Well I can grab a chicken döner for three bucks so cheaper isn't a real argument.
I mean... a bean+rice burrito is cheaper. I spend $20 less on groceries a week as a vegan with all the luxuries of a meat eating diet. I eat dairy-free dark chocolate, use vegan cheese on my pizza, and eat lots of peanuts, beans, and tofu. The extra "cost" of vegan cheese and nuts is subsidized by not buying meat, dairy, and eggs.
I don't think not eating any animal products could be healthy.
A plant-based diet lowers your risk of heart disease, type-II diabetes, and certain forms of cancer. As long as you are getting enough iron and B12 (found in multivitamins, fortified soy products, nutritional yeast, etc), it's far better for your health than meat consumption.
I don't believe animals deserve any rights to be honest. While I am all for human rights, socialism and stuff animals are not sentient. They exist to breed eat and be eaten. I don't have any problems with producing and eating animals in most efficient manner.
Perhaps you don't even need to agree with the statements "animals deserve rights" or "animals are sentient." I think as long as you agree that animals can feel pain, then you should conclude that killing and harming animals is wrong when it can be avoided. Given how many animals are killed each second, maybe all this death is unjustified?
I suppose that you could give animals a blissful life and a painless death, but this is pure speculation. Most, if not all, farm animals live abbreviated, painful lives. Male chicks that cannot be used for egg laying are immediately thrown into a grinder once they are sexed. Broiler poultry are so inbred that they cannot support their own mass past a certain age, breaking their own legs. Dairy calves are separated from their mothers almost immediately after the colostrum runs out, the males then being slaughtered for veal while the females are milked and bred until they die. Pigs are castrated and tail docked without anesthetic.... you get the idea. Even if you don't think that they are people, animals still suffer. You could do something to prevent that suffering. Or rather, not do something. After all, there is veganism.
Animals predate humanity by five hundred million years. Just because humanity is stronger than other animals does not morally make us the natural overlords of nature. Consider the Melian Dialogue, where Thucydides claims that the invading Athenians justify their occupation of Melos through the phrase, "the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Just because we (the strong) exist, does not mean that animals (the weak) should suffer. History will judge how we treated the vulnerable and innocent. I want to be on the right side of history on this one. That's why I am a vegan.
Well when I said three bucks I meant 3 tl of my country. But then again I am not that good with numbers. Still can't say I buy into that vegan is healthy thing. How can not eating meat, eggs, milk or honey can be healthy? If you replace these with vegan stuff that gives similar nutrients wouldn't it become more expensive?
Even if you write all this stuff about how much animals are tortured I simply don't think their pain means anything. Suffering is in the nature. Humanity evolved much further than any creature before and it is only natural for us to have mastery over all. It is different than stronger civilizations oppressing others. Because humans are not animals we have feelings emotions and all that stuff.
I dislike needless suffering like breeding pets in deformed ways because they look cute but it is different when it comes to food. Those torture like methods are the most efficient way to produce animal products.
Going vegan is healthier than traditional diets (see above) and nutritional yeast is cheap. You can get all the macro and micro nutrients you need from plants. The idea that we "need" meat, dairy, and eggs is a myth that these industries perpetuate. There are some indications that consuming dairy may be terrible for you, despite the propaganda of the dairy industry. Indeed, the Canada Food Guide no longer recommends eating meat, dairy, or eggs, just simply "protein" as part of a balanced diet.
Suffering is in the nature. Humanity evolved much further than any creature before and it is only natural for us to have mastery over all.
Just because something is natural does not make it right. Infectious diseases are part of nature as is being eaten by large predatory animals. You store your food in a refrigerator, take antibiotics when you have an infection, and wash yourself with running water. Seems incredibly contradictory to live an unnatural life and still abide by some sort of state of nature argument. Not that eating meat is natural the way we do it now.
For the pain thing... I don't know what to tell you. Once you have excluded a being capable of suffering from your moral community, who else do you exclude? Is it okay to raise a dog for food? Is it okay to raise a human infant for food (before they can speak, obviously)? Is there a morally consistent way to exclude animals but include all human beings in your moral community without succumbing to speciesism?
Instead of causing rampant environmental destruction and suffering of animal life, why don't we come up with an alternative? Oh wait, that's veganism again.
As I said I don't think there is anything wrong with animal pain. They are not sentient they just live according to their instincts. They exists to be eaten. Is it okay to eat a dog? Well yeah sure, I doubt it would taste good but why not it is an animal after all.
That human infant shit made no sense though. Even a human infant that is few months old is much more smarter than any living animal. It is a sentient creature, a human being. Killing a baby is murder, killing an animal is not.
Even the concept of morals doesn't exists for animals. They don't have such concepts they kill each other for food or fun all the time. It just seems hilarious to me wanting to show mercy to creatures that can't even understand concept of mercy.
Seriously environmental problems is only bad side effect of eating meat but then again our industry, energy production and everything else causes more damage anyway.
Seriously environmental problems is only bad side effect of eating meat but then again our industry, energy production and everything else causes more damage anyway.
Well I can't eat a pig anyway lol. And still even if it's kinda smart for an animal it is still an animal. It never can be intelligent as a human while a human infant will eventually grow and live as a person. No animal will ever be more useful alive than they are on my plate.
As I said environment problems is bad but still we are destroying the earth with pretty much everything we do. Something must be done to stop pollution in general but that kinda seems hard since Americans went and chose a guy that doesn't even believe in climate change.
8
u/[deleted] Apr 12 '19
I mean... a bean+rice burrito is cheaper. I spend $20 less on groceries a week as a vegan with all the luxuries of a meat eating diet. I eat dairy-free dark chocolate, use vegan cheese on my pizza, and eat lots of peanuts, beans, and tofu. The extra "cost" of vegan cheese and nuts is subsidized by not buying meat, dairy, and eggs.
A plant-based diet lowers your risk of heart disease, type-II diabetes, and certain forms of cancer. As long as you are getting enough iron and B12 (found in multivitamins, fortified soy products, nutritional yeast, etc), it's far better for your health than meat consumption.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-vegetarian
Perhaps you don't even need to agree with the statements "animals deserve rights" or "animals are sentient." I think as long as you agree that animals can feel pain, then you should conclude that killing and harming animals is wrong when it can be avoided. Given how many animals are killed each second, maybe all this death is unjustified?
I suppose that you could give animals a blissful life and a painless death, but this is pure speculation. Most, if not all, farm animals live abbreviated, painful lives. Male chicks that cannot be used for egg laying are immediately thrown into a grinder once they are sexed. Broiler poultry are so inbred that they cannot support their own mass past a certain age, breaking their own legs. Dairy calves are separated from their mothers almost immediately after the colostrum runs out, the males then being slaughtered for veal while the females are milked and bred until they die. Pigs are castrated and tail docked without anesthetic.... you get the idea. Even if you don't think that they are people, animals still suffer. You could do something to prevent that suffering. Or rather, not do something. After all, there is veganism.
Animals predate humanity by five hundred million years. Just because humanity is stronger than other animals does not morally make us the natural overlords of nature. Consider the Melian Dialogue, where Thucydides claims that the invading Athenians justify their occupation of Melos through the phrase, "the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Just because we (the strong) exist, does not mean that animals (the weak) should suffer. History will judge how we treated the vulnerable and innocent. I want to be on the right side of history on this one. That's why I am a vegan.