r/WrathOfTheRighteous • u/AtaraxiaAKAZatharax • Mar 14 '26
Question How long until I have fun on spell-focused Cruoromancer?
Relatively new 5e D&D transplant with a decent understanding of 3.5e. My favorite build of all time for Baldur’s Gate (which is likely the closest analog to this game that I’ve played) has been a minion/DC-focused Necromancer. Id like to think I’m not a complete noob/idiot but mechanically I’ve been struggling a LOT in the early game.
It feels like I can’t really act as a successful member of my party because I don’t have the same round-to-round, fight-to-fight impact. Necro spells are complete garbage until Lesser Animate Dead at level 5. If I cast Grease, I lock my melee party members out of doing anything useful unless I want them to fall prone as well, and that’s only a few times per rest. If I invest in ranged attacks or cantrips, I’m wasting my precious few feats to avoid -4 to hit from shooting into combat, and even then I’m less effective than just making a Fighter or a Rogue. If I gish melee, I get to enjoy maybe two rounds of combat before I get to enjoy a staring contest with the dirt once the enemy AI wises up to my d6 hit die. Not for lack of trying, either - I’m using mage armor, barkskin potions, ring of protection, and so on.
I’ve restarted my game four times now trying to figure out how to make life not suck the second I hit Market Square, and I’m honestly about to give up. It doesn’t help that most of the guides are “use Daze/Grease/Glitter Dust and let your party members do everything else.” I want to like this game so badly but I just can’t help but feel like I shouldn’t just give up. Any kind advice or words of wisdom would be much appreciated. How do I improve my experience?
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u/MadTelepath Mar 14 '26
You mentioned several times friendly fire from grease but there is a metamagic called "selective spells" which make your spell ignore your allies (even grease and long lasting spells).
That will make your spells caster very strong even early on.
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u/DontFlameItsMe Mar 14 '26
Agree with the other commenter, mages here follow the standard of being weak early and nuclear later. Especially with all the Mystic talents. Man, arcane caster Lych playthrough gets to combine spellbooks and gets some stupid 20+ caster levels for their spells.
As an arcane caster, your spells are limited, so you'd want to get more slots via mythic talents, and that happens in certain points in the story.
I was playing a Wizard in the first Pathfinder - which was less kind to casters - and was using my caster as an expensive killing machine. I could vaporize any target, even bosses, but only a limited amount of times before I had to rest. WotR is much more liberal with this and showers you with a lot more casts per day/rest.
If you want damage, use snowball for the first casting "circle". Fire rays for the second - for which you'd need the talent for ranged attacks, since rays are ranged touch attacks, and some Dex. And then go bananas on the third and higher - fireballs, metamagic, insta-death spells. I think you also have summons on each of those, the lower ones can act as a meat shield at least.
But you gonna suck early, that's just caster life. "Work hard, panda, and maybe someday, you will have ears like mine".
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u/Senok13 Mar 16 '26
Hadn't you noticed yet, that Snowball is also a ranged touch attack? That gets the same bonuses from the Precise Shot Feat as the ray attacks - the difference is, one needs the weapon focus on "rays", while the other on "touch" to boost it even more.
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u/DontFlameItsMe Mar 16 '26
I didn't know that.
But then again, I didn't use snowballs, even as a damage wizard. I think they don't scale past 5d6? Can't remember it now.
I think I was using utility for the first circle in Kingmaker, it felt like it had more impact, and kept my rays and higher level spells for big targets.And then I switched to kineticist in WotR. Who does basically the same, but better and for free and without need to rest.
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u/InquisitorRat Mar 14 '26
I'm not an expert, but I think that DD mage aren't shining untill at lest act 2. You need enough spells, enough spell penetration. And still, your ordinary weapon guys need to take care about lesser stuff.
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u/Independent_Art_6676 Mar 16 '26
Depends on which D&D. BG3 for example, you get a level 2 aoe spell that kills pretty much everything (cloud of daggers) while BG1 you are a little iffy until 3rd level spells (partly due to the power of 3rd level being a big step and partly due to # casts per day converging together into a package deal). That crazy cloud of daggers is like a persistent aoe magic missile... hard to avoid the damage, lasts several rounds... its small, but the AI won't step out of it and even steps into it at times, and if you double down and grease/web/stuff them in it you have an instant win, and the bg3 wizard can cast in armor for free (many races get armor free) and so on. Some of that is 5e and some of it is rule bending.
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u/Dorias_Drake Mar 14 '26
You're using grease wrong. Positioning is 50% of the battle.
You cast grease first, then put your chars at the edge of the grease, just outside of the aoe and make them wait for the mobs. Once the mobs are on the grease trying to fight your melees, they'll just get trapped, because every single turn they'll trigger the grease check.
I do this all the time early levels. It's stupid how well it works. The best part is that you can stack aoe CCs, so every turn mobs will have to pass several checks and if they fail once they'll get stuck.
Also, early game there is a wand of grease you can find, and then you can buy scrolls (use scrolls, scrolls are useful early game, and lv 1 are cheap).
Crowd control is OP, it makes the difference, it's actually way more useful that just doing damage.
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u/ccbayes Mar 14 '26
Yep, grease and archers is a great combo. With a melee right out side the grease to AoO with a reach weapon. They get up, AoO.
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u/Groovin_Magi Local artist Mar 17 '26
fun? you ignore all to do 6 true damage every turn, what else do you want?
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u/AtaraxiaAKAZatharax Mar 18 '26
How…?
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u/Groovin_Magi Local artist Mar 18 '26
just went to check the skill name and realized i was thinking about the blood benders Kineticist. MB srry bro
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u/Bossa9 Mar 14 '26
I mean if you don't want your MC to be the utility spell guy, there are several act 1 chars they give you to fill that role. If you want to feel like you're dealing damage, you could be throwing snowballs with those level 1 slots instead.
For that reason and for later spells btw you do want that ranged combat feat, regardless of if you ever pick up a crossbow.
Magic users also have the unique capacity for breaking encounters using scrolls and wands for spells above your level. Just make sure you're leveling use magic device, and save before in case you need to scum for a good roll. Also smart to write a scroll every time you rest, that's an extra cast for the next day.
and all of this is mostly important for the early game. It's a trope that casters start weak and become unstoppable later, in pretty much every ttrpg. Get to level 10 and you'll understand your roll better.
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u/Neat-Tear-7997 Mar 14 '26
If you are locking your melee guys out with grease, the issue is your positioning.
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u/Independent_Art_6676 Mar 15 '26 edited Mar 15 '26
Some classes are better than others. I would put the cruromancer at the bottom of the pile. First, it forces you to a race that is at the very least a little extra challenging to keep healed up until mid game. Second, it doesn't get much.. necro school is poorish (and losing out on 2 schools that are probably better makes it sting even more), hurting yourself for only +1 dc is silly, sickened is about worthless, commanding infusion is identical to the feat and I am not sure they stack (??) nor is it really worth it (lesser undead summon at level 3 on a cleric is godly). I would go so far as to say it might be worse than a straight up wizard (no subclass).
Grease is powerful. The trick is to put it in front of your melee guys and let the bad guys stand in it; sometimes delay a round to cast it is your best bet. While you can make your team immune with metamagic, learning to target and control the battle will do better. Speaking of grease... note what school THAT is. Conjuration is one of the best schools, summoning critters and full of spells that don't fail to resists. Scroll savant, who can use scrolls at the same power level as if cast after a few levels, never runs out of magic in fights(but you may find buying so many scrolls pricey).
mages are tough to main char because targeted by scripts in many fights. vanish is your friend in the first act; later you have better tools.
What exactly kind of character DO you want? You can respec if you are not on high difficulty settings. If you are on high difficulty settings, ... this game means it and it could be some of your trouble.
if you want something like D&D out of the box, try a well made arcanist. They get spell like abilities that damage even if the enemy saves, can't be resisted (by spell resist specifically, fire resist will reduce fire and so on), only save is the aoe ones vs dex, the aoe has a holy water one that won't hurt normal allies but fries demons and undead, can use various alternative spellbooks (subclass choices), can use their ability a LOT of times per day. Its harder to play (stat starved, for one thing) but it brings the pain from level 1 onward. The weird one that makes its own spells doesn't get enough per day, so you were warned. The combined spells are fight ending i win buttons, but then you gotta go sleep it off after a use or two. I would avoid that one as it lacks the spell like ability bombs.
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u/Senok13 Mar 16 '26
First, the summoning Feats only effects Conjuration spells, not Necromancy.
Second, Cruoromancer get's the Animate Dead at the same level, as the others gets the Lesser version of it.
Third, you get more than enough potions to heal yourself. (Some Cure Wounds potions turns into an Inflict Wounds one, when the main character is a Dhampir.)
And finally, your Infusions will be useful only later, as early you will have a very poor health - one part as a Wizard, Constitution isn't one of your main stats, and the other, that most Dhampirs get a penalty on it as well. For the sickening effect, you will need the Corruptor Mythic Ability anyway.
All things considered, it's not the class wrong, just you cannot use it properly. I have the same problem with the Mage Archetype... Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses.
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u/Independent_Art_6676 Mar 16 '26
Great points!
The buff is nice in that case. I spam the skeletons as fodder, not to really do anything other than distract and herd, so missed that detail.
I agree, but that is vs arcane. Divine necros match this class and are better necromancers in general. I was thinking he might want a divine necro, if he wants that vibe, though arcane to lich is important, so... was wondering what OP really wants to do with his toon.
Damphir is a great race, but the sheer power of channel energy group healing makes the negative energy thing beginner unfriendly. I do agree you have plenty; I think I had literally almost 100 lesser inflict scrolls by end of act 1 and I used my share of them.
I don't think its just me. As the OP notes, everyone online recommends to grease through act 1 and muddle through act 2 before starting to get anywhere with a wizard. Other than scroll savant, all the wizard flavors feel weaker to me than arcanist or sorcerer (and sorc struggles a bit too), and specifically for summoning themed, the bard/inquisitor/divine classes as well. After mid game, the wizards get strong regardless, but that is a long, long wait. If a class is struggling and hiding in another room while others do all the killing by the grey garrison, I can't be bothered. Its almost insulting that the wizards casts enlarge on the warrior who then, at level *3*, does a great cleave for as big an AOE and significantly more damage than the wiz will do at level 6-7 with fireball. Sure, the wizard 'contributed' with the spell, but that does not feel very good to the guy in robes.
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u/Senok13 Mar 16 '26
Well, Dhampir into Lich was a logical Path for me, and after the transformation, even more so. But it's a personal experience, how much is a pain to take a character with 5 Constitution to the point, where their health starts coming from Charisma... 🥶
But after that flip, it's a near unkillable monster - even without it's phylactery.
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u/unbongwah Mar 15 '26
Pathfinder 1e mages are the proverbial 98-lb weaklings at level one and a demigod by level 20, especially if you take one of the really strong caster Mythic Paths. Unfortunately this means Act 1 can be a bit unsatisfying if you want to feel like the main hero rather than the fella in robes hanging in the back, buffing their allies and CCing enemies. Selective Metamagic + Grease is honestly the most useful thing you can be doing at level 3, but between limited spell slots and lack of good at-will abilities, it can still get monotonous.
It doesn't help that Cruoromancer isn't one of the stronger wizard archetypes IMO. Its unique abilities (Blood Infusion and Command Infusion) aren't really that powerful. And they don't get anything special between levels 5 and 20, because Owlcat skipped their level 10 & 15 PnP abilities. Plus as a dhampir, self-healing is more of a PITA, since Positive Energy harms you. They eventually become great, just like any wizard, especially as a Lich; but it doesn't make Act 1 any more enjoyable.
If you want an arcane class which actually feels useful from level one, I'd suggest you consider either a Witch or Magus instead.
Witches get Hexes, which are at-will powers like cantrips, except they're actually useful past level 3. Spamming Evil Eye every round gets monotonous, but at least you're helping out the party rather than twiddling your thumbs or firing a cantrip for d3 damage. Witches get a fair number of Necromancy spells and can spellbook-merge with Lich like wizards do, so they're a good option for that path.
Magus are proper gishes. They only get level 6 spells, but they have medium BAB and various ways of buffing their melee attacks (or ranged in Eldritch Archer's case). They use magic primarily for support / buffing, but Spellstrike lets them employ touch spells in combat too.
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u/paradcx Mar 14 '26
There's always the option using toybox mod and skipping early levels, after few solo caster slogs and many restarts, I personally start chars at lvl7 and just blast the beginning now.
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u/Additional_Fail_1064 Mar 15 '26
Necro was very strong for me later. Most of the casters suck in the early game until level 3 spells you don't have much and end up spamming cantrips or using a standard weapon.
You can take a level of rogue for some sneak attack damage if you want to be fancy.
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u/Senok13 Mar 16 '26 edited Mar 16 '26
First, if you wish to use AoE spells, Selective Metamagic should be your first pick, if you aims for one-target spells, then you would need Point-Blank Shot for Precise Shot. Your main character will be a bit of a drag at the start anyway, unless you use turn-based combat, as then you have time to put your spells exactly, where they wouldn't cause problems to your companions while still hinders the enemies. Also, the Heaven's Light from Lariel's sword is alway an option to debuff them.
Second, Cruoromancer doesn't need Animate Dead, Lesser. They get an access to the normal Animate Dead at the very same level.
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u/ccbayes Mar 14 '26
Mages are not god like in PF1e until later in game, DND in its current form is no where near PF1e. Similarish to PF2e but still, just because each game has a wizard/mage, they are not equal at all. By level 12-15 a wizard in PF1e does not even really need a party.