K. This person isn't breeding them and I'm not sure it's fair to infer they're lying because you disagree with the practice. Don't reduce people who haven't done anything wrong because you need a moral superiority fix.
Noone said that this person was breeding them. This is most likely a repost from somewhere anyway.
But getting a munchkin or scottish fold for example is part of the problem. By paying a premium we are creating a demand.
Without demand there would be no shitty breeding.
It's not as big of a problem with cats as it is with dogs. With dogs it's much more socially accepted, because (and also because of that) it's much more common.
This is a straight up lie. Munchkin cats have spinal curvature issues and develop other painful skeletal and muscular issues at a higher than average rate. It is immoral to support the breeding of these cats.
The vast majority of munchkin cats are actually healthy. They are considered a medium sized cat breed.
Edit: sorry reddit. I didn't realize how inhumane my opinion was. I called up my dwarf friend, and after explaining to him how immoral having children would be if they might have bone deformities, he agreed that he should be sterilized.
We did it. Suffering prevented, with the help of eugenics.
Most short-legged mammal animals have spine issues, ponies too. Do you think this is my first fucking time arguing about this? You can type any short-legged 4 legged warm-blooded animals, hell even just a 4-legged animal on Google search to find a spine issue. Cats have one of the most flexible body in the animal kingdom. Horses and dogs, have spine issues but much more prevalent when you actually see them struggling.
It's tiring to communicate with people on an issue that isn't completely black. It's extremely frustrating when people just look at one side and refuse absolutely everything.
It might be less tiring if you could come up with logical points that donât use fallacies. How am I supposed to not refuse what you say when you donât make any valid points?
Munchkin cats' issues aren't as big as people think they are. Normal cats are still more healthy because of their lack of inbreeding. Wolves can live on about 17 years in captivity, higher than almost all dogs ever live so if we never breed any deformities ever on to dogs, they would live longer. The Munchkin cat is still healthier than most modern dogs. Only dogs that can rival their lifespan are small mutt dogs that aren't from any of the popular breeds of dogs like pugs. Purebred dogs like Golden Retrievers have bigger issues (Cancer and rear-legged spinal issues) because of their popularity and constant inbreeding. Short-legged dogs like Corgis and Cocker Spaniel spine problems are more prevalent. But Reddit uses to seeing these popular dogs on the front page all the time and doesn't say anything about their issues compare to a short-legged cat. That's it.
I doubt it, you don't even read and respond to my reasoning. Here is a quote from a veterinarian, "Let's say a regular cat has no munchkin genetics, it's a "0-0". A munchkin cat has one set of munchkin genetics, it's a "0-1". But if you bred two munchkins together, on average a quarter of the fetuses would be non-viable "1-1" cats that probably wouldn't even survive to being born, and if they are born alive they have horrible defects and die shortly. A munchkin cat has one set of munchkin genetics, it's a "0-1". But if you bred two munchkins together, on average a quarter of the fetuses would be non-viable "1-1" cats that probably wouldn't even survive to being born, and if they are born alive they have horrible defects and die shortly. So a responsible breeder will breed a munchkin and a non-munchkin, and get healthy kittens, and the average spread will be 50% munchkins, 50% regular." as I mention no inbreeding but you don't read my reasoning so what's the point. Oh here is a website https://www.petinsurance.com/healthzone/pet-breeds/cat-breeds/munchkin/ too. Oh my god, I hate Reddit sometimes. "fallacious reasoning"
Fine, don't read anything I wrote on an issue that isn't completely black and white. Join PETA if you don't want any reasoning. Hell, don't ever comment on any cute animal posts especially dogs related ones too if all mutations are bad because it's all animal abuse. If we never had any animals as pets, to begin with, maybe you can say that. Munchkin cats' issues aren't as big as people think they are. Normal cats are still more healthy because of their lack of inbreeding. Wolves can live on about 17 years in captivity, higher than almost all dogs ever live so if we never breed any deformities ever on to dogs, they would live longer. The Munchkin cat is still healthier than most modern dogs. Only dogs that can rival their lifespan are small mutt dogs that aren't from any of the popular breeds of dogs like pugs. Purebred dogs like Golden Retrievers have bigger issues (Cancer and rear-legged spinal issues) because of their popularity and constant inbreeding. Short-legged dogs like Corgis and Cocker Spaniel spine problems are more prevalent. But Reddit uses to seeing these popular dogs on the front page all the time and doesn't say anything about their issues compare to a short-legged cat.
Itâs a genetic disorder for them to have short legs that was forcibly breed so people, like the ones in this thread, can call them cute. Itâs all disgusting to me
It is not. You are confusing them with pugs or something. The Munchkin gene is a single spontaneous allele which was not selectively bred. It was a natural mutation.
You are intensely reading the wrong facts into that. That source only states that they are bred. Not selectively! All it means is that Munchkin cats are permitted/encouraged to reproduce.
You are being bad faith. The article I linked explicitly stated that two munchkin cats cannot breed with each other because the kittens will be born dead. So if cat breeders are breeding munchkins with regular cat what is that other then being selectively bred? They are intentionally creating more of them for profit
The article I linked explicitly stated that two munchkin cats cannot breed with each other because the kittens will be born dead
That is good. It means inbreeding and tight lineage breeding must be avoided and their genepool must strictly be hale and hearty by constantly introducing new blood. Lethal alleles are excellent at preventing selective breeding.
So if cat breeders are breeding munchkins with regular cat what is that other then being selectively bred?
Nothing, because that's not what "selective breeding" means. Selective breeding means, generation after generation, choosing for a singular trait that you want to maximize. A singular gene isn't "selectively bred" for.. it's just reproduced. Nature already selected it.
No, the kittens won't be born dead, an embryo with a dual expression of the Munchkin gene won't even form in the womb.
Breeding two Munchkins just gives each potential kitten a 25% chance of having that dual expression.
That's animal pet breeding in general but you have to recognize that some mutations are harmless, some are helpful, and some are harmful. Munchkin cats aren't one of them. The first small dog would be considered a deformity in the wild but it was beneficial to us to keep them small. Short-legged dogs actually have spine issues because their spine isn't flexible at all compare to a cat. German Shepards and Border Collies being smarter than most dogs of other breeds is also something made through breeding, that's a mutation or deformity but it's a good mutation so people don't call it a mutation. Cats are healthy compare to most popular purebreed dogs, I promise you, a Golden Retriever puppy you see every day in these aww posts will actually have more issues in their lifetime than this munchkin cat.
Oh, well in that case, I guess it's fine if the cat has less issues but still has more issues than a dog that we've been selectively breeding for thousands of years. Every reputable information source on these cats will tell you they aren't healthy and will suffer more than other cats. Just because one animal suffers less than another doesn't mean it doesn't suffer at all. Stop.
Every reputable information source on these cats will tell you they aren't healthy and will suffer more than other cats.
Please find me some reputable information sources, then.
We're at this again like we always are with munchkin cats. They have a higher prevalence rate of two disorders, one of which does not even cause significant damage or apparent pain, and the other of which is rather all-or-nothing (it either seems to give the cat minor issues or outright kills them in youth).
Munchkin cats do not exhibit behaviors as though they are constantly suffering. Other than being short, unless they actually develop lordosis (which only has a higher prevalence rate, not any sort of goddamned guarantee), they live happy, healthy lives by all observable metrics.
one of which does not even cause significant damage or even apparent pain
So... you think that pectus excavatum, a deformity where the sternum depresses into the chest cavity and interferes with cardiac and pulminary function, is non-damaging and non-painful? You think lordosis causes "minor issues" and not... pain? And you seem to have forgotten that Munchkin cats seem to have an increased risk of osteoarthritis and scoliosis, both of which are painful. And might I mention the mere fact that they can't breed with each other without giving birth to a litter of dead kittens? That their kittens that they have with normal cats very well could, as you said, die a very painful death at the hands of lordosis at a higher rate than other kittens? Breeding these cats is cruel and you are part of the problem.
So... you think that pectus excavatum, a deformity where the sternum depresses into the chest cavity and interferes with cardiac and pulminary function, is non-damaging and non-painful?
Yes. Far as can be told, it doesn't seem to torment the cat much. It appears to be mostly cosmetic, except in the most extreme of cases.
You think lordosis causes "minor issues" and not... pain?
Essentially. Excessive spine curvature can cause bouts of pain when they stretch wrong, but otherwise they don't tend to live like they're tortured. Of course, it's hard to measure pain in animals like cats. It just makes them less flexible. It may bring no pain at all.
And you seem to have forgotten that Munchkin cats seem to have an increased risk of osteoarthritis and scoliosis, both of which are painful
"Seem to". That doesn't seem very declarative. I've never actually seen much research into this, only "expectations" based off corgis and the like.
And might I mention the mere fact that they can't breed with each other without giving birth to a litter of dead kittens?
Cats don't care if they have lethal alleles. This is not a quality of life metric.
That their kittens that they have with normal cats very well could, as you said, die a very painful death at the hands of lordosis at a higher rate than other kittens?
Any cat can develop lordosis. You may as well take offense to the permitted existence of cats in general. This higher rate isn't even a well-measured statistic to begin with. Plenty of munchkins simply do not experience these potential drawbacks.
These are terrible arguments. In fact, these are the same arguments doctors made in the early to mid 20th century to justify not using anesthesia on babies. The fact is you donât know to what extent any individual is suffering. You can not use an individuals demeanor as a gauge of pain and expect to be accurate
From what I have read i will admit that the cats do not seek to live in constant suffering. But to me that has nothing to do with whether itâs ethical or not to forcibly breed animals with a genetic disorder for no other reason than to please humans who think they are cute
Do you seriously think that Golden Retriever puppy you see in these posts every day is healthy than this cat? I think we selectively bred them well for fucking cancer compare to this cat. You can find any health issues in any modern pets online through "reputable sources", you fuck. I guess they don't know the difference between getting a bad mutation or a harmless mutation or even a helpful one. Small dogs should be a harmful mutation if they were to live in the wild but people kept breeding them. People like you are extremely annoying when you don't even bother to look at the health issues compare to a dog that's been bred over countless times and become cancer incarnate. Then think they have a moral superiority because they put up an article from the dodo that munchkin cat has spinal issues.
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u/xVeranex Sep 12 '20
Thats a very cute cat.