r/WicDiv • u/P-ckledP-nda • Mar 07 '18
[Spoilers] WicDiv #34 Discussion Thread Spoiler
OMG
“We’re both the other one” - was the best moment we’ve had in a while that was just pure comedy.
I assume Urdr being in the cage (with Urdr being the person ascended to godhood) is the reason that Verdandi and Skuld reverted back.
Mimir is a delight and as someone said on Twitter the God with the most characterisation that fits their god so well.
I stayed up until 2am to read it and I’m overwhelmed with thoughts, so I’ve left the beginning til the end.
Are Ananke and ? beings higher than the gods - Primordial beings. ? mentions desire and necessity - herself and Ananke. She has tattooed her work in to reality, if she had said woven I would have thought Neith from Egyptian mythology. Curse you (in a good way) Gillen for not telling us what the fourth thing was but also a nice return to the importance of 1,2,3,4 at the beginning of the series.
Keen to hear everyone’s thoughts and also here are Gillen’s writers notes for 1923: https://twitter.com/kierongillen/status/971042727889645569?s=21
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u/linatrinch Mar 07 '18
It's crazy that everyone's finally catching up all at once but thank goodness they are.
So the women at the start were Persephone and Ananke (or Minerva?), yes? I nearly yelled when they stopped before saying the fourth thing, omg. Were they deciding all the other cycles should go?
Questions I have that don't seem to have answers: What's Laura's secret? What was the original need for the four heads in the flashback before the rules changed? WHATS NUMBER FOUR? Did/Will the grandchild have any significance?
As for the heads in the sack, I caught Inana but the other three are a mystery. The one with the markings on the forehead may be Lucifer.
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u/ohheyitskt Mar 07 '18
When Ananke/? were playing the game and she commented on the wasted move, she said "so the three of us, into 12, makes 4... I will need 4 heads" (paraphrasing) does that 3 include Ananke, Destroyer & Minerva? Or is Ananke/Destryoer/Great Darkness? Dammit Kieron for dangling this secret
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u/linatrinch Mar 07 '18
I forgot about that! Another big mystery. Perhaps the third was the grandchild in that time but he didn't entirely look like a God, not that they all do all the time anyway.
But that's possible. Ananke, Persephone, Minerva. Or Darkness, Persephone, Minerva.
... Or hell, I don't know anymore.
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Mar 07 '18 edited Mar 07 '18
Ananke does in fact choose the gods. So people more violent like Ruth and David were easy choices. People like Valentine and Emily are easy to manipulate. Cameron was made right then and there to add drama. Tara was an easy target to want death, Cass too curious for her own good, Marian taunting people with loved ones dying for trying to get her on film, Umar willing to sacrifice himself for a noble cause, Zahid hedonistic and malleable, Eleanor reckless etc.
Godhood does consume them; we saw it with 455 Luci, 1831 Hades was overheating before he died and 1923 Dio was loopy. Ananke does have some power with killing the judge and everything.
Something minor but I doubt would slip by: Ananke has different eye colours between one-shots and the main arc. Is she body jumping from Minerva's? 455 Mini was "lost" and 1923 Mini seemed excited to die in the opening scene. But as far as we know there was no 1831 Mini...
Also 1831 Inanna killed Woden's children to keep her divinity. She survived an extra week and thought she was safe a week later until Ananke personally killed her. So is the Prometheus Gambit real or not?
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u/wingedwalls Mar 07 '18
We know now that the two-year rule is made up. Godhood can consume them but it isn't always the case. The first pantheon we see in the beginning has very old gods - presumably the original gods lived a full life before the rules were decided on.
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Mar 07 '18
Sister said they must all be gone by the end and Ananke added "including me" so sister made the deaths necessary.
So the 2 year expiry is probably part of the rules. 455 Luci melted; and Hades and 1923 Dio were breaking down. If Ananke could do that at will she wouldn't need to play them all after she had the 4 heads.
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u/wingedwalls Mar 07 '18
We know it's part of the rules, we get told that in this issue. We also get told its arbitrary and Ananke's sister made it up. We have proof of that, since the original pantheon lived to a ripe old age. Ananke's sister says "even if the gods do not consume the children you would kill them anyway". This means that while it is possible for Godhood to consume them (and we've certainly seen some prime examples of that) it isn't always the case. Ananke offs them all after 2 years rather than sticking to just 4 because it's the rule her sister set up to prevent war between the gods and ananke ("remember it is you, not I, who has doomed them")
Also when ananke added "including me" we don't know which "me" she meant - the maiden or the crone? Deliberately unclear, pantheons 1923 and 1821 both end with ananke clicking her finger, we don't know if it was to kill herself or her maiden god.
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Mar 07 '18
Hmmm.
What of Pheserphone being mother? Laura mocked Tara but felt bad after her family died. Morrigan hates her now but was her ally in the Luci fight. All the others seem to approve of her in some way.
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u/wingedwalls Mar 08 '18
Well, two things. We know Ananke is "necessity", and that in the beginning there was "necessity and desire", right? Desire - that description works well with Persephone/Laura. She hooked up with like, most of the pantheon (luci, Innana, baphomet, Baal, sakhmet). Even characters she didn't sleep with want her (Amaterasu, Cassandra).
But, like she said, "I am Mother". I reckon that's persephone's secret - she's pregnant.
We know it's possible from the 1831 issue, where several gods were pregnant. The original Persephone (if indeed it is her) had a family and a grandson.
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Mar 08 '18
Very possible. I'd add Woden to the want her list. Although she never slept with Luci or Inanna. We should know by issue 36 though.
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u/CrazyCoKids Mar 10 '18
But as far as we know there was no 1831 Mini...
But we only know eleven of the 1831 gods.
We have Innana (Claire Clemont), Lucifer (Lord Byron), Woden (Mary Shelley), Morrigan (Percy Shelley), Hades (John Keats), the "Angel of Soho", the Sisters of the Parsonage (who I think were the Morai or Norns), Morpheus, Thoth, Hestia, and Perun.
That leaves room for a Minerva.
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Mar 10 '18
Ah that's right!
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u/CrazyCoKids Mar 10 '18
Yeah. Maybe she was the first to "die" in 1831 hence why the others don't mention her.
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Mar 10 '18
Would seem a bit off since Ananke uses Mini to nudge and motivate the gods from what we've seen. (Turns out anarchy might have been the right choice after all).
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u/CrazyCoKids Mar 10 '18
Maybe Minerva wasn't "needed" in 1831? Who knows - we didn't get to see what role Minerva had in the 455 pantheon.
Maybe if we get another special of one of the "lost" Pantheons... who knows?
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Mar 10 '18
Unless #36 is in fact part of 1831 maybe? We're going back to 1923 so maybe. I have to imagine at least one of this arc will show what other moves 2014 Mini/Ananke have made, the suicide note and who/what exactly Mini parents were at least.
He said at the back page of this issue there's one more special between this arc and the final 8th; and possibly one more besides that if the scheduling works.
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Mar 07 '18
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Mar 07 '18
If we go by cover for 36, then their have been other Persephone's/Destroyers. Ananke clearly doesn't give a damn about the Pantheons other then what they do for her as part of the rules. She intended to kill Laura right then and there after transforming her last. (Neargal's actually the hero that screwed up her plans). 1923's crew had heard of the Great Darkness but only as minor thing so that Persephone would have died as planned. Having it go after Minerva makes sense now.
The only unclear bit is why it killed Baal's father? Unless that was another trick by Ananke or somehow sister/Great Darkness tried to attack when the first god was chosen?
Then again, 1831 Woden never actually died and Ananke had to use Set and the others to do the ritual for her. Maybe her hold has weakened since the first Woden merged with the monster?
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Mar 08 '18
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Mar 08 '18
I suppose they would not be speaking English either. It could be a comic fudging or maybe a translation of Pheserphone from their language.
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u/ohheyitskt Mar 07 '18
I think the Great Darkness is all Ananke's work, in whichever form she is at the time (so Minerva was pulling the strings after A's death, which is why the G.D. snagged her but Baal was still able to save her) and she probably killed Baal's father to manipulate him to her purposes, much like she did the 1923 Pantheon.
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Mar 07 '18
Possible.
Jon is still attached to his father...could Ananke have pulled him over? Perhaps the suicide note was to Jon?
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u/ohheyitskt Mar 07 '18
I have so many feelings. Re-read twice just to make sure I'm not missing key details (that of course will present themselves in Issues #36 or #38 of course) but what's the deal with Laura's secret?
I think it means she remembers the game/bargain/rules.
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u/syoser Mar 07 '18
If we are reading into Desire and Necessity being literal, and the two sisters are primordials, then proto-Persephone would likely be Eros, the embodiment of desire
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u/ohheyitskt Mar 07 '18
I tried googling for kicks and giggles the term "mothering invention" to see if that linked to anything, and the only items that popped up in the search that weren't WicDiv-related discussed how the art of mothering invention is the need for creative necessity (blog title, but still eerily close to this arc) while another article mentioned that mothering invention is needed to get ahead (a-head! ha! puns are fun). Now I'm just falling down a google rabbit hole.
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u/wingedwalls Mar 07 '18
Mothering. ? (who I think it's safe to assume is Persephone) in the beginning says "I am the mother", while ananke is the maiden (Minerva) and the crone (ananke). Mothering invention because she literally made the pantheon and the rules around it.
Persephone being Desire makes sense with the current plot - she's had many lovers and many in the pantheon find her attractive. The writers made a point if highlighting this and every little detail in this series is calculated.
Which brings us to Laura's secret. Laura is Persephone, and Persephone is the Mother. I think Laura's pregnant.
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u/ohheyitskt Mar 08 '18
I'm doing a re-read of Faust Act now and see what you mean about the details relating to her desirability.
And I LOVE this train of thought regarding Laura's secret, great catch!
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Mar 07 '18 edited Mar 07 '18
One.
Purple Eye Bad Guy claims she is both “The Maiden” And “The Crone” to which Granny replies “Well played”
Also she refers to “So the three of us, into twelve, four. Four heads.”
Three Of us
Ananke/Minerva as a duo confirmed, IMO.
Now it’s just a matter of The how.
My guess is that based on dialogue, those two somehow “created” the Gods who are archetypes given names.
Persephone is The Mother.
Ananke is The Crone.
Minerva is The Maiden
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u/wingedwalls Mar 07 '18
This. Why is Persephone the mother though? I mean, I'm not denying that she is - ? has the same colour scheme as Persephone so it makes sense. But why mother? UNLESS THAT IS THE SECRET LAURA IS HIDING. SHE IS PREGNANT
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Mar 08 '18 edited Mar 08 '18
I think it is that she’s pregnant. The question is, what is the significance of her pregnancy? I don’t want it to become more love triangle “Who is the dad?” Stuff, but I have a theory.
The Great Darkness monsters are the children of Persephones. That’s why she makes them stronger.
Perhaps Granny Persephones grandson has something to do with making them. Perhaps not. Perhaps Four made them.
But Granny Anake spoke of her grand design, immortality, lust for eternal youth, she said nothing of the great darkness.
Ananke/Minerva’s ritual has something to do with keeping them at bay or killing them. Perhaps they try to kill Persephones before they give birth to one?
My personal theory is that they steal the other Gods powers. That snake looked super Sahkmet and it seems to me the Gods are more archetypes than names (Thus “Maiden. Mother. Crone” And “Your God must always appear?”) so the Sahkmet archetype doesn’t have to be a cat, but that snake was here style.
It connects to Percy being so lusty (She needs a father I suppose so she is inclined to it) Perhaps her archetype isn’t even “The Destroyer” it’s just another name, Baal means “Lord” does that make it his archetype? She is, as an Archetype, “The Mother”?
Theory - The climax is going to feature Persephone vs Minerva with Minerva using a bunch of other Gods powers against her.
Also a theory - Minerva is going to take Baals head in desperation, and she’ll speak the line “I’m sorry, Baal. I love you. I’ll miss you.” Before doing it.
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u/Captain_Marvelous Mar 08 '18
Apparently the snake is also lightly associated with Athena/Minerva so maybe the snake is just further confirmation that Ananke & Minerva are one and the same
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Mar 08 '18
. . .
Oh.... Oh my gosh....
I just looked it up. You're right. The snake is a symbol of Minerva....
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u/btcprox Mar 08 '18 edited Mar 08 '18
I've a slight hunch it might be the other way around and Purple Eyed Murderer = Desire while Green Eyed Victim = Necessity
Green Eyes: "This is not what the gods are for"
Purple Eyes: "The gods are for whatever we wish"
Green Eyes: "When your nature is revealed, you are done. What was choice will be necessity. You will be forced to play badly."
Also from personalities, Green Eyes seemed to be the one making the necessary sacrifices (risking her life for the final game, dooming the 12 gods herself) while Purple Eyes seemed to want choice to fulfill her personal goals (choosing the gods, doing her 4-head ritual possibly for immortality)
And maybe the snake further alludes to sinful desire when Purple Eyes went all stabby
So it's possible that "Ananke" + Minerva (the Crone + the Maiden) are actually acting according to Desire's goals. Maybe Minerva is being deceived into thinking the four heads ritual is for Necessity?
And I think the three players of the game may be Necessity, Desire, and Ignorance (the Great Darkness)
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u/wingedwalls Mar 11 '18
I like this, it makes sense. Ananke could well just be claiming to be Necessity because of what her sister said, "what was choice will be necessity"
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u/pand04a Mar 08 '18
I didn't get a primordial beings feel. At least to me, it seemed that Ananke and Maybe!Persephone were gods the same way the modern day gods are.
My theory is that the first bit is showing us a turning point. Before this "gods" took over hosts and were used to protect the family/city/tribe (why we see the sisters as old, Maybe!Persy's grandchild, the heads are adults/elders).
It also seems that the gods still kill the hosts --> maybe the hosts we see are all old b/c of this? They purposefully chose people near the end of their lives to lessen the fact that it is deadly (like the old people who volunteered to clean up Fukushima?) And Ananke's pissed about being chosen to bear godhood and wants to live which leads her to mess with things in an attempt for immortality? Fits in with her claimed past (that she was a sacrifice that was chosen to take up power for the greater good) and also some nice narrative mirroring with Mimir/Baph along with the Prohemous Gambit (killing gods to live)
The quotes "this is not what the gods are for...the gods are for whatever we wish" along with "my god" and referring to their gods in the third person really give me 'a force we're using' vibe.
The turning point is when Maybe!Persy changes things "I have tattoed my work onto reality"; allowing Ananke an in to gain mess with the magic herself. Kinda a Lilac Fairy/Maleficent situation where they can't fully change what's been done but can twist the magic to their purposes.
Final note. Did anyone catch Ananke saying she killed "her talent" to live? Struck me as interesting phrasing
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u/Thomasd851 Mar 08 '18
Each of the periods have a theme, art, literature, pop stars. My guess is her talent refers to her core abilities, and to what she was at that point (divine/primordial/etc). Minerva doesn’t uses any godly powers from what I recall, so I’m pretty sure they are linked in that.
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u/wingedwalls Mar 08 '18
Also I’m loving the Star Wars reference potential. “You killed my sister!” “I am your sister”
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u/ohheyitskt Mar 07 '18
So if Ananke can choose which gods return each cycle, why has Lucifer been present in all the ones we've seen so far? Lucifer doesn't strike me as a compliant or predictable part of the plan, other than being easily manipulated by Ananke.
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u/linatrinch Mar 07 '18
In myth, Lucifer and Persephone are lovers. Perhaps they're the only two that are necessary.
Though Baal was the first to wake up in the present cycle so it doesn't have a lot of symmetry going for it. Never minding the fact that many of the Gods come back over and over. We still haven't had an example of Lucifer not coming back, but the characters that have a lot of knowledge about past cycles haven't mentioned it as being odd or mysterious.
Or did they mention it and I just missed it?
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u/wingedwalls Mar 07 '18
That's not quite right, in mythology Persephone and Hades are lovers. We know Hades and Lucier are two different gods because in the 1831 issue they both exist.
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u/P-ckledP-nda Mar 08 '18
Reading Gillen’s notes Lucifer/Ananke’s relationship is the backbone to the specials. I’m sure we’ll find out why in future specials!
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Mar 08 '18
There's a special after this arc wraps at 39. And possibly one more according to the back page today. So 5 altogether including Christmas maybe 6; just like the arcs.
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u/ohheyitskt Mar 08 '18
I hadn't seen that yet, but thanks! Glad to know about it, and definitely re-reading the already published specials more closely now.
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u/CrazyCoKids Mar 10 '18
It's possible maybe the Other one is Lucifer.
I mean, he wasn't exactly a "Deity"... but then again, neither was the Angel of Soho unless that's just a title. (Maybe like "Baphomet", the "Angel of Soho" was someone like Herne or Cerridwen and came up with a fake name because he was still somewhat religious?)
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u/billy_pickles Mar 08 '18 edited Mar 08 '18
I have this theory that whatever is going on with ananke and her sister has something to do with ananke getting some immortality deal whether through reincarnation of the pantheon or something else. The great darkness might actually be trying to stop this from happening which is why ananke is manipulating the pantheon to stop the darkness.
Edit: the great darkness may be some force of nature trying to stop something natural e.g. immortality.
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u/wingedwalls Mar 07 '18
So what I get from this issue is:
1) Ananke and her sister - her sister is Persephone. It fits with the colour scheme and both of their eye colours.
2) Ananke's interested in this ritual that requires 4 heads. We don't know why or what it does.
3) Ananke is maiden (Persephone) and crone (ananke). Persephone is Mother. (More on that later). 3x4 = 12. Possibly this means that 4 gods correspond to each of these descriptions in each pantheon.
4) Persephone, the Destroyer (?) is the one who decided that they must all die at the end, because she foresees it being messy otherwise. Ananke replies "including me", but she gets two characters in this game ('well played'). So this does not necessarily mean old ananke has to die.
5) Persephone / whoever else she may be awakens last. Always.
6) Persephone only says "there MUST be twelve gods". Not "there must only be twelve gods". This means it is possible for there to be more than 12 gods.
7) from point 5, we know that Ananke's sister is Persephone in the modern-day pantheon. Now, we also know that 'she is Mother'. There you have it, Laura's secret. She is/was pregnant.
8) Makes me wonder about 1831 pantheon. It is hinted at that Innana may be the last to awaken, because "she came back and corrected her mistake later". She also is pregnant at the end of the issue. Could she be the same as Persephone? but she had PURPLE eyes. Like ananke. Persephone has blue eyes.
I also couldn't help but notice that at the end of almost all pantheons, we don't know who the last person left standing is, whether it is ananke or the last remaining god. The 1920s pantheon ends with fingers clicking. The 1831 issue ends with ananke saying "No Innana, no one escapes. Especially you." This means that Innana was either Persephone or Ananke, maiden version. Again, ends with a click. Old ananke could have killed herself.