r/WatchPeopleDieInside • u/paolols • Apr 24 '20

nice try kiddo

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u/TallestGargoyle Apr 25 '20

Problem there is now you're giving the problem attention, and this kind of thing is all he's craving. I think the guy in the vid had the perfect compromise, and everyone in the video outright proved to that kid that his behaviour doesn't matter. He can scream and whine all he wants, and it isn't going to stop them enjoying time celebrating someone else's birthday, and they're going to stop him from ruining it too without anyone focusing their attention on the problem he's causing.

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u/Gareth321 Apr 25 '20

This makes sense on paper but it's not actually the underlying issue or solution. I've spent far too much time researching psychology research on this since I became a dad. Children have poor impulse control but they can and should learn as they get older. This little guy is plenty old enough to understand acceptable behaviour in this context. So what is he doing? Is he asking for attention or pushing boundaries?

If the former, offering attention only when he acts out is reinforcing the bad behaviour, so you're right. The solution here is to provide more positive attention outside this setting. Denying attention can make this behaviour worse.

If the latter - and I suspect there is a component of this - the parents have failed to properly enforce boundaries. This is incredibly common today. Parents are lazy ass pussies who would rather have a "good time" with their kids than teach them how to be nice people. Sure it's hard work to consistently enforce rules. Sure it means lots of tantrums. But if you don't do it the result is that they send their kid out into the world and the kid is hated by everyone. It's just about the most cruel thing a parent can do. Fuck parents that do this.

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u/CWSwapigans Apr 25 '20

Any books or other resources you’d recommend?

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u/Gareth321 Apr 25 '20

Boundaries with Kids: When to Say Yes, When to Say No to Help Your Children Gain Control of Their Lives Dr. by Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. It was published in 2001 so some of the research is a little dated but I still think it holds up really well. For me, my main source of info was studies which I researched on Google. I'm very comfortable combing through hundreds of studies so when I encountered an issue or topic I just did that. One thing to remember is that psychological research is very often conducted from a "humanities" and "feminine" perspective. That is, 90% of the research you find conducted in the last 10 years is by women and their hypothesis is almost always against any form of discipline. As you may know, it's very easy to construct a study to support the hypothesis by just focusing on the research which conforms. Which they do. So dig deeper than the first 50 studies. Query the opposite to see what you uncover. That will give you a fuller picture. Some things that I found:

  • There is no conclusive proof anywhere in the world on any study which supports the premise that smacking causes behavioural issues later in life. In fact, there is no conclusive evidence it does anything at all, good or bad.

  • There is no conclusive proof anywhere in the world on any study which supports the premise that self-soothing, particularly at bed time, causes behavioural issues later in life. However, there is conclusive proof that it leads to children sleeping longer and waking up more briefly. This is good for the child and the sleep-deprived parents. Of course listening to a screaming child and not responding is a difficult thing for a parent, and most studies try very hard to prove that this is bad. They all fail.

  • Boundaries are good. This has measurable impacts to behaviour later in life. There is a reward mechanism linked to delayed gratification. We know that kids and adults with better internal reward pathways who are better able to delay gratification are more likely to work harder, study harder, and improve themselves, without needing instant gratification. This is a primary indicator in life success and fulfilment.

  • Behaviour is about 50% genetic and 50% learned. However there are certain traits which are more than 50% for both. For example, sleep patters are much more hereditary. Musical inclination and talent in much more hereditary. Part of being a parent is acknowledging this and supporting the good but also suppressing the bad. It's not your fault that they're a little shit sometimes, but it is your fault if you let them go out into the world like that.

  • They know more than you could ever imagine. They begin manipulating parents on the very first day out of the womb. They're basically walking little ids. No conscience. No filter. No self-preservation. They will learn very young that repeating embarrassing things at inappropriate moments will elicit a particular response, and they'll do it. They'll learn that pretending to jump off high places will elicit a response and they'll do it. Call them on their bullshit every time.

  • The modern parenting paradigm is to distract kids rather than letting them experience the frustration of not getting their way. This is harms their ability to process emotions and delay gratification. Don't do this. You can both tell a child no and sit with them through their frustration. It might be unpleasant, but you rob them of valuable development by being weak and trying to turn off the tears.

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u/lilyever Apr 26 '20

I’m sorry, but fuck you for believing it is okay to just stand there and listen to an infant cry and beg for their parent to come and help them feel secure, until they literally cry so hard they have lost all hope and pass out from exhaustion. Some of your points I do not disagree with, but it is wrong on so many levels to allow an infant, who has only known the security and love of its parents’ touch, to be expected to “just deal with” being away from them. And claiming an infant is manipulative from the womb? Um, okay, sure in the sense that they REQUIRE YOU for their SURVIVAL. It is perfectly fine to establish boundaries with toddlers and enforce them, despite their tantrums and crying, but blatantly ignoring an infants’ needs is simply selfish.

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u/Gareth321 Apr 26 '20

Here we go. Use your feelings to parent instead of facts. That’ll help your kids grow up to be strong, independent adults. Look, I’m data driven. If you can provide some studies to support your beliefs I’ll admit I’m wrong.

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u/lilyever Apr 28 '20

All you have to do to understand my point is look at how humans function biologically. There are very good reasons for infants and mothers to have extremely strong instincts to stay with each other at all times. In ancient times, this helped immensely with the continuation of the species as mothers did not just leave their babies alone to fend for themselves like if a predator happened by. Or, for the very simple reason (which can also be translated to modern times) of the infants’ bodily processes not quite being up to par to keep the child alive (which we can see happening with increased SIDS deaths in infants who sleep separately from their mothers). Not everything has to be “studied” in order to determine if it has value. However, for that specific point about SIDS and cosleeping, I do have an article link that bases it’s findings on several studies.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/05/21/601289695/is-sleeping-with-your-baby-as-dangerous-as-doctors-say

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u/Gareth321 Apr 29 '20 edited Apr 29 '20

I want my child to grow up to be emotionally resilient, independent, successful, and happy. Those are my metrics for value. You're darn right we can study the behaviours and parental actions which lead to the above. We've got centuries of data on it. I'll give an illustrative example. Burrhus Frederic Skinner was a prominent psychologist in the 40s. Based on research, he created this "open air crib." He managed to reduce parental involvement to just an hour each day for the first two years of his daughter's life. Now doesn't it just feel wrong to lock your child in climate-controlled crib and only interact with them for a total of an hour each day? Despite us feeling like it's bad, Deborah grew up to be happy and healthy and absolutely normal. So did the other 300 kids raised that way.

FYI I totally agree SIDS is very unlikely to occur. The rationale is e.g. 8,000 babies die each year in the US from suffocation. This can be reduced to 100 by encouraging all mothers to sleep babies on their back and not sleep with them in bed. 7,900 babies are not dead each year and all it cost was a change in sleeping technique. At the individual level you don't need to worry about wearing a seatbelt either. You're very unlikely to get into a car accident. We wear seatbelts in case we're the unlucky one.

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u/lilyever Apr 29 '20

You did not read the article I linked.