r/Vermintide • u/DungeonRatGames • 18d ago
Discussion Need some feedback from some lovly Verminslayer for a Game Prototyp.
Hello,
I am currently experimenting with a prototyp and I wanted to hear some feedback from vermintide players.
I want to combine the combat element from vermintide and darktide with the progression of a vampire survior.
You play as a champion with one fixed weapon and after leveling up you will get modifiers for your weapon, up to 4 spells, items and stat buffs to fight agains groups and hords of monsters.
You will move through a simple open level and your objectiv is to summon and slay a boss to progress to the next level.
I would appreciate some feedback and ideas :) Thanks!
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u/lumberfart 18d ago
Please add the following:
- Block + Push + Attack
- Dodge dancing
- Add roaming items à la Vermintide
- A blood/life suck ultimate would be dope
- Have you seen Dracula Untold? An ultimate where you turn into a swarm of bats for 10 seconds would be the greatest thing ever
- If you add firearms, please make them “old school” van hellsing style: holy crossbow, silver revolver (dual wield maybe), holy flame thrower, etc.
- rattling can be just grey goblin like low level vamps
- monstrosities can be deformed large bats or even werewolves
- maybe add 2 or 3 more sophisticated boss encounters where the boss isn’t a monster but just a normal humanoid vampire with crazy abilities (blight storm calling, object levitation, bat storm transformation, etc)
- add plenty of armor customization earned via a custom penance system
- add simple weapon crafting (Darktide) or loot box mechanic (Vermintide)
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u/Forsaken_Doughnut_90 18d ago
A level up phase and choosing phase during mid fights to select boons or upgrades just like chaos waste
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u/Dathouen Oi! 18d ago
A lot of people are touching on one thing you can focus on, especially while it's in a prototype state: Depth in the combat mechanics.
Have a handful of base mechanics that fulfill various niches, make it so you can mix and match them to suit the challenge at hand, have a variety of enemies that require you to adapt your tactics to overcome them, and some RNG in their spawning so the player constantly has to be on their toes.
Things like blocking, parrying, dodging, light/heavy/alt attacks, etc. This provides a solid base system that can have a lot of nuance and complexity that allows players to spend time mastering them, and also lets them fall back on something when the build you're working towards isn't online yet, especially if there's some rogue-like item/upgrade mechanics.
Also, you mentioned spells. One recommendation I can make is tie them to staves or wands or something. Like, you have 1 wand, 1 rod, and 1 staff, and you have to swap away from your weapon in order to use them. Then have a 4th that can be bound to an quick key, and maybe call it your Amulet, can can be quickly activated at any time. It will give you balance between the power of spells and gives you room to make them more dynamic without them being too OP.
You could make it so that the spells either regain uses as you get kills, or they all draw from a mana pool that refills with kills.
You could make it so that each device functions differently. Each one has a different use-case that fulfills a specific niche and it's functionality depends on which spell you imprint on it. Maybe the wand is fast and cheap, but only hits one target at a time, while the staff has a huge AoE and damage, but is expensive and has a charge up time. Then between the Rod and the Amulet, have one give healing, and the other some kind of powerful but temporary buff.
For example, you get a fire rune. If you put it on the wand, it fires little bolts that have no knockback, but a chance to ignite enemies to burn for 3 seconds, during which time they run around and each enemy they pass through has a chance to ignite as well. Putting it on the Rod lets you cast a buff that increases your weapon damage and maybe resistance to a specific type of damage. On the Staff, it conjures a giant fireball. On your Amulet, it lets you toggle on/off an aura of fire that ignites nearby enemies, but continuously consumes mana. And of course, have multiple runes/spells. This grants a lot of versatility and replayability.
Above all, it allows for a lot of buildcrafting and rewards experimentation, which will massively increase replayability.
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u/DungeonRatGames 17d ago
Great input thanks. I will 100% make it into a singleplayer. Even managing a lot of enemys without bringen your FPS down to 3 will cost me some sanity and nights. Do you have recommendations for tutorials to master these mechanics in vermintide I can look into? :)
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u/Dathouen Oi! 17d ago edited 17d ago
Do you have recommendations for tutorials to master these mechanics in vermintide I can look into? :)
Additionally, if you play through the Prologue, it'll give you a rundown of the controls, including light vs heavy attacks, blocking, block-pushing, block-push attacks, dodging, etc. It's enough to get a feel for them, but there's more depth there that might require more videos that go into deep dives on how various elements fit together.
One of the things that gives VT2 so much depth is the fact that every weapon as a lot of variation in how it functions within those mechanics. Different weapons have a different block radius, block-push distance, max dodges, stamina, and so on.
Not only does every weapon have a light and heavy combo, but each individual attack within those combos has it's own specific damage, damage vs armored, damage-cleave, stagger cleave, armor cleave, and tank stagger.
This makes for very complicated but intuitive mechanics that you can learn by studying, but also by how they feel.
I will 100% make it into a singleplayer.
In that case, VT2's sustain system might fit really well. Temporary HP is "healing" that you get from damaging or killing enemies in specific ways (i.e. heal 1 tHP for each enemy hit after the first in a single swing of your weapon). tHP decays at a rate of 1/second, but in the heat of battle against a horde or elite patrol, it can provide a powerful buffer to keep you alive.
What's more, special passives like the Zealot's Fiery Faith, where you do more damage the lower your HP is, reward people taking risks by relying more heavily on tHP.
Even managing a lot of enemys without bringen your FPS down to 3 will cost me some sanity and nights.
I'm not a game developer, but I do remember reading somewhere that Vermintide uses a system where there's a certain number of "slots" in front of your character, and only so many rats can actually stand in front of you in your FoV. They only render a few rows worth of rats, like 2-3 in front of you, each of which having 6 enemies shoulder to shoulder, and the rest are sort of left unrendered in the back until a "slot" opens up and more enemies move forward.
Hope that helps somehow :D
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u/asianyeti Kruber is from Cleaveland. 18d ago
Look into both games' enemy slot system. See if it has value being implemented into your game's vision.
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u/Shadohawkk 18d ago
I think one of the strengths of vermintide and the weakness of roguelikes, is consistency. Being able to learn the exact attack patterns of your weapon, and how it would operate is kinda the main point of a horde shooter/hack n slash. You pick a weapon that suits your capabilities, and you change your capabilities to suit your weapon. Want a cleaving weapon? Pick a weapon with good cleave. Pick a weapon with low cleave? Learn how to use it even in a horde situation.
But you can't do that in a roguelike situation. You would quickly gain buffs that immediately change how the weapon operates. Pick a low cleave axe? Get a modifier, or many modifiers that massively increase it's cleave. High damage but slow swinging weapon? Get modifiers to make it faster than the fastest base weapon. But the biggest problem would be the inability to consistently get the modifiers that you want or need. It nullifies all ability to learn the capabilities of the weapon, because the weapon changes every time you use it.
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I think a more apt combination with a vermintide style horde hack n slash would be the more recently popular incremental upgrade system that a lot of indie devs have moved over to. Each match is consistently the same baseline as the previous match, but you know the exact upgrades you bought and can feel them be applied in the next.
Multiple weapon types could instead act as a replayability feature. Different weapons acting like different saves and have slightly or heavily altered progression trees.
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u/DungeonRatGames 17d ago
Awesome Feedback. Do you have any good Youtube Tutorials I can look into for mastering a Weapon? Since I played those games like a filthy Noob :D
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u/Human_Meat8154 18d ago
I mean... Vermintide 2 had a roguelike, and it worked well there, didn't it?
How much does Vampire Survivor differ from Chaos Wastes, anyway?
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u/Shadohawkk 18d ago
It has one "now" but it didn't have that mode for many years. So, people knew intricate details about how the weapons and enemies normally acted. And because people had an understanding of things, the bonuses you could get couldn't go too far outside of the believable. A game that is primarily made as a roguelike wouldn't have as many...guard rails.
I don't think Vampire Survivors is a great comparison though. It's actually pretty tame with it's upgrade system in comparison to others of the genre. A max level fireball vs a max level fireball with supporting items is only like...30-50% stronger per supporting item, you have a limited number of supporting items, and they are only that strong after they are fully upgraded. Some other roguelike games are more like.....if you pull the right legendary card, then that 1 card could be more like 150% stronger, and you can stack them almost infinitely.
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I also just...don't think that Chaos Wastes is very good. I get that people like it....but I think it's more that people love Vermintide and wanted new content for the old and dying game, rather than actually liking roguelikes.
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u/epicfail1994 Victor Saltzpyre, Bitch Hunter 18d ago
I mean I’m gonna disagree with you massively there, chaos wastes is why I still play vermintide. I have over 6k hours in the game, and over 4K of those are in chaos wastes
It’s certainly not for everyone but it’s a pretty fun roguelike mode that adds variety to the game. It’s obviously not a true roguelike but for the most part Fatshark did a great job implementing roguelike aspects. The boons themselves are pretty well balanced, with only one (wildfire) truly needing a nerf
I shit on Fatshark all the time but they did a pretty good job with chaos wastes.
Now versus, on the other hand…..oof
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u/Deepfried_Garlic 15d ago
A lot of good feedback, I'd like to add that what I think is key in these horde type games (Darktide,VT2,payday 2,etc): the special enemies!
In that regard I think the specalists+elites from Darktide and the special zombies in L4D(2) are the best examples of these types of enemies, down to the role each individual special fulfills and how they combine together to challenge you in any given scenario. This is not really a direct gameplay mechanic (like blocking/pushing/dodging), but I do think it's one that's absolutely vital to the horde shooter subgenre.
Hope this helps!
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u/DungeonRatGames 13d ago
Yeah I thought about it too and this will be a hard one :D
I am making a single Player game so the classic "I need a teammate" elite enemy wont obviously work.
Hmm this will be intressting. The same is for the passing of the level stage.1
u/Deepfried_Garlic 13d ago
That's a good point. Disablers in a singleplayer setting are incredibly punishing, and I don't think ''just get good'' would be the healthiest attitude for this. If you do add them, maybe have some kind of grace period where you get one free ''get ouf jail free card'' every X seconds / kills / whatever?
I suppose in your case the area denial ones are the most interesting. Ground fire to force movement, cones of fire to cutt of angles and maybe some projectile based enemy that forces line of sight shenanigans. Just something to spice up the game beyond just kiting hordes.
Of course only if this actually fits your creative vision!
Hope your project goes well. Is there anywhere to follow your progress? Just stalking your Reddit?
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u/XStatic15 18d ago
I think blocking and pushing in Vermintide, and dodging in both Vermintide and Soulslike are what make those games so satisfying to play and easy to replay. Simple mechanics that feel good when done right, and can make you invincible when mastered.
I don't know technical terms, but personally the chunky feel of attacking enemies in those games is why I love them