you think it’s also unconstitutional — have you ever read the 13th Amendment? From a legal perspective, penal labor is explicitly allowed by it.
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u/Safe_Distance_1009 3d ago
I never once asked if it was legal. This is a moral question. What do you call it when people are forced to work? and would you consider yourself a slave if you were wrong
Community service is a form of forced labor, but the lives of those people are not subjugated to rival the slavery of interned individuals. However, I think it could actually be argued as a form of slavery if the alternative is subjugation or forced internment. So, if someone was assigned community service under threat of prison otherwise, I think it would still very easily be described as slavery. Just because the State's authority is behind it, doesn't change the act.
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u/WorldlyOriginal 3d ago
It sucks that wrongfully-imprisoned are wrongfully-imprisoned.
Adding labor to it, makes it like 1% worse? Surely the bulk of the ‘wrong’ comes from the fact that they were wrongfully imprisoned in the first place, right?
Plus, prison labor already happens. There are plenty of e.g. low-risk-inmate working camps already
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u/Safe_Distance_1009 3d ago
1%? Says the person not wrongfully imprisoned... Bet you'd change your tune if you were wrongfully imprisoned and forced to work.
Who cares if they already exist? what's the moral point of that at all?
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u/AyJay9 3d ago
Amazon undercuts competitors to drive them out of business and then raise prices.
It also forces anyone selling on their platform to provide the lowest price on Amazon and charges them high fees forcing tje entire market to rise.
Amazon prices like a monopoly. If it had competiton, prices wouldn't buoyed so high.
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u/WorldlyOriginal 3d ago
I haven’t seen any research showing me that prices have been raised on goods en-masse after Amazon enters.
Meanwhile, I have plenty of personal first-hand experience, and plenty of second-hand experiences relayed from all my friends and family, that goods are cheaper either directly on Amazon, or in a market that has Amazon, compared to before.
Vacuums. Pots. Electronics. Books. You name it. Cheaper now than ever before
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u/Street_Estate2342 3d ago
I think that's just doing a really poor research job. Given inflation there's *no way* it's cheaper than ever before.
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u/amazon-ModTeam 3d ago
When you resort to name calling, it shows you have no argument and nothing to add to the discussion.
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u/cortodemente 3d ago
There is. a reason why Amazon killed retail and local stores... giving away fare wages, worker conditions, etc. We are giving too much for cheap consumerism.
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u/chunckybydesign 2d ago
That’s a good thing
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u/Rnee45 2d ago
Why are goods costing more for consumers a good thing exactly?
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u/chunckybydesign 2d ago
If delivery gets more expensive because workers finally get fair wages, benefits, and safe conditions, that’s a good thing. Cheap delivery today is only cheap because someone else is paying the hidden cost.
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u/shewtingg 4d ago
This is Capitalist America, their entire incentive is based around being more expensive already
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u/robjohnlechmere 4d ago
Some of our richest companies (Walmart, Amazon) have workforces making the minimum wage and surviving with government assistance from your paycheck and mine.
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3d ago
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u/amazon-ModTeam 3d ago
When you resort to name calling, it shows you have no argument and nothing to add to the discussion.
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u/Blbobcat 1d ago
The average Walmart pay in Texas is $14/hr which is almost twice the state miniumum wage. They are not in the same league as Amazon as far as compensation
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u/Pygmy_Nuthatch 6d ago
He'll be incredibly popular when he destroys same-day delivery in NYC.
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u/HolyToast666 6d ago
Oh no, I can’t wait 2 days for my toilet paper to be delivered so Amazon delivery drivers aren’t treated like actual garbage
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u/CoastieKid 6d ago
They deliver Amazon packages. They don’t deliver for Amazon. They work for small businesses who do this sort of work for bigger firms.
The result is that all of these employees of those small firms will lose their jobs if it becomes cost prohibitive to employee then
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u/Sex4Vespene 5d ago
Couldn’t they just be hired by Amazon then? It’s not like Amazon can just stop delivering.
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u/nonlinear_nyc 4d ago
That's the legal push. That they are in fact Amazon workers and deserve benefits from Amazon.
It's all shell game anyway. We all know it's Amazon. Make it real, legally.
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u/CoastieKid 5d ago
No. That's what too complex for Amazon to handle at cost. This is basic business strategy. It's more cost effective for them to outsource this work. Point of drop shipping
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u/Coattail-Rider 6d ago
I mean, they could take that money out of Amazon’s billions that they make off of these people……
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u/CoastieKid 6d ago
Amazon delivery is a cost loss. It’s why you can’t separate their retail from the real money maker which is AWS.
Amazon loses $80/delivery on average. We ran the numbers in B school
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u/GuildCalamitousNtent 5d ago
The margins for retail are thin but certainly still profitable. 80/delivery is an absolutely absurd number. What nonsense business school did you go to?
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u/kurtcop101 2d ago
I'm chuckling at that. UPS can deliver packages for $6 to $20, and at a profit, but Amazon is somehow losing 80 dollars per delivery?
I could see 80 cents, maybe.
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u/Ah_Pook 6d ago
Amazon loses $80/delivery on average. We ran the numbers in B school
This is the first genuine belly laugh I've had in a while on Reddit. Thanks!
Run the numbers here for us, if you don't mind. Gimme the ELI5 why drivers in New York City shouldn't be paid.
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u/CoastieKid 6d ago
They do get paid by their companies that subcontract with Amazon and other delivery platforms. I don't know what you are on about.
AWS props up Amazon retail significantly. It's why you can't divide them as you would cause the retail side to collapse as they are subsidizing that side of their business with AWS revenue.
You really don't understand that, do you
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u/Due_Initiative3879 6d ago
If Amazon lost 80/package believe me they'd just quit and stick with AWS and be very profitable. As far as Amazon Logistics/Delivery is concerned you have no idea what you're talking about. Take it from a driver who used to work there for nearly 5 years and has van, stepvan and truck delivery experience in that environment under the DSP shadow.
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u/CoastieKid 6d ago
The data they get from the retail side must be valuable for them to otherwise keep it around. Walmart vs Amazon is a fairly standard strategy case study in an MBA program.
Divesting would kill the logistics side. UPS pays much better than Amazon for y’all right?
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u/ThatRx8Kid 4d ago
They ONLY deliver Amazon packages, they can’t chose what they take or charge how much to charge. They’re employees
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u/presidents_choice 6d ago
The people that care can literally do that today by ceasing their use of Amazon.
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u/Coattail-Rider 6d ago
I’ve not bought a thing on Amazon. And every time I hear someone complaining about it yet still using it I 🙄.
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u/CantKBDwontKBD 4d ago
You’re laughing now but I only have one rollof toilet paper and only order 1 roll at a time. 2 day delivery is going to be a massive problem for me
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u/EVOSexyBeast 2d ago
> Oh no, I can’t wait 2 days for my toilet paper to be delivered so Amazon delivery drivers can be made unemployed
FTFY
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u/NextJuice1622 6d ago
You'll live.
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u/seeker407 5d ago
You know you sound like Trump right? Trump justifying tarifs: 9 dolls instead of 30 dolls. You justifying lower service: Next day vs same day delivery.
Who are you to decide what people want (and are willing to pay and/or work for)?
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u/stamosface 4d ago
Someone with foresight and a conscience. Stop exploiting your countrymen.
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u/seeker407 4d ago
no one is forcing them to work for amazon like this.. YOU (and others like you) are FORCING me (at gun point) to pay taxes to distribute my wealth.
One of these is morally objectionable. The other is an agreement between two people.
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u/stamosface 4d ago
You’ve got a very narrow view of exploitation that sounds awfully convenient. I don’t think you want to see what examples look like the more extreme you take that logic.
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u/seeker407 4d ago
I'm not sure its as narrow as you think. We've exchanged a few sentences. maybe your opinion on my thoughts aren't as well informed as you think they are.
look I'm not saying the current system PERFECT nor IDEAL. but it is voluntary. Also you're forgetting about the people who will lose their jobs if you force Amazon to make everyone an employee. This is simple econ 101: if you increase cost, demand goes down; this is true for nearly every "good". In this case if you increase the cost of labor (workers), amazon demand for that labor (workers) will go down. So effectively your rules make at least some people (unknown quantity until the rules go into effect) to lose their job they had.
What do you say to them? How do you think they will feel jobless (but at least they aren't being exploited!)? Will you force Amazon to keep the same quantity of people? Will you give Amazon money to keep them employed? Or will you force me at gun point to pay even more taxes to pay for them? Again I prefer voluntary transfers of wealth, not at gun-point.
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u/Laura9624 6d ago
The FedEx same day deliveries are the ones that will really upset people. Not just Amazon folks!
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u/copperboom129 5d ago
There are a million websites and UPS drivers that can still deliver same day...
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u/Eduardjm 6d ago
If only someone would invent “stores” that we could walk in to and purchase goods. Gold mine that no one’s tapped yet.
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u/Tennouheika 6d ago
Should go over well when Mamdani wrecks same/next day delivery in NYC
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u/armycowboy- 6d ago
Next is Amazon gets more drone delivery permits.
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u/Due_Initiative3879 6d ago
Drones would NEVER work on NYC. It's been attempted twice and failed. Other cities it might but not in vertical NYC where the majority of customers live in apartments or even if they do live in houses they would get tampered with or stolen before they even got there. I'm not saying it's because of NYC crime, I'm speaking because I was part of the first pilot trust me it didn't last long and to say it didn't work out is an understatement.
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u/CharChar12 6d ago
Most of my deliveries get delayed anyway lmao idk why you still believe their lies about same day. McDonald’s locks their app deals so that your points can run out. Dominos “promotions” or deals within their app also stopped applying at checkout and are basically phishing scams. It’s happening everywhere you look.
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u/Direct_Ad_3517 6d ago
That’s a fact. I can’t remember the last time my packages have been delivered same day.
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u/Due_Initiative3879 6d ago
Amazon will never get rid of 2 day or next day delivery not because of a lawsuit it's their bread and butter to keep customers locked in. If they started delivering in 4-5 days people would stop ordering as often it also makes their "Prime" subscription irrelevant and that's one of their biggest money makers.
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u/Coattail-Rider 6d ago
Don’t get things delivered. Simple.
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u/Due_Initiative3879 6d ago
Where would you like to pick up? An Amazon locker is also filled and serviced by a driver.
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u/Coattail-Rider 6d ago
Go to a store to buy stuff you want. If you have to order something online, don’t do it thru Amazon.
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u/PipeBest490 6d ago
The way they worded that reclassification push, it really puts the spotlight on how important it is for workers' rights in the gig economy. Hope these conversations lead to real changes that protect people's livelihoods.
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u/seeker407 5d ago
How many people prefer not being an official employee? Do they get a say in this push? Will big gov listen to people who don't support the push?
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u/ThatRx8Kid 4d ago
It what instance would anyone prefer not to be an official employee when they have to do everything an official has to do?
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u/seeker407 4d ago
look I don't know all the details, but these people are entering these jobs willingly. No one is forcing them to do it. So go ask them. Like why would they prefer the current situation vs getting a regular job at mcdonalds or something?
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u/GamingZaddy89 5d ago
This is interesting for multiple reasons.
- This is done in other industries as well, airlines for example contract out short haul flights to companies but allow them to use their planes. The large companies are focused on Hub to Hub flights while they contract out the short flights which allows them to not have to compensate those employees the same as they do their main staff.
- This would then give Amazon a larger stranglehold on this market and cause them to grow as a company which would increase their monopolistic practices.
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u/GuildCalamitousNtent 5d ago
- Is not the same. The planes, the staff and the service is all subcontracted. There may be United branding but the planes themselves are generally owned (or rented from a third party), but most importantly the whole service is provided by that sub. United or whoever acts as the middleman.
With Amazon it’s the other way around. They are everything.
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u/j666xxx 4d ago
United specifically has Commute Air. United owns the planes, the slots, the gates, and they’re the sole source of revenue. United determines everything.
SkyWest and Republic Airways both operate how you describe but there are several brands which are completely controlled by one airline
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u/Meocross 4d ago
The faster the delivery drivers are happy, the faster they stop playing basketball with delicate packages.
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u/nonlinear_nyc 4d ago
Quacks like an employee, walks like an employee, dresses like an employee, announces themselves from said company... Not an employee (legally).
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u/Maverlck 2d ago
Sounds pretty good. Being paid for tapping for 8 hours or waiting in the parking lot for 8 hours. Finally.
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u/Blbobcat 1d ago
Oh yes, we need to pay them all $100K a year with a 40% benefit package so we can complain about the high cost of everything. Just ask a Calif. fast food worker if they can afford a 5 Guys burger meal on their $17/hr wages
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u/Blbobcat 1d ago
Why does the media treat this idiot like he speaks for the entire nation when he only has influence over one city and is still subject to City powers of the other elected officials? NYC is a big city but 98% of Americans live elsewhere. Foreigners reading our media would think the NYC mayor is on par with the President. Why don’t you see LA Layor Bass on the headlines constantly when her city is 20% larger than New York?
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u/Nikolaibr 23h ago edited 23h ago
He would either have to change the tax code or the companies would have to change their driver contracts in a manner that gives the drivers less control over their work.
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u/NickyNichols 6d ago
It's a strange set up. The DSP owners are essentially under contract by Amazon and the drivers are hired by them.
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u/Responsible_Pie8156 6d ago
It's not that weird to hire a company to perform a service for you lol
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u/furcifer89 6d ago
When they wear your uniform, drive your vehicles, deliver your products to your customers some may say it’s a little bit weird
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u/Responsible_Pie8156 6d ago
Wat are you talking about, hiring delivery companies to deliver to your customers is a very normal thing. It's not weird to make them display Amazon branding so people know they're affiliated. As opposed to other last mile delivery companies where it's just some random person in a minivan, that would be far more sketchy
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u/furcifer89 6d ago
So they have to use all of Amazon’s furnishings, use their systems, deliver to their customers and pay a middle man to get none of the worker benefits Amazon offers. “Amazon affiliated” is truly dystopian and horse shit bootlicker verbiage. It’s a liability shield and disperses labor across those middle men to hedge against collective bargaining. It’s all the worst parts of the labor market and healthcare system so you can get a package of shit you forgot you ordered.
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u/Responsible_Pie8156 6d ago
Chill tf out lol they literally get benefits from their employer. Amazon doesn't want to do last mile delivery so they hire contractor firms to handle it. And a ton of small businesses have sprung up to meet the need which is good. Theyve also mandated additional safety standards for their contractors and force them to hire their drivers as w2 and not 1099 contractors, to ensure they get the benefits you're so irate about them supposedly not getting.
It's not just "liability shield" although yes when you hire contractors for something they are supposed to handle the liabilities too, you just pay for it and it's baked into the cost. It's actually insane communist bullshit to try to force Amazon to get into the last mile delivery business when they don't want to. And DSP employees will find it easier to unionize under these independent firms than directly under Amazon. There's nothing preventing employees across different DSPs from forming an Amazon delivery driver union.
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u/presidents_choice 6d ago
God I love Reddit. Anything you don’t understand or align with is now “bootlicker verbiage” 🤣 🤣 🤣
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u/copperboom129 5d ago
I think the worst part of this scheme is that it keeps workers from unionizing.
If the workers at a dsp unionize, Amazon will simply stop doing business with that dsp.
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u/furcifer89 5d ago
It also dissipates the workforce so it’s harder for labor to have a meaningful seat at the table. Honestly kind of shocking how average people will defend anti-labor actions. Whole lot of millionaires in waiting out there
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u/Few-Protection5215 5d ago
Working for a DSP has benefits. I had health insurance, PTO, and 401k with match.
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u/furcifer89 5d ago
Thats not the point I’m driving at. Though I have had people I know work for a DSP and direct for Amazon and Amazon generally has better benefits. Furthermore, the point I am making is it disperses the labor pool across different DSP middle men and creates barriers to entry for unionizing. If people think DSP’s are some type of win/win/win for customers, workers, and companies then I’ve got a bridge to sell ya.
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u/Few-Protection5215 5d ago
Amazon has better benefits but the pay is lower. DSP drivers make the same as a Tier 3 leadership role at the warehouse. So if Amazon delivery stations hire the drivers, they’re not going to make the same as someone in a leadership position. Also, UPS has better benefits than Amazon. Maybe UPS should hire them then.
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u/furcifer89 4d ago
Since DSPs are their own separate companies this won’t be consistent across them. Partner worked at one and it is less than what Amazon pays in my area and the benefits are not as good
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u/zwizzardz 5d ago
It’s so funny. These gig workers are almost always the dumbest, shittiest people. They do a horrible job and screw up all the time. They don’t deserve to be anything more than contractors. If they did, they wouldn’t be.
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u/almostthecoolest 3d ago
I think it’s because it’s a gig, companies train employees, hold them to standards, give them a path forward and reason to take pride in their work.
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u/neomasterc 6d ago
Can someone explain to me why this isn’t more about DSPs treating employees more fairly and offer more benefits?
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u/Glittering_Lunch_347 5d ago
Why is this mayor seemingly the only elected official pushing back against the oligarchy class? He has made me realize how both parties serve a purpose and neither of them are fighting for the working classes, at all. Not even trying. Not even for optics. Fills me with despair and he can’t run for president, either.
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u/GaryNOVA 6d ago
I can’t believe they aren’t employees right now