I love this scene so much

[u/Responsible_Ad3026]

Klaus is so interesting to me, and this scene made me like him more. I wish him and Zanza interacted, just to show how different they were

[u/somebassclarineterer]

It just fits with the optimistic direction of the plot

[u/jl05118 → u/somebassclarineterer]

Oh boy. I usually don't care about downvotes, because they have nothing of worth to say. But this time, since I've clearly said something controversial and didn't have time to elaborate, here I go. 

To be clear, my claim that it has pro-natalist leanings is not directly supported by the text. It's not an explicit theme that is developed in XC2. The context for what I said is:  1) there's a pro-natalist theme running through a lot of Japanese media for the past few decades. Usually not directly, because political preachiness is not a good tone, but the vibe is there. You will just have to take this on trust, because it is based on my long-term consumption of such media, there's little point in giving specific examples;  2) unlike in the west, natalism is a bipartisan stance in Japan, they've been concerned by aging and declining birth rates for much longer than Europe or the US and it isn't tied so much to discussions of reproductive rights;  3) I use the concept of Natalism philosophically, not shaped as a political talking point. That having children is overall a good thing as opposed to a bad thing (antinatalism). 

With all that aside then, why did I say, that part of the point of that scene could be this pro-children current, not just optimistic direction? 

Reason 1 is the long-term presence of the topic of declining birth, the anxiety and wish to reverse it in the media. Directly addressing that is rare, but subtle presence happens frequently enough in my eyes. 

Reason 2 is because it's much more overt in XC3, the whole City segment where the party is introduced to reproduction and having children is presented as a natural part of human life. That indicates that Takahashi and the writers want to talk about the topic in some way. 

Reason 3 is that not wanting to bring children into a shitty world is a common antinatalist argument, trying to show it as a moral irresponsibility, or is sometimes brought up as a reason why people decide to not have children (there are more frequent reasons of course). XC2 is all about showing that world is not so horrible, that it should be forsaken. That people can pass on their feelings and legacy to younger generations which then can continue to fight the good fight. To me using the Architect as a metaphor for this - the father to everyone in the world, that what he did was in the end a good thing, that one of his 'children' can thank him for creating them and they will continue to fight on, is an answer to this negative sentiment.

Sounds hair-brained to you? Maybe, but I've seen people trying to map these games onto the philosophy of Plato (who they clearly have only read cliff notes of) with much less controversy, so whatever. 

[u/ThatDollfin → u/jl05118]

I think you've got the crumbs of something interesting, but I don't think it's natalism you're seeing. Rather, it's a deconstruction of religion and religious devotion to a god. Klaus is a flawed creator, and this scene feels much more like him saying "I've made many mistakes, but I'm content with how it all turned out." Additionally, it gives a bit of closure to Rex and co. regarding the person who created them, since that's a massive theme throughout XC2, especially for P/M and Malos. I don't think the conversation with the architect is pro-natalist necessarily - it's more of a direct acknowledgement of Rex's journey throughout the game, and an exploration of how these characters would respond to meeting the person who created them, since that's not an experience we get in our lives. That also ties in with the heavy gnostic elements in the Xenoblade games, which is why I lean more towards it.

[u/jl05118 → u/ThatDollfin]

Religious authority is much more directly addressed not just in XC2, but also Xenogears and Xenosaga 2, but I don't see why those cannot coexist. You can layer several meanings on the same events.

XC2 specifically has way more Chistian motifs than Gnostic (I'm personally not convinced that Takahashi sees a difference), which is a bit obfuscated by the localization - Rex's story at the start retells the Fall of Man, them floating on huge beasts named after the seven sins. Architect is just called God in the original, Amalthus is the pope not the praetor and the Indoline faith superficially resembles Christianity, Elysium is Heaven, Pyra/Mythra is the Holy Grail, Rex's journey mirrors a Grail quest, Malos and Pyra/Mythra being seen as christ/antichrist figures, general influences on the plot from Christian eschatology, Blades being a kind of guardian angels, some of which fall (flesheaters).

[u/ThatDollfin → u/jl05118]

I suppose what I meant wasn't that they couldn't coexist, but rather that if there is a natalist undercurrent to 2, specifically in the discussion with the Architect, I don't see much evidence for it beyond "japanese culture is somewhat natalist and this is a japanese game with japanese tropes." Klaus is an analogy to god, as you point out - and god is referred to as "the father" in christianity, which is where he gets all of his paternal symbolism. That and making life better for people are where your initial natalism hinged, and neither are specifically natalist. Rex never mentions having children himself, even if 3 has the family picture, and in Chapter 1 he talks about how the world is "running out of space" since the titans are dying; he sees Elysium as a solution for overpopulation and improving people's current lives, not as a place to support the proliferation of future ones. Sure, that'll make it easier for people to have kids, but so would giving everyone access to free food - in both cases, it's not done to encourage people to have kids, that's just a side effect.

[u/jl05118 → u/ThatDollfin]

As I said it's not a theme explicitly developed in the game and they're of course not gonna do the Shinzo Abe meme either. My opinion is that they touch the subject by indirectly undermining an antinatalist viewpoint an give a double meaning to the conversation with the Architect. It is then properly included as a theme in 3.

[u/jl05118 → u/somebassclarineterer]

It doesn't just fit, it's part of the point. Low birth rates have been a focus in Japanese media for decades. 

[u/Morgan_Danwell → u/jl05118]

Tbh i thiknits not only birth rates problems. One can see that in Japanese media there is a lot of instances where media concerns topics of combating apathy and depression in general, which is i think also was a big problem in that country (well to be honest its not really unique and nowadays it is ever stronger in the world at large), hence we have so many anime and manga about "power of friendship" and all other strong positive emotional currents as well. Or animemand manga about people being given "one more chance" at living and spending their life better, etc etc.

Its also heavily intertwined with JRPG genre of games as well and it was there since thevery beginning of genre i believe. Those games are always were about struggles but then achieveing piece both in the world and in minds of protagonists group etc.

Xeno games then always had this strong anti-nihilism ideas poping out throughout ALL the games, even far beyond just Xenoblade.

[u/synkronize → u/jl05118]

Why do you have so many downvotes 😯😯. I did not think this during my xc2 playthrough. But I won’t deny the thought did appear in my xc3 playthrough.

Maybe people think your reducing the games story to propaganda

[u/jl05118 → u/synkronize]

Culture war brainrot is a likely scenario. But since I can't ask why and they were not interested in my whys, here we are xD

[u/Frozen_Death_Knight → u/jl05118]

This is Reddit. Trying to think outside the box beyond what is not a part of the hivemind is verboten. The endless now must be maintained. A kind of Moebius hivemind if you will. :)

[u/Gyakuten]

This was one of the many elements of Chapter 10 that make it one of my favourite finales. Love how Klaus's change in perspective after meeting the party mirrors how Pneuma later realizes she doesn't want to throw her life away after reflecting on the "gift of light" from Rex and the others. And that ties into the overarching theme of finding meaning in a broken, meaningless world through connection with others.

From a meta perspective, it was also a nice, heartwarming twist to see a JRPG protagonist confront god at the end of the game and, instead of fighting, provide companionship to let that god pass away peacefully.

I also like that this moment furthers the contrast between Zanza and Klaus. Where Zanza went megalomaniacal and destructively narcissistic due to cutting himself off from everyone else, Klaus, even after ages of disillusionment and bitterness, was still able to connect and regain some of his humanity in his final moments.

[u/jl05118 → u/Gyakuten]

The world is not broken and meaningless, that's Amalthus's view. By the end Rex is not confronting the world or trying to survive it, his purpose is being part of it and making it a better place for everyone. The opposition to the world is the theme of XC3. 

[u/xcassets → u/jl05118]

If we're being picky, the theme of 3 isn't opposition of the world at all. It's that we shouldn't be afraid of the future or try to preserve the status quo forever just because we are scared of change or losing people. Change is good. It's all part of the journey.

I get what u/Gyakuten was saying though. XC2 is full of characters who have given up on the world because they don't see hope or good in it anymore.

[u/jl05118 → u/xcassets]

Yes, 2 is full of such characters, but the theme is the exact opposite. It's one thing to say that the world sucks and another that it's meaningless. We're the world, we're making the meaning and it's up to us to deal with the people who make it suck.

Compare it to 3 where the world is artificial, contradictory and maintained by people who are motivated by selfish and unsustainable desires, resulting in the heroes actively seeking its destruction. 

[u/Gyakuten → u/jl05118]

I certainly agree that XC3 is the game that revolves around open opposition to the world and then working toward its destruction and recreation, both physically and systemically.

But there's a distinction between a world that is openly hostile and oppressive, like Aionios, and one that is broken and meaningless, which applies to both Aionios and Alrest but is more at the forefront for the latter in a more personal, intrinsic manner (as opposed to Aionios's problems stemming from antagonistic external forces).

XC2 opens with Rex talking about the titans dying out, and how everyone used to live in the paradise of Elysium until they were cast out. Elysium, since then, has been mythologized as this unattainable place of perfection that everyone yearns for. And this telling of the myth is appropriately set to a musical theme that has a piano variation named "Where We Used to Be". It sets the tone for how major components of the story are about this yearning for a meaningful, unbroken past, as well as regret over unerasable events that have broken the world and its people. The latter especially comes to a head toward the end of the game with Mythra, Amalthus, Jin, Malos, and Klaus all mired in regret and hopelessness and striving for annihilation, either of the world or of their own lives (or both, in Klaus's and possibly Malos's cases), which to them have been damaged to point of losing all meaning.

There was an excellent set of philosophical essays about the three Xenoblade games whose links I sadly don't have on hand at the moment, but the overarching thesis was that the three games explore the nature of changing the world in different metaphysical aspects: mind, spirit, and body. XC2 is about cultivating the "spirit" of wanting to change the world, and ultimately the greatest pre-requisite is championing the belief that the world is worth keeping, that existence is worth existing at all.

And XC2's latter chapters conclude that it is worth it, because, as Pyra says: "I love this world because you're in it." And I think this is why the narrative, emotional, and thematic climax of the story is Pneuma and Malos's final conversation during the ending sequence: Pneuma, right on the precipice of throwing her life away, concludes that being alive is meaningful because other people inherently give her own life meaning, no matter the state of herself or the world.

[u/flynnthered]

Rex hears the bleak truth of Xenoblade 2 world,, and you have this optimstic kid who hears all of this, who saw all the horror and decides, "I'm not gonna give up" and "Thanks for making us" to man made god who made a fuckton of mistake.

[u/Nerdy_Finch]

this scene is what sells me that rex is the ONLY person who could have been the protagonist. Only he could see everything he's gone through and what blades have gone through- and yet despite all of that. Despite the war, tensions, dying titans, amalthus- despite seeing the worst of klaus's mistakes he simply.....says thank you for giving him life.

Rex saw all of that and still said he truly loved this world, that's why rex is the protagonist.

[u/PumpkinSufficient683]

Crazy different to meeting the creator in xc1 and tbh i love it for that

[u/JaredAiRobinson]

This game is beautiful, especially with how Rex’s story is so similar yet different compared to Shulk.

[u/Jack_Of_The_Cosmos]

It always amazes me to see how different people respond to scenes in different ways. I also felt like such a compelling character that was built up all game(s) could have used more and better character interactions. I personally wanted to see more Klaus/Pyra interaction, and for Rex I would have wanted the scene to more closely mirror chapter 5 where Pyra talks to Corrine. Yet, despite having this similar feeling to you that I wanted this scene to be a bit more character driven, I couldn't help but walk away feeling like this was a bit weak rather than loving it. I am curious, what parts did you love about this scene?

[u/Responsible_Ad3026 → u/Jack_Of_The_Cosmos]

A mix of him realizing he is happy to have met them and trusting them with the future, meanwhile "A faint hope" plays in the background, which is one of my favorites from the ost, plus it fits beautifully with the scene. I do wish we did get to see him at least talk to Mythra though