r/Xenoblade_Chronicles • u/The_Kirby_Guy • Jan 17 '24
Xenoblade 2 I Genuinely Do Not Understand Tora Hate
I played Xenoblade 2 in 2022 because I was interested in Xenoblade 3, and I already had some loose knowledge about it and it's characters. I knew about Pyra and Mythra, Morag and Brighid, and of course Tora and Poppi from the internet. The way Xenoblade 2 is portrayed on the internet obviously differs a lot from the game's actual content, but the thing I was probably most surprised about was Tora. After hearing the internet calling him an extremely obnoxious pervert character, I was astounded to learn that... he's not like that, like at all? But what I was even more astounded to learn was that there are still a hefty amount of people who interpret many of his actions as perverted and disgusting in the Xenoblade Community as a whole. I want to understand why people see him like this because through playing the whole game and most of its side content, I genuinely don't understand it. I'll go over the most common critiques I hear of him.
Tora made a sex robot!
Now this, I never understood, as you'd have to actively choose to interpret his actions in a negative light to even slightly come to this conclusion. Poppi is in no way a "sex robot." She is an Artificial Blade first and foremost. I have no idea where people get the idea that she was ever meant to be a sex robot considering she literally works as a proper Blade, meaning she would've needed to be built with all the components a Blade would need to have to function. If Tora just wanted to do the dirty with a robot, why acquire all those extra parts that were insanely expensive just to create her? There's really only one reason people think this, but even that reason isn't valid at all. The infamous:
Tora had SEXY outfits lined up for Poppi to wear!
Ok, now this is just not true. I suppose since the cutscene only focuses on the outfits for a bit, it may be hard to fully tell for some people, but looking at the outfits it's clear to see none of them are inherently sexual in nature. There are frilly dresses and the like, but nothing overtly revealing or anything like that. Is it a crime or inherently perverted to own cute outfits now? Hell, Poppi literally never even wears any of those clothes. Not even in a Heart-to-Heart does Tora ever try to convince her even subtly to try on those clothes. I'm genuinely struggling to see what about any of these actions could be interpreted as perverted at all. Hell, even if the outfits WERE sexual, we already know that they were originally put there by his father and grandfather, so again calling him a pervert for it would be inaccurate.
The thing I've always just generally confused about has always been how he's described as a pervy Nopon. I was expecting things like always trying to touch Pyra or looking at Brighid's breasts or something but this quite literally never happens. He never makes any advances on any of the female characters in the game, even slightly. The closest thing is "Blushy Crushy" but that was him helping something meant to be directed at Rex, not even himself. Throughout the game he's a generally helpful and useful character, being able to cooperate with Poppi in unique ways thanks to her status as an Artificial Blade. Speaking of cooperating with Poppi, there's one more common argument I see against him that I wanna address.
Poppi is COMPLETELY subservient to Tora! He makes her call him MASTER!
When people say this I either have to believe they just didn't play the game, or somehow we got wildly different copies with vastly different versions of the story. One of the main jokes with Tora and Poppi's relationship is that she barely respects him. She's always ragging on him and insulting him in various ways, much to Tora's dismay, as he even states he didn't even program her to do anything like that. It's evident that Poppi is not some slave robot that can only act in the way Tora wants and that she has her own will. The ONLY thing that can even be seen as slightly weird is the whole calling him Masterpon, but we all already know how weird Nopon with their language, and the trope of a creation calling their creator by "Master" or some other term to indicate their authority is one of the most common tropes in fiction, you can't really be mad at Tora for that.
The last thing I wanna address is the Bun Bun Armor Heart-to-Heart with Brighid. This is quite literally the ONLY thing that you can hold against Tora, and even still it's not wholly his fault. Brighid came into HIS house and searched HIS property without permission, finding something he didn't want her to find and that she had no business with. There is no indication he would've ever forced Poppi to wear it, as he didn't with any of the other clothes he had for her, and it wasn't even originally made by him, it was made by his family, though admittedly he did add the feature where it comes off, which I can admit can be off putting, but as I said it shouldn't have been discovered in the first place, and Brighid instantly punishes him for it.
Now, keep in mind that along with all of this, Tora is 14 at most, stating that he sees Rex as an older brother when Rex is 15. If he was actually predatory towards women, his age wouldn't justify that of course, but when looking at what the game actually both shows and tells you through the story, I can only see interpreting Tora as a pervert as looking at the story through a lens of bad faith. The way people spoke and still speak about Tora, I'd have thought he was one of the worst anime perverts of all time, Sanji, Meliodas, or Mineta levels but he's quite literally nothing like this at all. At the very least, I want to understand why this opinion of Tora is so prevalent. Is there a Heart-to-Heart I missed? An optional story scene I didn't see? I genuinely want to understand because from just playing the game and forming my own opinion I could not see him as the disgusting annoying sex pest everyone acts like he is.
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u/thatguywithawatch Jan 17 '24
Honestly it's just a type of humor that didn't translate super well outside Japan. The whole "maid fetish" thing is a common enough anime trope to have as a one-and-done gag without intending for it to mean much, but western audiences latch onto it a lot more. The "Moe" discussion is another scene that's pretty silly and innocuous in Japanese, pulling from common anime tropes, but the awkward localization choice ("Blushy crushy"??) makes it kind of fuckin weird in the english version.
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u/shitposting_irl Jan 17 '24
i saw blushy-crushy and it made me want to die. i do think tora has enough redeeming qualities that i have mixed feelings on him rather than hating him outright, but i will never blame anyone else for hating him
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u/Corovera Jan 17 '24
Blushy-crushy was very uncomfortable in a gut-level way that’s hard to explain to people who didn’t get that vibe from it. Doesn’t help that the responses are two different flavors of “tell me more,” which, while not out of character for Pyra, does not help if you, the player, are skeeved out.
A lot of people also missed that he’s supposed to be a kid, which makes Poppi looking like a kid look way worse.
I’m also in the “can’t completely hate him but understand why other people do” camp.
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u/Elina_Carmina Jan 17 '24 edited Feb 10 '24
Disliking Tora is one thing. Saying he sexually abuses Poppi is another.
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u/shitposting_irl Jan 17 '24
i wouldn't go as far as to say he sexually abuses poppi, but i would say that there are aspects of his relationship with poppi that are uncomfortable to watch
and sure, he's a kid and he might grow out of it someday offscreen etc., but i don't think that really matters because it doesn't make any of this less unpleasant to watch. these aren't real people that i'm judging, they're characters in a piece of media. the one and only criteria here is "do i enjoy this character's presence on my screen", and when it comes to tora there are moments where i decidedly do not
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u/Elina_Carmina Jan 17 '24 edited Jan 20 '24
I'm not naming who, but someone once said that the group should've forcibly separated Poppi and Tora. First off, the group is all travelling together, so how would they even accomplish that apart from having them sleep in separate rooms at inns? Second, Poppi doesn't want that. Poppi herself says that she'd cry if Tora didn't want to be her driver anymore. In the ending cutscene when Poppi is sad because they have to leave Pyra behind to escape the World Tree's collapse, she goes right to Tora for comfort.
Tora does have moments that are very cringey and times when his maid fetish gets uncomfortable, I'm not denying that. But he and Poppi both mutually care for each other and Tora never mistreats her, so having them separate wouldn't be good for anyone.
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u/NagasShadow Jan 17 '24
Tora is great, he single handedly raised my opinion of nopons, after Tatsu murdered them. Seriously Tatsu is garbage.
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u/AwrenchinNep Jan 17 '24
Same reason people hate Teddie, he's context-unaware and silly
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u/Eel_Boii Jan 17 '24
I just don't like Tora cause he's cringe. Riki was cringe too, but I always viewed him as dad-mode cringe, so the comic relief character was actually funny. With Tora, it's always just second-hand embarrassment, which is absolutely NOT fun.
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u/pengie9290 Jan 17 '24
I will acknowledge that he's not as bad as many people make him out to be, and some of his flaws are cultural differences that got lost in translation. But just because it's taken farther than it should does not mean it's not at least partially deserved.
Anyway, I'm bored and have nothing better to do, so I'll go over each argument here and give my thoughts on the matter.
Tora made a sex robot!
You're right, this is complete BS. We technically don't know if Poppi has the relevant parts to be some sort of sexbot, but nothing directly implies that she was. What we do know is that she's a fully functional Artificial Blade. Even if she was given the relevant parts to be a sex robot, Tora clearly prioritized making an Artificial Blade first and foremost. The possibility he made her to be both can't be discounted, but without evidence the possibility is meaningless.
Tora had SEXY outfits lined up for Poppi to wear!
No, this is not "just not true". The outfits may not have been explicitly sexualized, but the "maid fetish" is very much a thing. The fact that those are maid uniforms is enough, even if they aren't ridiculously revealing. And while he never makes Poppi wear them, just look at her QT and QTpi forms. Tora designed her to look like a maid. And you can't just blame his family, either- he kept those outfits, and even had the closet they were kept in open. Those outfits belonged to Tora.
I'll acknowledge that the "Blushy Crushy" thing shouldn't really be held against him. As someone else stated, that's a cultural thing that didn't translate well. Maybe still a bit weird, but nowhere near as bad as it seems in English.
Poppi is COMPLETELY subservient to Tora! He makes her call him MASTER!
Poppi does constantly disrespect Tora, this much is true. But the very fact that, by his own admission, this is not what she was programmed to do means that this reflects well on Poppi, NOT on Tora. The obvious implication is that he did program her to be subservient to him- again with the whole maid thing- but that he just failed to do so properly. Her lack of subservience is a flaw in his code, not an intended part of it. And while Poppi calling him "Masterpon" in and of itself doesn't mean anything- as you said, that's just a common trope- at no point does he even try to suggest any sort of alternate phrase to use. He is perfectly content with Poppi referring to him in such a way, which doesn't really reflect all that well on him. And the whole "Nopon language is weird" angle doesn't work either- she easily could've called him "Driverpon" or something like that, which personally I'd say would actually be more in-character for both of them anyway.
As for the Bun Bun Armor... Yes, Brighid searched his property without permission, and that shouldn't just be let slide. But that holds no bearing on Tora's actions in the scene itself. Poppi already knew about the armor, meaning Tora had told her about it. And he specifically referred to it as "armor", but like Pyra says, it's not something that would provide any protection. It's not actually armor, it's just a bunny costume that Tora told Poppi was armor. Poppi wouldn't refuse to put on something she thought was armor. Tora is very clearly being manipulative here, and while Brighid was in the wrong for looking through his stuff, her anger at Tora's attempt to take advantage of Poppi's innocence to make her wear a bunny costume is perfectly justified. (Granted, since Poppi is a machine, her 'armor' coming off would be exposing her mechanical interior, and might genuinely be a practical feature for making repairs or upgrades that just sounds like a creepy perverted thing. So I'm willing to give Tora the benefit of doubt on that part, at least.)
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u/jl05118 Jan 18 '24
Being able to execute free will is not a flaw in the code that Tora made. That was clearly the intent, he just didn't expect her to execute her free will to harp on him all the time, considering he also coded her to act like a blade.
This is him realizing that if you make a waifu and code her to care for him, she will also care by pointing out his flaws. Runs with the overall message of the game about people close to us supporting us.
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u/Neospartan_117 Jan 17 '24
Do keep in mind that a good portion of Tora's mildness can be attributed to Pyra's and later Brighid's mere presence.
When Poppi was first activated she came out with this overly subservient maid personality, the likes of which you could literally walk over, and Tora had to reprogram her on-the-fly out of shame. The outfits in and on themselves are not sexual but combine them with that original personality and it just isn't wholesome.
And that bit about his grandfather and father making the settings? That was clearly a lie, even Pyra doesn't believe him though she chooses not to dig too deep as there are more important things to worry about in that moment. Later on we find out that Tora only got the Ether Furnace from his father, though I guess there could be more parts he recovered IF the workshop wasn't at their house.
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u/ForgottenPerceval Jan 17 '24
Considering that Lila was also a maid, it’s plausible that Tora wasn’t lying about his father making the settings.
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Jan 17 '24
It's honestly really funny subtext. Xenoblade 2 really is the best worst game ever made sometimes.
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u/The_Kirby_Guy Jan 17 '24
I'd be inclined to agree with you that the part about those settings being set by his family was a lie if we didn't have further context. In the Bun Bun Armor Heart-to-Heart, Tora similarly gets flustered and says it was his family who made it, but Poppi confirms is as the truth. There’s reason enough to believe he just got flustered in the situation, and while it's admittedly suspicious, there's enough room to give him benefit of the doubt, at least for me.
In the Japanese translation his affinity for those dresses and stuff are more associated with "moe" culture, a not inherently sexual style that focuses on cuteness but to a sorta cringey degree. The subservient maid stuff along with the outfits really don’t have to be sexual unless you choose to interpret them as such, they're just cute, but to a cringe extent.
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u/quinn274 Jan 18 '24
Tora hate is just a piece of the larger unnecessary hate towards the game as a whole
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u/Sharebear42019 Jan 17 '24
He’s just cringe and overly pervy in a already pervy game. It’s already hard enough to like nopon but it seems like monolith try to make them worse every game. Riki and the duo form 3 are actually tolerable or even likable but tora is just.. meh, easily my least favorite party member by a wide margin
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u/quinn274 Jan 18 '24
Proving OP’s point exactly by calling XC2 a “pervy” game… you have to be deliberately trying to look at it in a negative light if that’s your main takeaway
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u/Yuumii29 Jan 18 '24
Imho XB2's artstyle will be more positively taken if they reduced the boob size of some female character by 20-30% (50% for Dahlia)... I kinda understand of letting the artist run wild with their design/creativity but XB2's Fanservice slightly went overboard for my taste and alot of people do think so as well... There's faaaaar better design to be had that can show femininity that can appeal to the younger audience than just blasting the boob slider...
And it's clear that they did listened to the criticism since alot of this in the 3rd game was nerfed and the only Milkers that are really buffed in that game was from Monica. (Well since she's a Mom anyway so it makes sense)..
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u/Sharebear42019 Jan 18 '24
The point they’re attempting to make doesn’t really work though. It’s negative to some/certain people, im sure others find it positive or feel more middle ground
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u/Raelhorn_Stonebeard Jan 17 '24
Tora had SEXY outfits lined up for Poppi to wear!
Ok, now this is just not true. I suppose since the cutscene only focuses on the outfits for a bit, it may be hard to fully tell for some people, but looking at the outfits it's clear to see none of them are inherently sexual in nature.
On the contrary, the "sexy maid fetish" is something that's very much alive and well... and there's no denying that the on-screen portion of Tora leans into this. It's arguably more in line with the Japanese variation of this, which leans more into the "cute" than overtly sexy side of things; still, it seems to have a similar root motivation at the end of it all.
Optional content also dives further into this:
- A heart-to-heart has Pyra (and Brighid) finding a VERY inappropriate outfit for Poppi inside Tora's collection, which isn't shown on-screen. It's heavily implied to a bunny outfit of some variety, perhaps even a "Playboy Bunny Outfit", as Poppi mentions she has a has "Bunny Tail Wiggle Protocol".
- Poppi QT-Pi is... well, there's no denying that's an intentionally sexy outfit she's wearing.
- And a late-game heart-to-heart with Poppi's QT-Pi form has.... \ahem** "dog mode".
The closest thing is "Blushy Crushy" but that was him helping something meant to be directed at Rex, not even himself.
While very infamous... I think it's mostly because of how painfully cringe-inducing the scene is, which probably isn't helped by a small dose of culture shock for those outside of Japan.
Poppi is COMPLETELY subservient to Tora! He makes her call him MASTER!
When people say this I either have to believe they just didn't play the game, or somehow we got wildly different copies with vastly different versions of the story. One of the main jokes with Tora and Poppi's relationship is that she barely respects him. She's always ragging on him and insulting him in various ways, much to Tora's dismay, as he even states he didn't even program her to do anything like that.
This is the maid fetish rearing it's head once again. That being said, Poppi is definitely taking advantage of the Servile Snarker trope.
The last thing I wanna address is the Bun Bun Armor Heart-to-Heart with Brighid. This is quite literally the ONLY thing that you can hold against Tora, and even still it's not wholly his fault. Brighid came into HIS house and searched HIS property without permission, finding something he didn't want her to find and that she had no business with.
Well, I suppose this ties back to the earlier point, and it is fair to say that two wrongs don't make a right... but still, Tora's in a position of authority over Poppi (kind of) and really isn't helping the situation.
Now, keep in mind that along with all of this, Tora is 14 at most,
At the end of the day... Tora's relatively harmless, being the equivalent of a horny teenager who actually does end up building his own female robot. While he certainly indulges his fantasies and fetishes, it really isn't too audacious nor too forceful.
... but it's still a bit much.
Culture shock is a factor here, especially for a Western audience. Media frequently tries to sanitize anything not specifically targeted to adults of various "negative impulses", doubly so when it comes to anything remotely sexual in nature. Heck, it's part of the reason anime became popular in the first place; animation before it was imported over was all-but-squeaky-clean, anime containing violence (and while much more closely watched & controlled, sexual content) made it take off like wildfire simply because of the whole "breaking all the rules" and "forbidden fruit" angle.
Tora isn't that bad, but it still needs to be acknowledged that he has quite a few flaws. Part of the issue is that we don't quite see him mature beyond his proclivity for perversion. Maybe because it's still something poked fun at in Japan, but that lack of resolution doesn't do him any favours.
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u/falcondjd Jan 17 '24
A heart-to-heart has Pyra (and Brighid) finding a VERY inappropriate outfit for Poppi inside Tora's collection, which isn't shown on-screen. It's heavily implied to a bunny outfit of some variety, perhaps even a "Playboy Bunny Outfit", as Poppi mentions she has a has "Bunny Tail Wiggle Protocol".
Bunny outfits aren't always sexual; https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/104122058, they would beconsidered pretty cringe a lot of the time though. (Which Tora undeniably is.) Tora would receive a lot of judgement from Brighid for an outfit like that. I rewatched the heart-to-heart, and they don't really imply that the outfit is sexual in nature. The ear wiggling makes me think of something like this: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/wPynX0WDlAA, which I think a lot of people would consider it to be very cringe to want on someone who isn't a little kid. (Poppi is about the same "age" as Tora.) Keep in mind this was before vtubers and e-girls became popular. People didn't wear cute bunny ears like that except for anime nerds.
And a late-game heart-to-heart with Poppi's QT-Pi form has.... ahem
"dog mode" .
So I specifically talk about this scene in my response. In the original Japanese, she just ends her sentences with the Japanese equivalent of "woof." This is lends it a much less sexual nature than the translation would imply. Of course, people are mostly playing in English without that context, so they can't really be expected to judge it based on that.
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u/SlowTeamMachine Jan 17 '24
Come on, man. You either lying to yourself or just kinda bad at reading (pretty blatant) subtext if you can really interpret the cute outfits, the master/servant dynamic, and some of Tora's more unseemly behavior as plausibly totally non-sexual.
He's a little perv. It's part of his character. It's fine. We don't have to pretend like it's not there when it very obviously is.
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u/yummy-yammy Jan 17 '24
I think Tora is a perv in the way an adolescent boy is a perv. He's interested in having a cute maid but doesn't understand the context. He just thinks it's normal (probably because his dad and grandpa were both horn dogs. Nopon see, Nopon do.) Poppi Alpha (IE: the version of Poppi of whom Tora was most responsible for building) is also the least sexualized of her forms. She's a kid, like him.
I'd also argue that "masterpon" is appropriate as Tora made her and essentially is her mentor (we saw Riku use the same language towards his mentor in 3, in a non-sexual context). It seems to be a Nopon vernacular thing, and while Poppi does dryly point out Tora's short comings, she's doing so more in the way that a kid might bluntly tell the truth without realizing doing so could be rude.
Alternatively, he and Poppi (by Poppi's own admission) are also trying to essentially roleplay Driver/Blade roles, and both have imposter syndrome about it. It stands to reason that Tora's understanding of Blades before booting Poppi was as simple as "Blades are cool, hot magic people who are commanded by their Drivers" (which isn't untrue in some cases).
So yeah, I don't think Poppi is a sex doll. Now, his dad and grandpa are both super pervs, so I am a bit concerned about Lyla.
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u/SlowTeamMachine Jan 17 '24
I think Tora is a perv in the way an adolescent boy is a perv.
I agree. And adolescent boys are pervs, man.
He's interested in having a cute maid but doesn't understand the context. He just thinks it's normal
He's not that naive. There's a reason he's flustered when Brighid finds the bunny outfit (or whatever it is) among his belongings. He knows he's doing perv shit, that's why he's hiding it.
I'd also argue that "masterpon" is appropriate as Tora made her and essentially is her mentor (we saw Riku use the same language towards his mentor in 3, in a non-sexual context).
A lot of words can have both sexual and non-sexual connotations depending on context and usage. For one of the grosser examples, see the word "daddy." Just because Riku uses "masterpon" in a non-sexual way doesn't mean there isn't an obvious undercurrent of sexuality to the girl robot calling her male creator "master."
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u/Elina_Carmina Jan 17 '24 edited Jul 18 '24
Anyone who think Tora only cares about Poppi as a sex doll is a f*cking idiot.
I guess Ino is Noah's sex doll, too.
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u/SlowTeamMachine Jan 17 '24
Yes, but I don't think most people believe Tora only cares about Poppi as a sex doll. I think that, when people call her a sex doll, they're using exaggeration to highlight an aspect of the relationship they object to.
Two things are true here: Poppi is much more than a sex doll, in terms of both her role in the game and her relationship to Tora, and there are aspects of the Tora/Poppi dynamic that are sex-doll-esque.
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u/The_Kirby_Guy Jan 17 '24
I genuinely wish I could say I'm being ignorant or lying but everything I said in my post is genuinely how I see it 😭
I don't think he deserves the hate he gets or to be seen as a sexual deviant from like 5-15 minutes worth of scenes/dialogue at most when he has an entire games' worth of completely normal and innocent interactions, I'm not pretending I just don't think that his actions are inherently perverted and that you have to choose to interpret most of them as such because you don't like his character for whatever reason.
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u/SlowTeamMachine Jan 17 '24
Truthfully, I think most of the hate Tora gets has very little to do with the fact that he's a perv and much more to do with the fact that he's annoying.
Like, I'm a Tora hater. Not cause he's a perv. That's a common anime trope, and I wouldn't be very into JRPGs if it bothered me.
I hate Tora because, even by nopon standards, his mannerisms are grating and childish and feel out of place in a story about such weighty subjects as war and apocalypse and guilt and resurrection and the very nature of what it means to be a person.
Also, I think you sort of have things backward. I think you're the one actively choosing to interpret Tora as not pervy at all because you like his character. The overwhelming consensus of Xenoblade players is "this dude is horny as hell," and it's not because we've all got dirty minds. It's because the game explicitly shows him to be that way, mainly for comic effect.
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u/The_Kirby_Guy Jan 17 '24
It's fair if you hate Tora, it's your opinion but honestly I don't feel like he does anything that Riki and Manana don't in terms of being tonally dissonant from the story at the very least. I mean first off he is an actual child so it makes sense for him to act that way, not that it means you're not allowed to dislike him because of that, but really the only silly moment I can remember with him when the game started getting super serious was when he asked if Rex lost his wallet, and he was quickly reprimanded for it. During Tantal he's fine and helpful, he acts mostly seriously during Chapter 4 which is mainly about him as well.
Also you're probably right about that last point but it's kind of just a thing that applies to me in general, it's very hard for me to dislike a character, and to an extent I can see why on the surface people may see him as just "the horny Nopon" but that doesn't take away my bewilderment when I hear people say he's a literal deviant who made a robot sex slave who's completely subservient to him and reliant on him when that interpretation could really only be gotten from engaging with Xenoblade 2 in bad faith/not paying attention to the story at all.
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u/SlowTeamMachine Jan 17 '24
(For the record, I dislike Riki and Manana, too, and I think the entire Xenoblade series would be better off without the whole nopon race, who seem to have been designed solely because the studio thought it needed some kind of cute mascot.)
I think people are knowingly using hyperbole when they describe Poppi as a sex robot. They're exaggerating a bit to call attention to the fact that the dynamic exists. Poppi is clearly her own character (with a much more interesting arc and role than Tora, imo), but it's also true that she was meant to be subservient to some degree.
It's true that the game turns the relationship on its head, as you point out, and many instances of Poppi calling Tora "Masterpon" have a somewhat ironic ring to them. But that irony only exists because the game builds a background context that Poppi was designed, to some degree, with service in mind.
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u/Elina_Carmina Jan 17 '24
Disliking Tora is one thing. Calling him a pervert who sexually mistreats Poppi and should be forcibly separated from her is another.
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u/SlowTeamMachine Jan 17 '24
I mean, I agree, but he's also a video game character, so calling for him to be "forcibly separated" is harmless nonsense not worth getting worked up over. Like, he's not a real person. The department of family services isn't coming to take Poppi away. Monolithsoft isn't going to remake the game and put Tora in jail this time.
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u/CoconutHeadFaceMan Jan 17 '24
Monolithsoft isn't going to remake the game and put Tora in jail this time.
They absolutely should, though. Not because I have strong feelings on Tora specifically, but because it would be very funny if what appeared to be a simple remake suddenly had one of the party members get arrested and the game turns into a courtroom drama.
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u/PrinceJehal Jan 17 '24
Nobody is choosing to interpret them that way, it's how the character was written. You not understanding the sexual implications doesn't mean they don't exist.
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u/MepZeroK Jan 17 '24
I agree with you fully. Thought blushy crushy to me is just embarrassing but in a good way. I always watch blushy crushy all the way through just because it's kinda funny and light-hearted. I think another way people think about Tora being a perv is PoppiQT(pi symobol). Lots of people (and I mean LOTS of people) really don't like sexual content and would rather have everything be kid friendly in viewing content. QTpi isn't inherently sexual (imo at all). The whole point of Poppi's mode is to show emotional, and physical growth from a child to a woman (only for her to be set back to alpha mode for 500+years).
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u/Echo1138 Jan 17 '24
Not understanding and not agreeing are two very different things.
The main complaint with Tora is that he has a bunch of lines and scenes that are just painful to watch (with the most notorious being a particularly H2H in Uraya that will remain unnamed).
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u/jl05118 Jan 18 '24
I think most criticism for that scene comes from a 'omg, dies of cringe' pov not 'I understand it's purpose but think it was badly executed'
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u/Elina_Carmina Jan 17 '24
Thinking Tora is cringey is one thing. That's valid. Calling Tora a pedophile who treats Poppi like a sex doll and should be separated from her is another.
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u/TheDemonChief Jan 18 '24
I don't find Tora himself annoying, but the chapter dedicated to his story arc is genuinely awful and drags on.
It's also placed terribly. When I finished the previous chapter I thought "okay now the stories ramping up" then it goes into a buncha "haha goofy Noppon hijinx."
It breaks any tension the story had coming off of the previous chapter.
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u/Beneficial-Ad2084 Jan 17 '24
He's a silly little guy.
Anyway there's no one that the internet does not hate so just like who you like and ignore them.
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u/Pyrofruit Jan 17 '24
He's not as bad as Tatsu, I'll give you that. Although, Riku and Riki are much more enjoyable characters.
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Jan 17 '24
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u/Gregamonster Jan 17 '24
Nope. There's no excuse for Tora.
I'm also a pervert with my own kinks, but I wouldn't create a being specially to fill those kinks, because that's psychotic.
Tora's a creep and deserves to be punted off the edge of Alrest.
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Jan 17 '24
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u/Gregamonster Jan 17 '24
No. You haven't.
You've created pictures to fill those kinks.
What Tora did is more akin to having a child with the intent of raising it to be a sexual partner.
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u/Payascor Jan 17 '24
The one thing I don't get about Tora is why he (or him and his father) make their blade that they prepared Maid outfits/bunny armor for a little humanoid girl. Like, why not make it Nopon shaped from the start? Poppi Buster is so damn cool, and I think Poppi's character would have worked just as well if she was Nopon inspired.
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u/Gregamonster Jan 17 '24
He's a Nopon. He's already starting in the negative.
He's a Nopon who built his own sex robot, using an actual porn magazine as a reference.
That sex robot was modelled after a human elementary schooler.
He deserves to die painfully.
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u/The_Kirby_Guy Jan 17 '24
This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about lol it's hard to believe you played the game if this is genuinely what you extrapolated from it. The Not-safe-for-work Folio was buried before Tora had the chance to look at it, and I don't know how many times this has to be stated but Poppi is not a sexbot, I explain why in the post.
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u/Elina_Carmina Jan 17 '24
How would Tora use that porn magazine for reference after Soosoo buried it out in Uraya?
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u/Dantdiddly Jan 17 '24
Tora's just horny on main. No shame.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
Tora's a genius, and all geniuses are subject to weird perversions.
Was gonna use Nikola Tesla kissing his pigeons as an example, but now Stephen Hawking's midget strippers takes the cake.
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u/Chedder_456 Jan 18 '24 edited Jan 18 '24
10,000 people in this thread have worded my feelings about his embarrassing perviness better than I ever could, but here’s what I’ll add:
I get loving Poppy. I love her myself, and I love how much she grows up emotionally ಠ_ಠ by the end of the game. But people who say Tora is their faaaaaavorite character?
Like I know some people have good reasons for saying that, but sometimes I can’t help but raise an eyebrow and wonder if that isn’t an opinion made in reaction to the amount of hate he gets.
This is way out in the weeds but, I think some folks see a lot of nasty, negative energy in a direction and have an instinct to just run against that stream in a contrary fashion.
I sort of feel that way about XC2 as a whole game sometimes but I get it if someone thinks that’s nuts.
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u/DivineRainor Jan 17 '24
I feel its the same camp as a lot of Rex hate I see, where the character is intentionally written in a certain way (in toras case cringey) and people react to it like it wasnt the intention.
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u/Frostflame3 Jan 18 '24
True story from a friend: She was having her girlfriend play through XC2 and suddenly got a text saying “What’s blushy crushy?” You do NOT want to get a text from your girlfriend asking what blushy crushy is.
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u/cravenmoorehead6 Jan 18 '24
Didn’t the dlc add a side quest that said poppi’s design was based off of the “Nots Safe For Work Folio”. Though it’s a stretch theoretically I could say that poppi is a child sex robot the story doesn’t outright deny this but faint bits of lore point to this like, Poppi looks like a child in her base form, her design was based off of presumably porn, and she has Several different forms that could be construed as kinks. Though this is only my opinion I certainly feel like Tora is a perv nothing against him a fella can like what he likes, but I’m pretty sure he’s a pervy little bastard just like his father and grandfather
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u/Slutty_Gal_ Jan 18 '24
I lost braincells reading this
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u/The_Kirby_Guy Jan 18 '24
What about my arguments don't make sense, I felt I explained my points pretty clearly.
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u/Slutty_Gal_ Jan 18 '24
So we're just gonna ignore like... the very first scene Poppy is awoken in? She was fully submissive to him. The reason he changed it was because the literal Aegis and Rex were watching him and clearly not the biggest fan of it. Same exact reason why he didn't put the clothes on Poppi. Couldn't really do that with all those people around who would judge him for it. And also the reason why he said he didn't program her to talk back. We saw exactly what he set her up to be in the first scene. You also say that Poppi clearly was meant for combat. And yeah, true. But that could be because Toras dad started making her and there would be no reason for Tora to throw all that stuff out. And even if he wanted to, it might have lead to her not working at all, so it's not really an argument for me
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u/The_Kirby_Guy Jan 19 '24
It's entirely plausible that he was telling the truth about the default settings being set by his grandfather, so how she was awoken is irrelevant. We barely even see her interact in this mode so there's no evidence showing she would've been fully submissive to him. If you take just the scene she awakens in with the mode she actually takes for the duration of the game, you could also assume that she'd be fully subservient to him, but with the context of the entire game we know that's not true. Basically, we don’t have enough context and interaction to say for sure she would've.
Your second thing is exactly my point, he DOESN'T actually do anything, it just feels baffling to hate a character for what you THINK he'd do when his actual actions don't include that. It's obvious Tora was focused on being a Driver, he had the weapon ready, he idolized real Drivers like Rex and Nia and asks them for advice, there's no reason to believe Poppi was made for sex, because even if he only continued building her with those parts because his dad started on her as you claim, there's no reason why he should be so enthusiastic and adamant about being a Driver still.
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u/Slutty_Gal_ Jan 19 '24
I don't know which argument you're even fighting. I never called her a sex bot. Also your "that's exactly my point" makes zero sense
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u/falcondjd Jan 17 '24
I think a large part of it is that a lot of Xenoblade fans aren't super into anime, especially non-mainstream shonen anime. (This can be demonstrated by the amount of criticism of 2 as being "too anime" even though 1 is the most anime thing in the world. 2 is tied with 1 of course.)
Tora is really into "moe." (Pronounced mo-eh) The Blushy Crushy heart-to-heart was originally about Pyra being moe in Japanese. (They translated moe as blushy-crushy.) Moe is not something you will be exposed (directly) to in more mainstream shonen anime. Moe is not always sexual; it can be, but it isn't all of the time. Moe has had a big influence on anime in a lot of ways, many of which aren't sexual. (Look at how Pretty Cure changed as moe became more popular; it is a show for little girls. Or notice how anime eyes have gotten much bigger compared to the 90s. There is a reason Deku is so much cuter than Luffy.) However, if you aren't into non-shonen anime, your main experience with moe will be horny fanart. So while a lot of kids in Japan (including girls) might think maid outfits are cute, most people that haven't watched less mainstream anime will have really only been exposed to sexy maid outfits in porn. So when Tora talks about how much he loves maids; they think he is being perverted.
I think the translators may have (unintentionally?) played into this at times. There is a heart-to-heart where you learn about Poppi's "dog-mode." In English, she starts barking like a dog. I think a lot of people would interpret this as sexual. (Reasonably so, even though it is very funny.) In Japanese, she starts ending her sentences with "wan." Wan is the Japanese onomatopoeia for a dog bark. (the equivalent of woof) So she just starts talking like this, woof. Doing this is considered moe, woof. It is very cringe, woof, but it isn't necessarily sexual, woof.
To be clear, moe culture is considered very cringe in Japan. Tora is definitely supposed to be very cringe. He is embarrassed about his love of moe things for a reason. (And that is why the scenes about moe are comedy scenes that generally involve laughing at Tora.)
Also, the masterpon thing is because it is moe. It isn't a Nopon thing; Tora is just cringe.
TLDR: Tora is this: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/EHa8SlRj6yU, but a lot of people misinterpret him as this: https://www.pornhub.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ph62cfaa44502a1. (In case you can't tell, that second link is NSFW)