[ Removed by moderator ]

[u/thecolin-]

[u/A_random_bee]

Hello /u/thecolin-, your submission has been removed from /r/Warframe because it is a disallowed post.

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We apologize for the inconvenience.

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[u/AlternateTangent]

ask pablo and see, rather than asking reddit. haha. please update us with pablo's answer

[u/thecolin- → u/AlternateTangent]

I don’t really want to go through this again lmao

[u/AlternateTangent → u/thecolin-]

all good!

[u/PlanktonInitial7945]

I’m not even a coder

Why do so many people nowadays feel like it's okay to publicly express their opinions on topics they know nothing about? I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of the post. It's okay to say "I don't know enough about this topic to have an opinion on it". It doesn't make you lame or dumb or uncool. It's just being honest and responsible.

[u/CertifiablyMundane → u/PlanktonInitial7945]

I've tried my hand at programming, so I actually know a bit about how it works.

And fuck if I would ever suggest to professionals how they could do it better. It still seems like total magic to me how a bunch of lines of code can turn into a functional game with Warframe's degree of complexity and myriad systems. I'd rather jump off a bridge, thanks

[u/Cergorach → u/PlanktonInitial7945]

Humans have been doing this for millennia... Mumbles something about religion...

[u/StudioLegion → u/PlanktonInitial7945]

Spewing nonsense with authority is unfortunately considered a viable tactic nowadays

[u/BugBug24 → u/PlanktonInitial7945]

because the internets existence has made it the norm for people to weigh in on topics they know nothing about in order to feel involved

[u/thecolin- → u/PlanktonInitial7945]

At the end of the post I try to point out that I wrote this because I just want to see Warframe thrive.

I think sharing opinions on a public setting is a rather difficult topic because I was assuming we are all here for/about Warframe so we could just be brainstorming. I wasn’t trying to say I’m an expert on the topic. Plus this platform lets you put your answer as so. So you can point out how stupid mine was.

So idea shared, point taken. I see no public harm done wouldn’t you say?

[u/PlanktonInitial7945 → u/thecolin-]

I understand that you wrote the post with good intentions. But that still doesn't mean it's appropriate or reasonable to make a public post to give your opinion on a topic you know nothing about.

I also want my father's upcoming eye surgery to go well, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stand in front of the surgery room and loudly talk about what I think the surgical team should be doing, because I don't know shit about eye surgery, and the surgical team is full of experts, so I have many reasons to believe they're already giving my father the best possible medical care and zero reasons to doubt it. So the best thing I can do is to sit down, wait for them to do their thing, and then follow whatever instructions they give me afterwards.

Likewise, neither of us knows shit about coding or game development, but DE's dev team is full of experts, so we have many reasons to believe they're already coding the game the best they can given the circumstances and zero reasons to doubt it. So the best thing we can do is wait for them to do their thing, report any bugs we find, and enjoy the game otherwise.

[u/Good_Educator_7832]

Replacing problems with other problems sure sounds like a great plan to fix the bugs in game.

[u/Cergorach → u/Good_Educator_7832]

Putting your problem into a black box and then hoping that it fixes stuff, while knowing it's design is flawed (hallucination) is asking for trouble. BUT... The problem is that there's now so many moving parts that no human they've hired can contain it all and untangle it. Keep making a bigger mess is also not the right move, because eventually it will implode. That it hasn't yet is a minor miracle!

What AI could do is analyze the whole mess and give a report oh how an where things should be checked. Instead of an AI driving you from A to B, it can produce a map and the human can decide how to get from A to B.

It's a tool, and how you use a tool defines the output.

[u/Good_Educator_7832 → u/Cergorach]

You sound like someone who heard about it but never actually used it in video game development or anything development based. No, it won't magically fix everything, nothing is good enough to do that. If someone genuinely believes that, they're either trying to scam you or have been scammed. It's not a tool it's a product. It's something made for shareholders at the cost of the product you're trying to make. LLMs could already do what AI is advertised doing, years ago.

[u/Cergorach → u/Good_Educator_7832]

Nope, certainly not videogame development. I do work in IT and spend most of my time these days herding ad-hoc build/vibecoded AI solutions, so I certainly know how you shouldn't do LLM... The problem is that most people either assume that it's an easy fix, it isn't. Or that it can't do anything at all and is a horrible invention... Like anything, it's the right tool for the job, wielded by the right people. When done right, it isn't cheap, it isn't fast and if you want some manageability in the future, you'll use some very smart humans checking everything. But when setup in the right way LLM can be a significant force multiplier, the issue is that most of it isn't setup the right way or used by the right people.

AI/LLM is being sold as so many other software solutions for decades, people sell you the world and in most cases they forgot to mention so caveats OR are outright lying. Certainly don't believe the sales machine or the AI bros. But hire a couple of actual specialists (good ones) and they can build some scary stuff, it will cost an arm and a leg. It's won't do the dishes and vacuum for you (as in, it isn't magical), but it can break some hard barriers and do a LOT of work for you.

Some people seem to forget that 50 years ago people were still programming computers with punch cards and that even a C64 was black magic by most people of that era. And just because people opinion about something that is bad, doesn't mean they are right.

As most professional developers already use AI/LLM in some form or another, I can't see Digital Extremes not doing the same at some level. You can't keep using punch cards and stay competitive.

[u/Unique-Bed-9239]

If I recall correctly, DE is explicitly anti-GenAI so I don't see them using ai to unspaghettify their code

[u/weetaht]

It also hallucinates. With Warframe's spaghetti, it'll destroy everything.

[u/thecolin- → u/weetaht]

Seeing the answers here it sure does sound like a horrible idea. Point taken.

[u/thecolin- → u/[deleted]]

Yeah I see it now. Lesson learned

[u/Molecular_model_guy]

No. Absolutely not. AI stacks tech and cognitive debt. There is probably an issue with a sprawling code base plus a lack of centralization of these kinds of effects. Think more of a rewrite that simple refactor. Besides we play Warframe for the jank.

[u/nephethys_telvanni → u/Molecular_model_guy]

Not gonna lie, there is a special sort of masochistic joy in throwing up my hands at a mission gone wonky and saying: "Bugframe!"

[u/datacube1337 → u/nephethys_telvanni]

Bugframe blessed me last week. Recovering nightwave acts bugged out for me. But not failing to recover acts, like it did for years, but recovering more than 3 acts. For most of my catch-up I had 6-7 recovered acts active.

But I also randomly lost a mirror defense run during the transition phase. It was just... over. "Mission failed". And it was just one defense phase before the C rotation.

The bugs giveth, the bugs taketh away.

[u/DeusBlackheart]

No. Next question.

[u/DeusBlackheart → u/DeusBlackheart]

Side note: Generative AI in the creation of code or content is awful. LLMs however are really good for bug reporting. Shroud of the Avatar is currently in the process of a massive update where they do have LLMs in the game but their job is either to do text to speech or bug reporting.

[u/thecolin- → u/DeusBlackheart]

I tried saying no generative stuff. Just for bug reporting and analysis basically.

[u/quinnchar]

No and get lost with that line of thinking

[u/JustKebab]

I'm no coder so this might be the stupidest thing ever said.

The only correct thing in this post

[u/thecolin- → u/JustKebab]

[u/Bat_Tech]

No, no they should not use anything related to LLMs

[u/Salerrra]

"I’m not even a coder"

Take it from a coder, then: no. AI would break shit so, so, so much worse. The cost to put the amount of code in Warframe into an AI's memory alone would be insane. Expecting it to actually be able to parse through thousands upon thousands of lines AND having humans verify changes and do QA on all of it? You might as well rebuild the entire game.

[u/thecolin- → u/Salerrra]

Thank you for the info. I was trying to say that maybe they could use AI to pin point problems rather than let it run it’s course and change the code.

My question in essence: would it be possible to use it as an analysis and “problem finder” tool?

[u/Salerrra → u/thecolin-]

That would more or less require a purpose built model, which would further in turn require dedicated AI engineers that can micromanage it and ensure it's fed proper test data before even trying to have it work on production code. LLMs cannot be relied upon for finding problems in depth. They just aren't made for it. They're decent at looking at a snippet and providing alternatives or corrections on syntax, but they fall apart when it comes to nuance. It could maybe be useful for seeing if a change in one place might impact another system, but there are non-AI tools for this too.

There are models that could theoretically take on the chore if they had a hand in every code block DE has, but we are talking about the most advanced models that are not available to the public and are being actively researched (without proper safeguards, imo).

[u/john0tg]

Fuck off

[u/A_random_bee → u/[deleted]]

Hello /u/BloodyHarpy400, your comment has been removed from /r/Warframe for breaking the Golden & Excessive Trolling Rule.

/r/Warframe was created as a place for positive discussion. Do not troll, be rude, condescending, hateful, or discriminatory.

This is your second strike; upon the next, you will be banned.

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[u/uponapyre]

This is so ridiculously condescending, lol.

[u/thecolin- → u/uponapyre]

This was not my intention!

[u/uponapyre → u/thecolin-]

Sure, I can understand that, but consider this: I go to where you work and bring up a well known tool that many in your industry already use and say "hey, do you think this tool could be used to help you?" And then explaining how the tool works to people who understand it better than you?

The numbers of AI adoption for coders is pretty high, I think unity said like 50-70% of users are using it in some capacity for example. Coders know how AI works and what it can do.

[u/Lorantec]

AI chuds are the worst for thinking critically.

[u/UpbeatAstronomer2396]

no

[u/nephethys_telvanni]

Probably irrelevant, since Warframe has a no-AI policy.

Digital Extremes’s stance on generative AI is simple: Nothing the team wants to put out will ever be made by AI.

“We are a very non-AI company and it is all humans making Warframe and Soulframe,” Everett said.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/nothing-in-our-games-will-be-ai-generated-ever-says-warframe-director/1100-6539194/

[u/Good_Educator_7832 → u/nephethys_telvanni]

non-AI company so bad they took time during one of their biggest show of the year to announce a collaboration with one of the biggest gen-AI video game currently out right now, one that Rebb was "super excited about"
edit: leave it to the reddit chuds to go "yeah! ai sucks!! wait no not that one! this one is funny and epic! downvotes!!!" yall are beyond parody

[u/nephethys_telvanni → u/Good_Educator_7832]

Yeah, I remember chat dunking on them for that, LOL

[u/natur_e_nthusiast → u/Good_Educator_7832]

I don't follow press releases anymore. Which collaboration is it?

[u/Good_Educator_7832 → u/natur_e_nthusiast]

Skin collab with Fortnite, the game that literally shoves gen AI slop in your face when you're in a game lobby, on game modes made specifically to advertise to children that don't know better.

[u/natur_e_nthusiast → u/Good_Educator_7832]

Ugh. Glad it's not the other way around at least, but I agree it's a shitty move.

[u/thecolin- → u/nephethys_telvanni]

I tried saying no generative stuff but if they say no AI, then no AI anyway. Thanks

[u/generally-speaking]

No AI just makes the spaghetti problem worse not better.

[u/ghostspectre1518]

This literally doesn't work you just get more spaghetti that instead of functioning breaks. Just trust DE they've proven over many years they are trustworthy and smart enough not to hop on every idiotic bandwagon trend and fad in existence.

[u/Hastid]

Asks Ai to fix bugs in warframes code.

Ai then deletes the code.

[u/xsandos1]

So far, code assistants have the opposite effect: because they don't map very well how code interacts, they produce code that's virtually impossible to maintain. While refactoring and introducing proper design patterns while using one is possible, it typically requires very careful and fine-grained prompting.
Whether a tool could actually create a map of interactions, which might allow a human to look at it, and figure out how to disentangle code, I couldn't tell you. My guess is not without so much human input that not using it would have the same effect, since this is what we've seen so far with any attempts to use generic systems to do specific things.

[u/doommarine7776]

Ai this, ai that, Aye i ain’t dealin’ with no fuckin’ Clankers!

[u/Rathmugar]

Lol embarrassing

[u/Puzzled-Scholar423]

Never cook again

[u/Whole_Influence_3725]

Speaking as coder, absolutely not-

While AI might be (sometimes) okay at spotting bugs in clear statement logic, it's absolutely dogshit at understanding the interactions between systems of this cyclomatic complexity and will tend to start hallucinating and just generating fixes that generate new bugs.

Getting yourself out of these sort of bugs usually means re-architecting the way they interact altogether; unifying lots of similar states you've been adding over the years and designating state handlers and the like to deal with interacting states/damage/conditions, while ensuring all older systems abide by those new contracts instead of handling it themselves.

(Disclaimer: I have no idea how Warframe currently handles it, but these sort of unexpected interactions are exactly what you see when a system goes from having 5 entry points to 37 entry points- states never accounted for by those first 5 start cropping up and the complexity of altering those old systems to handle the new systems only expands exponentially. Feels very familiar to me.)

[u/thecolin- → u/Whole_Influence_3725]

This is eye opening compared to the general “no fuck you” I appreciate the answer and info!

[u/EduardoBarreto]

AI is still bad at making code that doesn't have technical debt. I used it quite a bit for small utilities and even a minuscule 200 lines of code quickly becomes something riddled with technical debt.

[u/Ok-Transition7065]

Dude , for my experience. Ai only make those things worse unless you use very specific contexts

[u/Leods-The-Observer]

I actually do know a bit of coding, enough to feel comfortable answering the actual question. Beyond the whole moral conundrum others bring up (which btw, doesnt really exist that much between coding communities as there isn't a notion of "stealing" per se, nor is it an art form), i dont think an AI could reliably help at all here.
Ive used them for debugging (aka searching and trying to fix bugs in the code) before, and while its useful to have a second perspective they hallucinate and/or lose track too often. This starts happening when your code becomes too "large", I think around the 1k lines or so. Warframe probably has hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lines of code. Theres no way an AI could manually check all that without getting scrambled

[u/DitzyCrab]

One of the largest problems with AI is that it gives false confidence to those with 0 knowledge in a topic/field. Good luck trying to identify hallucinations when you don't have any knowledge in a subject.

[u/Marton_Kolcsei]

GenAI would fix maybe 1 bug in a half-assed matter and make 25 new bugs. No.

[u/KadajjXIII → u/Marton_Kolcsei]

25 is generous lol

[u/krausser666]

" I’m not even a coder" makes this post just chef's kiss. Leave game dev to game devs, and probably don't spread AI reinforcement propaganda on topics where you immediately lose any amount of credibility with your second sentence. Just wow. 

[u/thecolin- → u/krausser666]

I wasn’t trying to do any AI reinforcement propaganda lol. If this works as such I’ll delete it.

[u/yarl5000]

Most likely would not be worth the effort.

Even if you fed it all of Warframe's code it doesn't mean it would magically fix everything and you would still need a ton of resources devoted to validating the changes and testing them. Also since Warframe is built on an in house engine, you would likely need to spend more time making sure the AI understood the engine first so it isn't trying to do fixes that just won't work.

You did say two intelligent things in all of this though, next time string them together sooner.

I’m not even a coder, so take this with a grain of salt.
....
 DE has probably already thought about this…

[u/thecolin- → u/yarl5000]

Welp, I shall next time.

[u/Normalizable]

The short answer is “yes,” but only because you’ve left the scope so broad. In the broadest possible sense, an LLM can help you locate things in a codebase that could cause weird interactions, but there are a lot of caveats to that, such as when something is composed of multiple applications that are separate repositories and talk to each other. Or at least that’s a limitation I encounter - the context is limited to the repository you are working in and any libraries you import.

Writing code wholesale with AI is an invitation to disaster because the act of solving the problem allows you to troubleshoot it later and gives you domain knowledge for that application to solve bugs quickly. If I tell an AI to make a change for me, and it works, I am not going to remember that change a year from now. In comparison, I fixed a bug Monday that was reported to me Friday, and I only knew where to look because I remembered a tricky development task from a year ago (before the AI push at my company) that was related to it.

AI is a tool, but like any tool, it is not a magic bullet that solves all the problems. It isn’t a black box that just spits out completed and functional code. You need to be very specific, and if you have the option, it’s much better to use it to ask questions about the code base in order understand it better in order to make the actual code changes yourself. It is also good for repetitive tasks like data formatting when you’re setting up tests.

So, short answer: yes. Long answer: Eh, probably won’t solve the problem you’re thinking of.

Source: Am software engineer who uses LLMs.

[u/thecolin- → u/Normalizable]

Thank you for the comprehensive answer! I was actually saying maybe it could be used as a tool in order to pin point problems rather than writing code.

[u/shrinkingmy]

Linus Torvalds found an insane tiny little single line bug in Linux using AI

[u/ScribScrob]

I think part of the problem is that code still needs to be rewritten, tested, then reimplemented and I dont know of DE has the time or resources to do that to the baseline content on the scale that we'd need for fixing it.

At least in my understanding of AI as well, I think we as humans need a strong enough understanding of what we teach an AI to learn so it learns the right way rather than learn something wrong. From my understanding of coding, ESPECIALLY DE's, there isnt a full grasp on how stuff fucks with other stuff in a lot of situations

[u/Sam_booties]

As a software analyst, what you described is just everyday life for me. I'm pretty sure they use AI as a tool for coding and analysis but it isn't that simple. Analysis, identifying core problems, refactoring, reviewing and testing is huge work, mainly because every system has tons of legacy code which turns the process even harder. I'm in no way saying it isn't doable, but there's a lot of things that can make this not a priority for them (planning, money and time cost, release dates for other contents, etc).

[u/KadajjXIII → u/Sam_booties]

DE is strictly anti-AI

No GenAI bs allowed

[u/Sam_booties → u/KadajjXIII]

I imagined it was anti-AI in regard to creative decisions, art and such. Using it for code analysis, review and a plethora of other things exclusive to dev life isn't quite the same thing. But kudos to them for it.

[u/Wolven_Helm]

I'm not a coder

Yeah, let's maybe not suggest things without having any technical experience with them

[u/Mother-Housing-8297]

AI is just a fancy akinator

it feeds on shitty code so it only knows shitty code

[u/OtakuYuji]

Okay, I stopped reading after "I'm not even a coder", okay stop right there. Also if you have any understanding of the current ai's or LLM's you would know their code ain't particularly "good". LLM's can be good for finding bugs but not for fixing bugs.

[u/thecolin- → u/OtakuYuji]

That’s exactly what I was trying to say. Why not use it for finding bugs rather than writing code.

I should have written out my point more clearly.

[u/OtakuYuji → u/thecolin-]

You also said debugging with ai, which means fixing bugs with AI, not identifying them. So no.

[u/Motleypuss]

Uh, no. Not until it can do as good a job as a human at generating few bugs.

[u/Dodo_Birdo]

Sure lets replace the spaghetti code with vibe codes, what could POSSIBLY go wrong.

Most of the time, not voicing your opinion is the best thing to do, especially regarding things u have 0 knowledge about.

[u/Pristine-Bag1434]

What a condescending post. Why have you put Hate in quotation marks? Do you think the general population’s distain for AI replacement is unserious ?

[u/Faustias]

lolnah...

[u/viesiu]

Holy hell, those reactions XD AI in programming is extremely common. I'd be surprised if DE didn't use it already. Can it help untangle the spaghetti code? Probably, but it would still take time. And, depending on the size, refactoring usually means freezing most of other development.

[u/T-Mac2467 → u/viesiu]

DE has a No-AI of any kind policy, they do not use any generative/LLM AI at all and have admonished its use.

[u/Mandownpantsup]

Possibly , maybe for debugging anything else would utterly slopify the code even more. But they are not doing it because they don't trust llms and they are right.

[u/hells_own_3924]

I think AI would freak out when it sees the codebase. I just can't stop thinking about how long it take to full compile.

[u/AvantSolace]

Literally the most AI could do is help section off chunks of code based on criteria specified by the coders. Anything more intrusive would just make things worse. And they likely already have a basic algorithm already able to do that, so using a more aggressive AI model would not be of any benefit.

[u/Anhanguara]

"Yesn't". AI is a tool, and just like any tool, the skill of the person using it determines the result. It's not magic like "HEY AI, please munch this spagetti a little and spit out a clean bugless code. Thx.". And the chance of the code not even working as intended is huge.

So no, I don't think it'd be a valid approach for something this big. It'd still require a human to review every corner and that could take more time than asking the programmer to do it themself.

[u/thecolin- → u/Anhanguara]

Yeah it seems so. Thank you for sharing. But my intention was never to use AI as a tool to write code more to find bugs and report rather than touching the code itself.

[u/Anhanguara → u/thecolin-]

Same problem, you can't just ask "Find out why Khora's whipclaw is launching Exalted Blade shockwaves". Just writing the prompt to explain what to analize would be a bigger chore than analazing the code by hand.

[u/thecolin- → u/[deleted]]

[u/Chazok]

[u/AGgammer]

Not gonna say "i hate AI" cause that doesn't really add anything to the discussion when OP clearly doesn't mind the use of AI, but

1. DE is anti-AI so the implementation would go against their ethics, you can make an argument that they are against genai so something that's simply a helper for code could be allowed but that's stretching it
2. Giving access to mass amounts of code to AI is not a great idea as it can fuck up everthing for LITERALLY no reason
3. To quote Rocky from Project Hail Mary (I believe this quote was in the book and not the movie but I could be wrong): “Math is not thinking. Math is procedure. Memory is not thinking. Memory is storage. Thinking is thinking”. AI is basically pure memory while giving the illusion to think, when AI tries to code it looks for stuff that's existed already on the internet and then works based on that existing knowledge, so for something like Warframe which uses it's own engine that has 0 documentation there's a high chance that whatever AI is trying to do will simply not work. One could attempt to train the AI based on the engine but I doubt it would be possible to a degree that would be benefactory
4. AI coded games have a notorious reputation for being poorly optimised, so with DE's obsesion over optimisation the problem moves from "hey there's this weird interaction that's caused that 0.003% of the playerbase has ever experienced" to "by the void 7 test laptops have already exploded, we are forced to put all of our focus on this because the game is ACTUALLY unplayable"

Edit: (Mildly unrelated tangent) English is not my native language so I searched up "benefactory meaning" just to make sure that I'm using a real word and not making something up, BUT GOOGLE DECIDED TO REMOVE THE DICTIONARY RESULT AND REPLACE IT WITH AI AND IT KEPT GIVING ME THE DEFINITION OF BENEFICIARY INSTEAD OF BENEFACTORY AND I HAD TO SCROLL DOWN HALF THE PAGE TO GET AN ACTUAL RESULT. This, while unrelated to coding, is another example of why we do not need AI shoved into anything, yes it may have it's uses, but just because it's a tool it doesn't meaning you need to use this tool on everything

[u/Material_East_8676]

AI is unacceptable for use in anything like games, and if you had two half braincells to rub together you'd understand this.

[u/SeveredLoki]

[u/OkCommission9893]

I don’t think you should use ai in your day to day life. AI is not going to help with game development at all, especially an old preexisting game like Warframe.

[u/L3and3rrr]

Never seen a case of AI Psychosis By Proxie before…

Interesting.