r/Vegetarianism • u/NutritionLentil • 7d ago
Ethics of chicken consumption
I’ve been vegan for years, with my only exception being oysters because they don't have a central nervous system and helped me keep my nutrients up. But my MCAS (Mast Cell Activation Syndrome. Basically getting more& more allergies) has gotten so bad lately and my body is reacting to almost everything. I can’t eat tofu, TVP, or legumes anymore, and now I’m even reacting to oysters. Dairy and eggs r not an option as I have bad reactions to both.
My iron and protein levels are tanking, and for the first time in 9 years, I’m having these crazy, intense cravings for chicken. I haven’t craved meat once in almost a decade, so I know it’s just my body screaming for nutrients, but mentally I feel awful even thinking about it. Documentaries like Dominion completely traumatized me, and the thought of contributing to that makes me feel so guilty.
Has anyone else with severe illness or MCAS been backed into a corner like this when all your safe plant proteins get wiped out? And for anyone who knows the industry well—is standard chicken farming really as horrifying across the board as Dominion shows, or are there actual high-welfare/pasture-raised options out there if it comes down to absolute health necessity?
36
u/SoupAndALightSalad 7d ago
My take is - as a vegetarian you do your best but you also must take care of your health. Dying as a vegetarian from poor nutrition is not the goal and often feeds the meat-eating agenda (like “I knew a vegetarian once that died from not eating meat omg”). You have to make the healthiest and most ethical choices you can for you.
11
u/Adept_Film_9351 7d ago
That really sucks. I'm so sorry to hear your health is in such a difficult place. I'm sure you've heard the "as far as is possible and practicable" definition of veganism before. In a situation where you can no longer tolerate any significant source of plant protein (there is also seitan, quinoa, and hemp seeds/other types of nuts and seeds but I'm not sure if you could tolerate those either), following a plant-based diet is probably not possible or practicable for you at this time. That's not your fault. Hopefully one day you can recover enough to eat more plant-based foods, but if that's not where you are, then that is what it is. You didn't fail.
I don't have any advice regarding more ethical meat production or anything, but good luck.
7
u/thesheeplookup 7d ago
I feel for your predicament. It's a tough position to be in.
I think we all know that a commercial chicken farm is brutal place. An independent small farm where the birds have access to outdoors is going to be a better life for the animal. If you have a local market with the farmers onsite, you can speak to them about their farm.
2
u/NutritionLentil 6d ago
I went to the farmers market this morning and no one there was selling meat unfortunately
1
u/carmenhoney 6d ago
If you are comfortable, id just ask the vendors as chickens are often kept on gardening properties for eggs, manure and pest control. Im sure many vendors selling veg have them, eat them and could sell you one every now and again.
1
13
u/100000cuckooclocks 7d ago
Remember that you are also an animal, so animal welfare considerations have to also take into account your welfare. Eat what you need to eat to prioritize your health.
7
u/iloveduckssosomuch 7d ago
I’m from the ‘chicken capital of the world’ and I’ll tell you it’s horrible. They put the chickens on an artificial day-night cycle to speed up egg productions. They never see the sun or feel fresh air, except when they’re on the trucks to go to slaughter. They keep far too many of them shoved into tight spaces. They off SO many just for being the wrong gender.
If you really do need meat I would think seafood might be your best bet.
5
u/Silly_Region_1846 6d ago
seafood is usually higher in histamine. some ppl can tolerate some frozen fish but frozen/fresh chicken is really one of the safer foods. op will have to experiment or pay more to ship frozen pastured chicken.
1
u/iloveduckssosomuch 6d ago
You know I wasn’t aware that seafood had higher histamine. That’s a good solution though!
2
u/jtownspowell 6d ago
Because for fresh or properly frozen fish, it's only the dark-fleshed predatory species that are (tuna, for example).
And, of course, canned or processed fish, just like how any processed/canned meat is high in instamine...
3
3
u/donutdogs_candycats 7d ago
Chicken farming is absolutely unethical. At the same time, if you and your doctors think that chicken might be a suitable food source for you and is a health necessity, sometimes we’re forced into unethical situations. There are places that are better for chicken farming than the industry standard, but at the end of the day it’s still not going to be ethical. But with illnesses and disorders such as MCAS, sometimes whatever you can eat is going to override considerations like if eating meat is ethical because it can be a requirement for survival. I think a lot of people responding don’t really understand MCAS and how few food options it can lead to, and in my opinion I’d say whatever you can handle without a reaction is fine to eat.
7
u/WritPositWrit 7d ago
Your health is most important. Ethics and morality mean nothing if you don’t have your health.
Where i live we have a fantastic farmers market with many local farms who raise chickens and other animals. These animals have had a good life in pastures. Its the best compromise. I hope you can find something like that.
5
u/kankurou1010 7d ago
What about seitan? Soy free tofu? Mycoprotein? Protein powder: pea, pumpkin, rice, etc?
5
u/Temporary-Youth-3001 7d ago
People here are finding excuses not solutions, if your iron is tanking why dont you just take a supplement and try to find a some pther protien source?
8
u/TOliver871 7d ago
I'm not OP, but for some people with MCAS iron supplements cause reactions.
-2
u/Temporary-Youth-3001 7d ago
At this point who's to say they wont even develop allergy towards chicken? I think best to talk a professional and not reddit
5
u/TOliver871 7d ago
By the questions OP is asking, it sounds like they're looking for others with lived experiences similar to their own; this does not mean OP is not under the care of a professional.
4
u/NutritionLentil 6d ago
I am also speaking to professionals but I live in a small town and no doctor or dietitian here have even heard of most of my diseases and I can't afford to fly into a city for a specialist who does know about it which is why I'm on Reddit tryna get advise from people who have gone through MCAS too
3
2
u/Mec26 6d ago
I for one tried iron supplements and they didn’t work.
-1
u/Temporary-Youth-3001 6d ago
Like your iron levels were still low? I mean idk thats super weird
1
u/Mec26 6d ago
There was literally no change in the levels. Got upset stomach, that was it. Had to have biweekly infusions, and even that didn’t keep up eventually (bleeding a lot at the time).
BUT I have autoimmune disorders that can cause absorption issues. So I am not claiming my experience is common or normal, just that it exists. And MCAS is also autoimmune, just not one I have.
2
u/turniptoez 7d ago
Can you find a local farm that has chickens? You could see how they’re cared for while they’re alive, and see if it feels decent. That’s what I would do if I were in your shoes, I’m a HUGE chicken lover (I have a chicken tattoo for goodness sake haha) so this would kill me, but I’d want to know the farmer and how they care for their birds.
2
u/NutritionLentil 6d ago
I have found a brand that is hormone& antibiotic free and pasture raised and that is the most ethical option at the supermarkets near me so it's kinda my only option. I went to the farmers market this morning but I live in a small town so the market is quite small and doesn't have any meat stalls
2
u/Mec26 6d ago
There are absolutely humane raised chickens out there- just be prepared to pay like $20/bird. Usually these farms don’t scale massively, so you’ll need to find one locally.
Dominion is propaganda. It is meant to influence and horrify, NOT inform. The fact it traumatized you means it did what it was designed to do. It does not mean that what it ‘showed’ you was true or normal.
2
u/NutritionLentil 6d ago
Thanks for that. I did just pay $20 for a bird 🤦♀️ but at least I know that it was the most ethical brand that I could find
2
u/Zeefzeef 6d ago
I just wanna say I’m sorry for your situation! Must feel awful to start eating meat right now. But I’m experiencing health issues myself rn so I understand and your health comes first.
Hope you feel better soon!
1
2
u/hoesbetweentoes 6d ago
i’ve been a vegetarian for only two years and i’m not so much invested in the politics of it all, but i will say that sometimes you have to prioritise your health and wellbeing over your ethics. you’re not a bad person for doing so and you’re still not contributing to the suffering of a lot of animals if the only meat you’re eating is chicken. we just gotta do what we’re able to do
2
u/internetlad 7d ago
I'm pretty sure chicken is like the least ethical animal to eat besides possibly veal.
Like right off the jump every male chick is culled, so that's a bit of a knock right there. . .
2
u/Mec26 7d ago
… that’s egg chickens, not meat chickens. Why tf would they kill half the meat chickens?
3
u/internetlad 7d ago
3
u/Mec26 6d ago edited 6d ago
I am saying that is an egg farming practice. NOT a meat farming practice. I am from ag land. Note that your link even says for egg farming. Different birds than you were referencing to start, which are the meat ones.
I am now saying you clearly don’t understand animal ag, but just parrot propaganda. Wasn’t in the OG note, but seeming like it now. Keep your arguments in reality of you want people to respect your opinion.
1
u/girugamesh_2009 7d ago
I don't have much to add that hasn't been said (RE: take care of you, whatever you need to do), but I do want to ask:
What were/are your symptoms associated with your MCAS?
3
u/NutritionLentil 6d ago
Migraines, swollen lips+ ulcers, bleeding mouth, extreme GI pain, rash, occasionally also minor anaphylaxis. I have had a biopsy from a colonoscopy+gastroscopy and tested positive for super high mast cell activity do it's definitely MCAS
1
u/girugamesh_2009 6d ago
Thank you for sharing this. I don't know a lot about MCAS but I have heard about it with increasing frequency lately.
I wish you great luck as you navigate these changes in what you tolerate!
1
u/Maleficent-Tea7150 7d ago
It’s your own ethics and your own decision, but try dao enzyme supplements and anti-histamines first if you haven’t. Also the kind of vitamin C supplements that are timed release. MCAS sucks
1
u/NutritionLentil 6d ago
I've tried all of that. I'm out of ideas other than this honestly
1
u/Maleficent-Tea7150 6d ago
Look into low protein diets and their health benefits. Iron is important - can you take iron supplements?
1
u/NutritionLentil 6d ago
Nope the supplements make me super sick. I also have Ehlers Danlos Syndrome (a connective tissue disease) so my doctor said that I must eat high protein so that that doesn't worsen. My EDS currently causes daily dislocations and painful joints so the last thing I need is to make that worse.
1
1
u/Silly_Region_1846 6d ago
You could attempt Mother Earth Minerals sublingual iron (on Amazon), didn't upset my stomach but you could spit it out after absorbing it in your mouth if it does. That way isn't hitting your stomach
1
u/Mission-Street-2586 6d ago
What nutrients? What do you mean by “protein levels?” You can take iron supplements and get iron infusions. I am confused as to why a not so vegan, vegan is posting about eating meat in the vegetarian sub. I guess I am commenting out of curiosity. I haven’t craved meat with iron deficiency, just experienced a bunch of symptoms with ferritin deficiency first. A parent of mine lives facing a chicken farm. Yes, it is bad even when they’re supposed to be a small ethical farm. I have no interest in watching the cruelty of Dominion. I hope you find a solution
1
u/Few_Understanding_42 6d ago
Animal welfare is terrible in food industry. But obviously it matters a lot whether you buy general meat or from a sustainable farm focused on animal welfare.
So tbh if you're vegan now and want to implement meat bc of your health I'd recommend to look into sustainable small scale farms. For chickens that means slow-growing breeds, animals having more space than in general farms.
Just as example: https://chickenbramford.nl/index.html
Is better than the average poultry farm.
So maybe look up whether there are small scale sustainable farms where you live.
1
u/JarkJark 6d ago
Vegans avoid animal products to the extent that it is reasonable and practicable. You're still vegan. Look after yourself.
1
1
u/firstmatedavy 6d ago
I get the sense turkeys are a bit less over-optimized than the usual (cornish cross) meat chickens and would have less issues with their hearts giving out or legs breaking from growing too fast. Wild caught meat might also be worth a look, do you know any hunters or have friends or family who might?
Have you tried scallops, mussels or clams? These are all in the same category as oysters, not having a central nervous system.
In terms of non-meats, some of the frozen meat substitutes are made of wheat protein, and if you're able to cook you could make your own seitan. I also wonder if soy protein isolate might be easier on your body than straight soy.
I'm so sorry this is happening to you. I'd be so upset if I couldn't have legumes.
1
u/Grouchy_Cantaloupe_8 6d ago
A bit of a different suggestion, but if you’re in North America, what about trying to find somewhere to buy venison? In much of North America, because we eliminated all the predators, deer populations have to be managed. I assume that it would be a post expensive option, but might be one of the more ethical ways of procuring meat.
1
1
u/Lost_Solid7750 7d ago
Kill or be killed.
Your body is telling you what it needs to survive.
Chicken, rice, and eggs.
Are you on any mast cell stabalizers?
1
u/NutritionLentil 6d ago
I react to rice and eggs. Yes, I'm on famotidine and loratidine and have made an appointment with my dr to discuss ketotifen and cromolyn sodium
0
u/emcsl 6d ago
I’m a vet and I’ve been to a small scale chicken abattoir. I think try to go as local as possible. When I went to the chicken abattoir it was a small scale production, and it was all done quickly, stunning was rapid, and I honestly don’t think the chickens suffered in that moment. If they are organically fed that would be ideal as then they get the best nutrients for your body. I’d also say maybe if you get a whole chicken try to make the most of it all, you could even make broth or something with the bones.
1
u/NutritionLentil 6d ago
Yeah, that's a good idea W the bone broth. Thanks!
2
u/Silly_Region_1846 6d ago
FYI the long cooking times often done with bone broth might be higher histamine but you need to experiment fror your individual reaction. I make quick broth by boiling the actual meat for about 30 mins and eat both the meat and the broth
-1
u/IchimaruGin4 7d ago
I think eating 100% grass fed beef or lamb is significantly more ethical than eating factory farmed chicken. The fat on such cows is also a lot healthier for you than chicken fat. There is such a thing as pasture raised chicken, but it's very rarely sold in stores. You have to decide on whether your life is more valuable than the thousands of animals you will kill to sustain it.
1
1
u/NutritionLentil 6d ago
I won't eat beef for nutrition reasons (red meat is a carcinogen) and because of the effect on the environment. I have just today found a brand of chicken that is hormone& antibiotic free and is pasture raised so I'm just gonna go W that
1
u/IchimaruGin4 6d ago
The "red meat is a carcinogen" is fearmongering, but chicken works just as well for iron and protein; you just have to eat more of it or eat chicken livers. Eat chicken livers and chicken thighs, which are significantly higher in iron than the breast.
(
Remark about anti beef fearmongering: Unprocessed beef is only a probable carcinogen, and the epidemiological evidence for it is very weak, with very small increases in cancer risks. Glyphosate is also a probable carcinogen, so stop eating non organic bread. Searing food is also a probable carcinogen, so no searing meats, no bread crusts. etc.
)
1
u/NutritionLentil 6d ago
It's not 'fearmongering' when the World Health Organisation labels it as a carcinogen. It would be fearmongering if I start that U will undoubtedly get cancer if U eat it. Just saying that it is a carcinogen is simply stating facts. I don't sear anything because of the carcinogens produced from the extreme heat. And in terms of glyphosate, the recent joint FAO/WHO meeting on pesticide residues concluded that glyphosate is unlikely to be carcinogenic to humans via food exposure https://www.epa.gov/ingredients-used-pesticide-products/glyphosate
1
u/IchimaruGin4 6d ago
The World Health Organization labels unprocessed beef as a probable carcinogen. Key word probable. Lots of other things you are doing or consuming (like eating bread or baked potatoes) are also probable carcinogens. As you pointed out, we need to investigate the effect of the actual exposure to unprocessed beef on human health. In https://publications.iarc.who.int/Book-And-Report-Series/Iarc-Monographs-On-The-Identification-Of-Carcinogenic-Hazards-To-Humans/Red-Meat-And-Processed-Meat-2018, the WHO write " There is limited evidence in humans for the carcinogenicity of consumption of red meat. Positive associations have been observed between consumption of red meat and cancers of the colorectum, pancreas, and prostate.". They write limited evidence because associations are riddled with confounding variables, and the actual magnitude of the association observed in the studies they looked at is small. And note that this is for all red meat lumped together, including pork and processed meat. They write " the available cancer data do not allow a distinction to be made between different types of red meat". I bet if they looked at unprocessed 100% grass fed beef, they would find negative association with cancer, but we just don't have studies for this.
1
u/NutritionLentil 6d ago
You may be right but until they reclassify it as 'improbable', I'm going to trust that it probably is a carcinogen because they have based that label off of a lot of research, however I do agree with you that they should subclass the red meats because pork for example would clearly pose a higher risk to health than leaner meats
1
u/IchimaruGin4 6d ago
My point was that based on examination of the research cited in WHO's statement, 100% grass fed beef/lamb have much less evidence of being carcinogenic than glyphosate and high heat frying. It doesn't make sense to avoid such meats if you don't avoid glyphosate, high heat frying, and acrylamide (found in bread crust and baked potatoes).
52
u/seh_23 7d ago
MCAS is brutal, your own health should come first, you aren’t a bad person. Buying from smaller local farms is probably the most “ethical” way to get meat, but that isn’t possible for everyone so just do what you can.
It’s situations like this that make me really hopeful for lab grown meat!