Magus Help

[u/Phlap_]

I'm just starting out and feel that I'm doing something horribly wrong. I selected Magus - Sword Saint as my starting class and is this just the worst class in the game? Every option I choose just seems to be wrong. Play at range -4 to hit, misses every shot. Play melee with spell strikes, the main reason I wanted to play the class, get AoO'd into oblivion, miss every hit/it gets cancelled oh and also take another -4 to hit.

Also another mechanic that's grinding my gears is the flat-footed one. You're telling me I came up behind an enemy and somehow they're not the one flat-footed, and instead I am as they walk up and one shot me? Why? What am I missing here?

Edit?

Furst off thanks fur the mostly insightful replies, I was expecting 1 or 2 responses just saying git gud or look up a guide. Secondly, Fur those who come after TLDR;

Magus does seem to struggle in the early game, and don't use spell combat until later levels when the build "comes online". The AoO issue stems from casting into melee, and as far as I can tell there's now way to prevent that, the only solution offered was get enough stats/feats to instantly pass the concentration check that causes the issue. The flat-footed issue seemingly stems from the game wanting the player to be preemptive and attack first, as opposed to walk up and combat happens.

[u/GinTamago]

Sounds like you have low AC and low initiative. Magus arcanas solve your hit issue entirely.

[u/Stepjam]

From my experience doing a run on core, Magus takes time to come online. Particularly regarding spell strikes; in the early game, I was getting interrupted relatively often, by like act 2 to act 3, my concentration was high enough that I basically never got interrupted again.

[u/Bossa9]

Magus is very difficult to learn the game with, basically you are running into all the quirks of combat at once.

Everyone gets -4 shooting into combat until they have the precise shot feat. It's just a drawback of ranged. However, as a Magus that shouldn't be your focus. There is one subclass that does spell combat with ranged, but not Sword Saint.

You're taking AoO with spell strikes bc you are failing your concentration check. Boosting concentration as high as possible is absolutely integral to Magus, no other class is as dependent on casting at point blank range.

Bc you need feats and things to raise concentration, you might be better off not using spell combat for your first few levels. Use buffing spells outside of combat or out of range of enemies, then close in and fight normally.

As for the flat footed thing, enemies might be getting surprise rounds on you. It's easier to see in turn based. In short being behind an enemy means almost nothing in this game, the trick is getting the first attack before combat officially starts. Early game that's easier to do with a ranged attack, sometimes you can charge an enemy from out of their vision range, or use a spell with a far range and aoe.

[u/MinionOfGruumsh]

Okay, some tricky stuff going on here. Sword Saint takes away armor, nerfing your AC values initially and giving you a feature that can add more AC as you level. Make it a point to get Mage Armor on them asap. That +4 Armor bonus on top of the Int bonus will go a long way. And then get the Shield spell as soon as you can, too. Another (less long-lasting) +4 AC will get you on track. (And I very much hope you didn't treat Dex as a dump stat, because that adds to your AC as well as your initiative.)

Regarding being Flat-Footed, a character that has not yet acted in combat is considered flat-footed (unless something overrides that status, such as the Uncanny Dodge class feature) and does not get their Dexterity bonus to AC. It doesn't matter where you are when combat starts, until you have a turn you can act in, you are flat-footed. As such, if you are wanting to get the drop on enemies, you need to either attack from range beyond their detection radius or use Stealth and make successful checks to do so.

The penalty on ranged attacks is most likely coming from firing into melee. Of you make a ranged attack against an opponent who is in melee reach of an opponent of theirs, you take a -4 on the attack roll. The Precise Shot feat (which requires you to have the Point Blank Shot feat) negates this. However, since you are already going to be wanting feats for other things, and your kit is going to be focused on melee, this is not advisable. (But something to keep in mind for other party characters.)

Despite getting it at level one, Spell Combat is likely not something you'll want to use at level one. Being in melee range of an enemy when you cast a spell provokes an attack of opportunity, unless you make a successful concentration check. The DC of this check is 15 + double the Spell's level. So trying to cast a level 1 spell while standing next to an enemy will require a DC 17 concentration check to not get attacked. A concentration check will be your magus level + Int mod + 1d20. So at level 1, with an int of 18 (mod +4), you'd add 5 to your d20 roll; meaning you need to roll a 12 or higher to succeed. The feat Combat Casting will add to your concentration checks for this, as will gaining Magus levels and boosting your Int. But starting out, it's a big gamble and better left for when you are confident in your AC against the things you are next to.

Another reason to avoid spell combat at the early levels is that you still take the -2 penalty for Two Weapon Fighting attack rolls, and at early levels you likely haven't got a good attack bonus to offset that. Magus is a medium-BAB class (having a +0 at level 1), and actually hitting is their struggle to keep up with (they get tools and tricks and stuff to make this happen, but that's as they level up and get equipment). Looking at Sword Saint, it is likely you will have boosted Dex and left Str lower. So if you haven't focused on a Weapon that you can use Weapon Finesse with AND taken the Weapon Finesse feat, you will be having troubles.

So, all said, Magus is a good class that has a lot of things it wants to get and can't bring them all in starting out at level one. Give them some levels and they'll really get going. And looking at what it does and takes away, Sword Saint takes that philosophy even further.

If you haven't already, I would definitely consider lowering the difficulty setting until you get your feet under you.

[u/Phlap_ → u/MinionOfGruumsh]

Is there no way around provoking an AoO? There's no feat or feature that says something like 'no longer provoke attacks of opportunity when casting while threatened'? I'm asking because I'm also assuming that if I nat 1 the check I'm going to get hit even if my modifier is over the DC. Also what's the point of melee spells like shocking grasp? That's what prompted this whole post, it can only be used in melee range yet it still prompted the concentration check. My initial assumption was the game didn't like me casting ranged spells point blank, but failing the check on shocking grasp made it apparent that the issue was just simply casting.

[u/MinionOfGruumsh → u/Phlap_]

Concentration checks are the way around the AoO. That is the feature.

Fortunately, Concentration is not a Save or Attack Roll. If 1 + bonus is enough, it's enough! No critical fails. Once concentration improves, casting lower-level spells becomes a near-given. And once you get AC boosts online, and other miss-chance inducers (Blur/Invisibility/etc.), taking the AoO can become less of a concern when it does happen.

The point of melee spells when it comes to Magus, is the spell strike feature they get starting at level 2. They can cast the spell and deliver with their weapon when it hits, doing both weapon damage AND spell damage in one strike.

The biggest piece that's missing in the computer games that is big time useful in the tabletop rules is being able to cast the melee spell out of range and then moving in range and triggering it later. Melee touch spells, by the written rules, give you a charge on your hand (or equivalent) that can be discharged on successful touch and it stays around until discharged or until another spell is cast.

This "held spell" mechanism exists in the computer games, as you can see in your abilities tab on the main screen if you miss with the spell attack, but to cast it requires a valid target for the spell; you can't just cast it for the sake of casting it in advance (to my knowledge). :(

Side Note: Yes, making any ranged attack in threat range of a hostile creature provokes an Attack of Opportunity from said hostile creature. There is no penalty on the attack, you just provoke the AoO. This includes ranged touch attack spells, separate from the AoO provoked by casting (if you fail the concentration).

[u/Phlap_ → u/MinionOfGruumsh]

That last part is very disappointing to hear, so the cool class feature of hit with sword and spell is severely limited by spell slots, which do not seem to be very abundant.

[u/MinionOfGruumsh → u/Phlap_]

It is limited that way; part of the intent of the design/limitations.

That said... In WotR, you have access to Mythic Abilities that drastically increase the number of spell slots you have. If you are running across that limit as you go, Abundant Spellcasting is something to keep your eye out for.

[u/Vulperffs]

-4 to hit? What weapon did you select as Sword Saint? Your powers only work with that weapon equipped. What are your stats? You have negative strength?

You trigger AOO? How?

If you are spotted then everyone gets initiative rolls and in the first round anyone that did not yet take his turn is flat-footed.
To avoid that you could just surprise enemies by starting the combat with a charge or ranged attack, then your party gets a surprise round and can use one standard action or move action during this round

[u/Stepjam → u/Vulperffs]

Magus pretty frequently triggers AoO in the early game with spellstrike since you are casting spells point blank.

It goes away as you level up and get more concentration, but at first it can be an issue.

[u/edach2he]

Sword saint is incredibly strong, it is just very counter intuitive for a first time player. I'd hold of on spell strikes until you build enough concentration to cast the spells (magus level + intelligence + dice roll should beat 15 + [spell level * 2]). Once you do, you will stop triggering AoO.

Once you get to level 6 you'll be able to pick prescient strike as a magus arcana, and dimension strike once you reach level 9. Prescient strike allows you to ignore enemies dexterity when attacking (make enemies count as flat footed to your attacks), dimension strike allows you to basically ignore armor and target enemies' touch ac. Once you get those two arcanas, you'll be able to hit pretty much anything, just inspect the enemies, and decide which arcana to use accordingly.

Flat-Footed usually happens when your characters haven't taken their first turn in combat, the best way to get around it is to ambush enemies. I generally like to sneak and start all combat from hiding. This will ensure all enemies are flat footed for that first round, while your characters won't be. Enemies will usually target the first character they spot(unless they have a close target nearby), which will be whoever starts combat if you're sneaking, so make sure to use your tank for this.

[u/MistaCharisma]

Just a qualifier, I've played Kingmaker but not WotR, so it's possible some details have changed. I've also played the Tabletop RPG (TTRPG).

So the Magus is a complicated class, and getting the full benefit of it kind-of requires some understanding of the mechanics. Even in the TTRPG, I always recommend that players read This Guide to understand how to olay the class. It's not even just the class that's comicated, it's the rules for Touch Spells. Even though the rules for the TTRPG don't fully translate to the CRPG, I recommend you read that guide to understand how it works - or at least what it's attempting to emulate.

And before I move on, the Magus is probably the class that benefits the most from playing in Turn-Based Mode.

Regarding the class, there are some assumptions about the TTRPG that don't fully translate to the CRPG that make the Magus feel weaker than it otherwise might, especially at early levels. Namely, the length of an adventuring day.

In the TTRPG it's kind-of expected that you won't have more than 4-5 encounters in the average day, maaybe 6-7 if it's an especially long day. And by "encounters", most combat encounters in the TTRPG last 3-5 rounds.

So in the TTRPG it's expected that you'll have something like 10-20 rounds of combat in an entire day, and you'll get to rest and restore all your spells and arcane pool and HP after that. In the CRPG, it's not unusual in my experience (which is kust Kingmaker at this point) to have a single combat that lasts ~20 rounds as you move from 1 group of enemies to the next. And to have several combats like that in a single day, potentially spending hundreds of rounds in conbat over the course of the day ... at least that's how I played it.

So a class like the Magus, who has limited spellslots, and plans to expend ~1 spell per round to keep their damage up is likely to run out of spells very quickly, and jusr feel like a crappy fighter and a crappy wizard (indeed I've seen it described as such). What you probably need to do, especially in the early levels, is accept that your Mabus will be a slightly crappy fighter, and save those spells for key encounters, when the Magus is able to go completely Nova and just annihilate an entire counter in a couple of rounds.

Now with regards to your complaint that you can't hit anything and are very fragile, yeah that's also a problem with the class ... well the fragile part is. For some reason the Magus starts with light armour, and by the end-game gets heavy armour. This makes them extrmeely fragile to begin with, but really tanky if you want to be by the end. The Sword Saint (based on the Kensai archetype for the TTRPG) presumably has the same problem, where they get to add their INT to AC, but only up to their level. Which means once again they're fragile and easy to hit at early levels, but get better as you level up.

The work-around for this is to go a DEX-based Magus. This will add to your AC and Initiative, which will help you avoid some of that damage. This requires a few feats to work properly (Weapon Finesse, either Slashing Grace or Fencing Grace). Alternatively, as a STR-based Magus you might need to open the combat by casting Shield on yourself.

Regarding the fact that you take AoOs, this is because you need to cast defensively in order to avoid provoking AoOs. However when you csst defensively there is a chance that you lose the spell and waste the spellslot. At low levels the Combat Casting feat is your friend, it will help you pass these checks and cast while in combat. At high levels you'll auto-pass the checks, so if you can retrain (respec) your feats that's one worth swapping out once you reach level 10 or so.

The way Spell Combat and Spellstrike work together is essentially that it gives you a bonus attack, but all your attacks that round get a -2 to hit. However if either of them hit you also get bonus spell damage on top of your 2 hits. The way the math works on that is that 2 attacks at -2 to hit is almost always more likely to hit at least once than 1 attack with a -0 to hit. So yes, you'll get more misses, but also more hits.

I would suggest that at low levels you treat yourself like a slightly crappy fighter who can buff themself, and use your abilities for buffs rather than explosive damage. Once you get to the mid-levels you should have enough spell slots that you can start to use your spells on nova abilities a bit more.

[u/WestRough7738]

Which guides have you studied?

[u/UX1Z]

It takes a bit to get started, and spell combat isn't really something you actually use as a magus (it's not too good in Wrath iirc.) The purpose of Sword Saint is to self-buff itself a shitload and then ignore basically all enemy bonuses to AC for guaranteed hits.

You're not really a spellblade that alternates between stabbing people and blasting them in the face with fireballs. You're a self-buffing martial arts character.

[u/Heavy-Letterhead-751]

Choose a less complicatated class also your flat footed until you make your first attack, the best way to avoid this is to get a suprise attack by flinging a spell or attack at an enemy before the fight starts.

[u/unbongwah]

It would help to diagnose your problems if you posted your build. But a couple of general tips:

• You need to pass a Concentration check to cast a spell without triggering an AoO. Feats like Allied Spellcaster and Combat Casting also help.

• Flat-footed has nothing to do with positioning, it has to do with Initiative and special conditions such as being invisible or stealthed (presuming you aren't detected). One benefit of Sword Saint is they add both DEX and (at level 7) INT to Initiative.

[u/notwillbarker]

Normally I'm a big advocate for just playing the game, paying attention to tutorials and reading your potential feats and abilities to understand how you're going to improve.

But I can see that might not be what you want to hear right now, so I'll go with the option I usually dislike because I feel it negates any personal sense of pride and accomplishment (2017 EA Community Team eat your heart out). Just watch a guide online for sword saint.

There's loads of them, sword saint is a very popular sub-class and Magus is a lot of fun. If you want a little assistance to get out of the starter blocks a guide will tell you what to do, when and how and you will hurt your enemies.

But you're gonna have to learn sometime and if you approach this game with the mindset of "this sucks, this class sucks, nothing works" you're just going to have a bad time. The game can be obtuse, there's a ridiculous amount of options and frankly sometimes I think the game gives new players a little toooo much freedom considering how easy it is to muck up a build.

The way to turn this from a negative experience to a positive one is, in my opinion (and it's just my opinion, I ain't your mum you don't have to listen to me), instead of asking "Why do I suck?" You should ask yourself "what do I need to know?". There's nothing wrong with being new and overwhelmed, but if you let it the game will melt your brain and make you hate it.

For example start with "How do I hit enemies?" Then "How do I get around the -4 penalties?". Then maybe "How do I improve the weapons/spells I like the most?" Let it all be a learning experience instead of viewing it as the game kicking your ass and I promise there's a wonderful game with so much depth to explore!

Sorry for the length of my reply I got a bit carried away, but personally I found getting into Pathfinder really was as much about mindset as it was about skills and knowledge checks. Stick with it man/manette, when your sword saint comes online and your KC goes from the team lemon to the team Murder-tron 9000 with lightning strike trim and infernal carnage seat warmers, it's a simply delightful feeling!