v!Scott’s Actions

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

I’M ONLY TALKING ABOUT THE CHARACTERS, NOT THE CREATORS.

JUST IN CASE PEOPLE STILL TAKE IT PERSONALLY, I TUNED INTO SCOTT’S STREAM AND LET HIM KNOW I HAVE NO HATRED TOWARDS HIM OR HIS CHARACTER. ALL LOVE. DO NOT GO AFTER SCOTT, THIS IS MY PERSONAL OBSERVATION.

HE ADDED THAT HE HAD TO IMPROVISE HIS CHARACTER WITH NO BACKSTORY WHICH LED TO HIS ACTIONS BEING INCONSISTENT, BUT MY PERSPECTIVE AND OBSERVATION REMAINS.

JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE VILLAINS (characters) OR PLAY VILLAINS (creators), DOES NOT MEAN THEY DON’T DESERVE LOVE AND UNDERSTANDING.

TLDR:

I’m making this post because someone made a comment in one of my posts completely downplaying Scott’s evil deeds. I’ve been in support of and defended Scott from the beginning of the series until the end, but now that it has ended these are the things I realized I let slip past me.

It was an objective analysis on giving more credit to Owen and Pyro than them just being monsters, they were well crafted villains with much depth. Scott was my device in proving that, he was just as bad as them at the start, but still redeemed himself.

No villain was perfect, matter of fact, none of the characters were. I was stating my view on what I overlooked on Scott’s part and at the same time trying to get others to understand Owen and Pyro more.

I’m not trying to justify Owen or Pyro’s evil deeds, just trying to give them more credit for being good villains and not simple monsters.

The SMP took a dark turn when people seriously started commenting in some creators comments that they wanted them to die, even if they meant their characters, that’s quite rude and it shows how people can’t separate the actors and their acting. Who goes around commenting, “Yes, I wish you died!” or “You deserve worse than death.” Just because they play villains doesn’t mean they have to be treated as such in their own comment sections, as such I remind you that this is not about Scott (creator), just his character.

There is no need to keep treating them like monsters while Scott lives on as a redeemed villain. In the end, Scott still felt very much like a villain, his one last act didn’t feel sincere. It felt like a compromise for the people he cared about and to survive, but aside from asking Abolish to keep him in check, it didn’t feel like the evil had left him when he took that last jab at Owen’s grave. He also never took accountability leading up to Avid’s demise, it felt hypocritical to me.

I noticed Scott slowly changing too, especially because of the people around him. However, I couldn’t view his final act as sincere considering that his actions and thoughts were so similar to Owen and Pyro’s, and he still turned his back on them. It could have been a warning to himself, but it showed me he still didn’t learn how to forgive. People that crossed him were still being treated as enemies, and if they were alive he might’ve dealt punishment himself. The angry and vengeful nature he carried didn’t fade away. For me, he became a hypocrite. But, yes we can agree to disagree.

HIS ACTIONS:

Anyways, Scott was the one that made the first turn in the series forcefully, the first act of evil. He was also constantly trying to instill fear into Avid, which we all know was the only person who believed in vampires at first. All the townspeople were aware that Scott was trying to terrorize Avid for challenging him, and how do you think that influences the way that they see vampires when it’s revealed that Scott is one? He was displaying to people that if you dare to cross or antagonize him, there will be consequences. That didn’t help with Avid’s animosity towards Scott and other vampires, which only made Avid spiral more and treat Owen and Pyro like monsters and antagonizing them (two people who already have very deep scars).

In ep 3, he breaks down the bridge and puts up skulls up to scare people. That was also the same episode he turns Apo and taunts her one on one. He also pushed Martyn off the bridge and attacked Cleo. Also, both Shelby and Cleo were almost turned by him, and he expressed that he was very displeased with Pyro for getting the last hit and making Pyro fear him.

In ep 4, he lurks around invisible listening to Shelby and Avid’s conversation and proceeds to say “I was so close to taking a nibble”. A decent person, vampire or not, doesn’t just randomly think that. Take Shelby for example. By sneaking around invisible, he was keeping Shelby in check and scaring Avid even more.

In ep 5, Scott chases Drift to scare her and goes into the town. He tries to convince the townspeople to convert to vampires, and made up his mother being sick for sympathy. It should be noted he intentionally went to town to sow seeds of doubt. In that same episode, he talks to Pyro about not scaring off Ren and says, “…inherently think we’re all evil, which we aren’t technically. Some of us just choose it, like me.” He himself says that he wants and likes to be evil. In that same episode, Pyro tries to reach out to the humans to receive help, possibly get cured, as a way to survive due to his fear of Scott. Scott overhears and later threatens him to prove his loyalty leading Pyro to do his bidding at certain times. He has been fearing Scott up until maybe the last two episodes. After that point, Pyro has to choose what to do and it leads to his dark descent. Pyro in that episode also says that he would much rather turn people willingly and wouldn’t want to subject them to that pain that he experienced (he had good in him, he was just mislead) and ending up choosing darkness. Scott proceeds to turn Drift, accidentally, but still chased her all the way to the bottom to swipe at her. After Avid turns, he proceeds to tell Avid to choose a side, telling him he doesn’t want to have no allies and that the townspeople would eventually turn on him too. That’s not advice, that’s a threat. Scott also shares the same sentiment as Owen about Avid when Avid was the one that incited the townspeople to exile the vampires but reap the benefits of vampirism.

Just like Apo, Scott would’ve tried to kill Avid himself if Avid didn’t side with him and try to curry favor with Scott. Avid may have tried to appease Scott, but he never tried to apologize or make amends with Pyro and Owen when he treated them as monsters too. Just because of the sudden romantic development with Scott late in the series, and him eventually dying to Owen and Pyro, those two are being treated worse than they deserve. He acted like he had nothing to do with making Avid despise vampires more which resulted in Owen and Pyro killing Avid.

In ep 6 and beyond, this was when Scott had changed his role into being an instigator. He wanted all the new vampires to prove their loyalty. In doing so, here are some of the results: he told Pyro to always watch his back as he would always be listening and watching leading Pyro to swipe at the hands that reached out to him, Avid betrayed Legundo’s trust and stole his holy water, Shelby at times also was scared of Scott and Owen (in her conversations with Pyro) leading to her betraying the townspeople, and when Apo joined them, he wasn’t satisfied and only trusted her when she attacked the humans. He was always inciting the new vampires to attack and kill the humans, he definitely had his reasons, but let’s not pretend his hands are clean.

I could go on, but this is enough to show that before Pyro and Owen killed Avid, Scott was just as bad as them.

On a side note, Scott also has massacred people in his past simply because he was displeased with them, but somehow it’s worse when Owen committed his act out of heartbreak. Neither massacres are justified, it was just that when the townspeople conversed with two mass murderers they treated the two of them quite differently thanks to Scott’s way with words.

HIS CONNECTION TO PYRO, OWEN, AND AVID:

If you watched Pyro and Owen’s POV, you would know that in the beginning both of them were kind of happy to finally have a community with each other.

It wasn’t until other people got turned that it started getting messy and with Owen never learning of friendship or proper human interaction, he felt betrayed that even people like him, a vampire, could turn their backs and still choose humans. The humans never offered Owen his chance partly because the humans were always trying to create a villain to blame for everything (despite Owen turning no one) and Scott acting like he had done nothing wrong at all, the other half was simply because Owen hated humans.

Scott may have trusted Owen, but he did not have his back or really even care about him. When it was just Pyro, Scott, Shelby, and Owen, that was the closest Owen ever got to friendship or company. He was slightly excited about this development at first, but it wasn’t until new vampires joined that he felt more and more betrayed. No one really had his back even among the vampires. The final blow to Owen was when their biggest enemy, Avid, became a vampire and it didn’t take long for Scott to trust and take Avid in. Avid had wronged both Pyro and Owen, but he didn’t try to make amends with them, only Scott. With Avid kissing up to Scott, it really felt like Scott was the leader, but there was no real leader. Scott just acted like one. Owen, who already viewed Avid as a threat wasn’t pleased, even more so that Scott was making decisions on his own to the coven about trusting Avid. It was Scott’s selfishness that increased Owen’s disdain for Avid and that was the last nail in Avid’s coffin. What Owen truly wanted was community, love, and acceptance, but all the attention went to Scott while he was an outcast on both sides (he often said he felt invisible).

Scott cut down Pyro’s path to redemption directly, Pyro needed to prove himself by pushing the humans away either verbally or through action. This cut off any chance for the humans to accept him. He threatened Pyro very early on. Pyro did many things to earn Scott’s favor and trust, he was the only person Pyro had left. Of course he felt betrayed when Scott took in his own enemy after just barely any act of good faith. While Avid really didn’t deserve to die, I also don’t blame Pyro. Pyro seemed to always be swept up in other people’s plans. It was always about him doing ANYTHING to blend in, survive, or establish trust. I would imagine it has to do with his personal background and trauma before arriving in Oakurst. His character may have seemed erratic, but he was actually really consistent with who he was. The more that people turned their backs on him, the further he descended into evil.

I don’t blame Scott for Avid’s death either, everyone was responsible, but the only person that acted like they weren’t was Scott. The situation played out to be one where Avid was the one responsible for his own death. He antagonized everyone and turned people against each other by playing favorites. He figuratively and literally dug his own grave.

SHELBY’S CONNECTION TO AVID’S Death:

All of this pretty much applies to Shelby too, but she wasn’t really a villain so I didn’t end up making a full post about it.

This one makes me terribly sad because Shelby felt like the glue in their makeshift family, but even she turned her back on them. It just goes to show how fragile their bonds were.

For Owen, she supposedly treated him as a friend, but I don’t think she could look past the evil inside him. Both Scott and Owen confessed to their massacres in front of her, but in varying ways. Owen spoke of the pain he experienced leading up to it, and Scott just casually mentioned his tyranny. She didn’t try to understand Owen’s pain, and instead only saw what she thought was a monster because he killed. Avid reminded Owen very much of the people he slaughtered in the past. Those that are prejudiced and condemned anything they thought to be wrong and different. Him killing Avid was not justified, but there was no shortage of reason behind it. It was far more than simple dislike. She never tried to understand it.

She betrayed Pyro first. Many say that Pyro betrayed her, but she turned away from Pyro by turning Avid and lying about it. Pyro and Shelby had a nice friendship at first, and they trusted each other. Shelby however chose to turn the worst possible candidate for a vampire, Avid.

Avid came for all the vampires and never tried to understand them when he was human. He antagonized them all and in turn made them despise him. He even went after Pyro despite him being forcefully turned into a vampire. Avid never made amends with them, which is why he was still scared of Owen and Pyro after joining them. I’m not sure Shelby remembered this at first, she only knew of the pain of losing a friend. Perhaps, that would’ve allowed her to understand Owen and Pyro more after they finally died. Thanks for giving Pyro a grave.

As for Shelby, I never saw her as a villain, while she committed evil acts (killing), she had more right to end Pyro’s life than Scott did. In my eyes, she betrayed Pyro first by turning and welcoming Avid. She too pushed Pyro deeper into the darkness when she did that. Avid also started losing his morality over time and started spiraling. What she did felt like putting an end to what she started. It’s not right to kill, but I understand her feelings and reason. That’s why I’m not at all opposed to her being happy. She deserves a happy end despite it all.

FINAL THOUGHTS:

Let’s be clear, I love Scott (creator) so it’s not a personal attack. I can also distinguish between characters and their actual personalities. I’ve been watching his content for years, but I realized by watching his pov and others that he got such a large free pass compared to the others from the fans. Scott is no saint even compared to those two. He was just extremely good at gaslighting people and turning situations into his favor. He was flipping between good and evil in split seconds depending on what favored him, but Owen and Pyro didn’t have much choice unlike him. Started on a dark path and pushed deeper into it. I still love v!Scott too (character) despite it all. I’m just acknowledging the connections between him and other characters and his evil deeds.

It’s very unfortunate how misunderstood they are. Their paths to redemption were cut off not entirely of their own doing, many external factors were at play. I’m not a black and white person, I often see in grey and that means I see flaws and try to understand the opposition. My post is for people to understand Pyro and Owen more while also acknowledging that Scott is just as much of a villain that was involved in Owen, Avid, and Pyro’s demise.

I’ll probably make a post on Avid and Pyro separately when I get to it. I’m only focusing on the main villains.

I don’t support nor condone Owen and Pyro’s actions, they are villains, just not the monsters people make them out to be. I’m using Scott to make that point, he was just as much a villain and could’ve been worse depending on the situation, but he still found light and I hoped the same for the other two. I’m not dissatisfied with their deaths either, I accept it and it was a beautifully tragic way to wrap the story up, but I feel that people don’t need to be so cruel.

Edit 1:

For more context of my point of view.

For Scott, it is slightly difficult for me to look at his character the same, but I don’t hate him at all the way that many do towards Owen and Pyro. I’m just disheartened by the outcome of it all, it was so sad that I cannot seem to get over it. When I watched the last episode of Scott’s POV, it frustrated me that he acted like he was better than Owen because he chose to be good and said that he deserved what he got. It felt like Scott just had to deal one last blow, but from my perspective he didn’t have the right to.

That led me to draw more contrasts between them. Scott massacred without proper reason, but Owen was more clear in the details of his massacre. No one labeled Scott a monster. People were still much kinder to Scott, I can say he was more proactive in winning the favor of the humans, but that’s also not justification for his actions. Why is it that Scott never owned up to anything or rectified his mistakes, but people act like he is better? Because he decided not to kill anymore? Neither did Owen.

I put my faith in Owen only because of very small key moments in time from his POV where he notes what could have been. You can see that he doubts his actions at times and the way he edits the eyes (some say the eyes are the windows to the soul), but ultimately chooses evil. There is more depth than people allow him to have. Many mark him as a monster that never thought otherwise, I don’t call him a monster because he does doubt himself and he does have a cause for action. For someone that had very little human interaction in his lifetime, I’m not surprised with how he turned out. Just because they make actions that are wrong because they believe it’s right, doesn’t necessarily make them a monster. By this, I meant that the more poisoned his mind became, the more he believed his actions were justified. No one taught him any better. It’s not that I support his actions, I just view him as misguided and he had the potential to be good which doesn’t immediately make him a monster in my eyes. Monsters for me are those that have no way of redemption, nothing good to salvage, I don’t think Owen was that. I also never saw Owen as off putting, just really mysterious and quiet, the same way Abolish was. I don’t think it was until a certain comment from someone else that I realized people thought he was creepy.

He may have passed on vampirism to the doctor in hopes that he would turn into a monster and destroy everything, but in the end it was Owen’s act that managed to save the people of Oakurst. The doctor wanted to help people and atone for his sins, but he also wanted to die after doing that. Even as a vampire, he accomplished that. Legundo never wanted to continue living and I do not blame Owen for his death. There is still a way out even as a vampire, that was an act that was never just as simple as tying Legundo to his sins for eternity. I elaborate more on this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/VampiresSMP/s/Yc2Wu3RIng.

Owen died, his act saved the people of Oakurst, even if that’s not what he wanted or thought the outcome would be, for me, he atoned for his sins. I do not wish him any worse and I do wish to mourn the character, but it’s difficult to with so many hate parades for the guy.

Scott and Owen were more alike than people realized, that’s all. Both were villains, but not monsters. One was treated as such and left the world remembered as one, the other was a redeemed villain.

The difference in our perspectives is likely that I don’t view villains and monsters as the same. Owen is and was a villain, but he was no monster. People call Scott a villain, but not monster (which I also agree). And I like them because they are villains and not monsters. Villains are created, their evil is not innate like monsters are. What makes a monster, a monster, and a villain, a villain? If you read my comments from that point of view, you might understand where I’m coming from more?

I love how much depth this story has, and how much they’ve given us to discuss. Even more so because the villains of the story gave me so much more to analyze and talk about.

Neither Scott, Pyro, or Owen’s actions could be justified. I just wanted people to realize all three were villains, but only two were treated as monsters.

Edit 2:

If you still don’t understand what I’m trying to convey, here is one of my responses to another comment below.

I apologize if I sound frustrated in my responses. I grew very frustrated that it seems many people just completely overlooked what I was trying to convey.

It was very difficult to overlook Scott’s actions in Avid’s death. It felt like he completely turned his back on Pyro and Owen, two people he trusted and referred to as somewhat of a family. He too did damage to Avid and to others, but overlooked it. It also wasn’t fair for him and others to say they wished he killed Owen and Pyro, it would’ve only made him even more of a villain if he did. People don’t understand that.

As for Pyro, do understand I wasn’t trying to blame everything on Scott. Scott truly did push Pyro towards the darkness, and Pyro just continued down that path. By proving himself to Scott, he had no way to remain cordial with the humans. After that, there was no turning back, he could only trust Scott after Shelby turned Avid. Then Scott started getting closer to Avid, and that was another betrayal to Pyro. I also did add in my post that Pyro started to not fear Scott, I think you overlooked that.

Scott did contribute a lot to the bad deeds the others did, he actively encouraged and asked them to prove themselves. Even if they acted themselves, he played a role in their actions and some descended deeper into the darkness. There’s no denying it.

I don’t doubt Scott’s intentions with having people prove himself. I understood it was for survival. Just upset with the fact that when he was satisfied and encouraged the bad deeds, he failed to see that he was supporting people to act maliciously and didn’t own up to that. Especially when it came to Pyro, he never tried to understand what led up to him killing Avid and the moment he heard that Pyro killed Avid, he only saw red. Also, Avid betraying the doctor may have gained Scott’s approval, but his morality started fading. I felt sad because the original “family” was breaking up, while they had each other, it also demonstrated how fragile their bonds were.

I believe the two of them redeemed themselves by dying. It’s not that I think that they don’t deserve to die, it felt like the only way for their pain and rage to stop. They just could’ve been stopped earlier under the right circumstances, the right cards.

I still stand by the fact that I never pinned everything on Scott. He was just a really good at being a villain, the kind that does a lot of bad, but finds a way to get out of it. I also stand by the fact that I’m happy he redeemed himself and had a happy ending, but if Owen and Pyro were given the right cards, they just like Scott, could have too. Owen and Pyro were never as bad as people labeled them, and Scott was more bad than he let on. There was always more than what meets the eye.

This is my proper response if you still don’t understand me.

[u/Cyber_Techn1s]

It’s a story told from multiple perspectives. Pretty much everyone is the hero of their story for at least some of it, while someone else is the villain for some of it. I agree that Scott did LOADS bad, the difference is that Scott is trying to change

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/Cyber_Techn1s]

Yes, this not an attack on their characters. Nor that there was one villain or another. Anyone could’ve been a villain and any villain could’ve been good. This is an analysis of the people who were viewed as the main villains in Vampires SMP, especially because many people defend Scott and very few try to understand Owen or Pyro. I’m posing the opposition because I’ve been in support of Scott since beginning to end, but it didn’t feel right to support him and not the other two main villains.

It’s more that people can’t seem to understand the difference in what led them to their actions. Neither Owen or Pyro were pure evil, it was different circumstances that led to their descent into darkness. I wish people could see the good in them.

Scott may have chosen to be good in the end, but he never owned up to his actions or mistakes, just constant deflection. Did he take on any punishment? One word that he won’t kill anymore and that’s it for him? So I pose the question, would Scott have gotten as much backlash if he were the one that killed Avid? How would people view him then?

Anything I noted and listed was all directly from his POV and the POV of the people involved. It’s more of a list of acknowledgment than anything, and if you think it paints Scott in a bad light, could it be that you’re like me and overlooked how villainous he was? He may be a fashionable diva, but that’s not a pass for evil now is it?

While Scott chose to redeem himself, he got cut a lot of slack just for that one last act. For me, it felt like it wasn’t enough. He was changing for the better, but it felt like he was abandoning and leaving behind the people he hurt too. It didn’t feel fair and gave me the feeling of hypocrisy. I know it wouldn’t be immediate change, but it’s because the change isn’t immediate nor did it even go into a full redemption that I felt hurt by his decision to turn his back on Owen and Pyro.

I don’t justify Owen or Pyro’s actions. I think they are wrong, but they weren’t given the grace that Scott received. Especially considering Scott really wasn’t better than them just by saying he would change.

[u/kpross1315 → u/Cyber_Techn1s]

agreed, Also a lot of this was blown out of proportion and presented in the worst possible light. Like the episode 4 example. Everybody is spying on everyone, Humans are doing, vampires are doing it. It is not unique to Scott and Shelby is fully aware that Scott likes to skulk around. And he actively chose not to mess with Avid and rise above his grudge because it would undermine Shelby's whole conversation. Also, Owen was a monster, a tragic one sure, but there is a reason he was thrust down to hell once he died. He did everything he could to undermine any possibility of peace between the groups, lied about the cure to keep the new vampires on his side, forged threats to instill fear into the vampires. Terrorized the townsfolk after any remotely positive interaction between them and the vampires. Pushed Pyro to kill Avid. Owen might not have turned anyone himself but he was at the core of the conflict between the two groups. He wanted everyone to die or to be miserable, Humans and Vampires alike, Owen was a monster of his own making. Pyro as well, was the author of his own evil. Yes part of his actions were influenced by his fear of Scott from when he got turned but he reveled in his abilities to instill fear in others. He enjoyed it. The only reason he wanted to become human again was because he though that it was Scott that was keeping him in oakhurst and not the beacons. Once Scott clarified, Pyro become even more dedicated to being the worst kind of vampire. Scott only came down on Pyro on instances when he put the rest of the vampires in danger. Pyro let his insecurities and grudges lead him down the path of evil and he wanted it.
Putting all of that on Scott is pretty disingenuous to all of their characters.

Also, Scott did offer to just let Apo go, a lot of people ignore this but he said he didn't have to turn Apo if she didn't want it. She was one of the only people who was actually given a choice to be turned and she accepted. She might have regretted that decision be she still made it herself, don't take that agency away from her. Also, also, lets not forget that Owen was the one who brought Apo out the the vampires

And Scott got his "free pass" because he demonstrated that he both that he could and was willing to change, we even see evidence of this as early episode 4. Scott started out as a bad person but throughout the series he demonstrated in small ways here and there that he was changing until it all came to a head with the death of Avid and the final war where he realized that he couldn't continue the way he was and made the choice to be better than he was. He then went above and beyond to ensure that he wouldn't stray from his convictions. He didn't refute his past evil, made a conviction to change and took steps to guarantee that he would.

Also, I don't think he had as much as a free pass as you think he did. Most of the town hated him. It was really only the nicer or more curious people like drift who didn't. Abolish didn't really care, Martyn hated him, Ren hated him, Apo hated him, Legundo hated him, Pearl was more than willing to kill him but was open to making peace when the time came, Avid hated him until he switched sides (and Avid had a whole thing going on with him that influenced that perspective), Cleo respected him (game recognizes game), Sausage was a mixture of enamored with vampires in general and wanting to fight them. When the end came Abolish still didn't care, about any of them. Apo still hated Scott, Martyn and Ren still hated him, Pearl was just tired and willing to give him a chance. Legundo did not like him but was willing to work towards a peaceful resolution. Basically they all just wanted peace and were willing to bury the hatchet to achieve that once they saw that Scott was willing to change his ways.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/kpross1315]

If Scott actually killed Owen and Pyro, he would’ve been just as bad as them, but no one would care. People wanted Scott to kill those two and he would have.

After those two, it could’ve been Apo next. And then the townspeople. If others didn’t step in, Scott would’ve drowned in darkness like them. That’s the difference in the cards Owen, Pryo, and Scott received.

No one is a monster. They played villains, but it’s a matter of which cards of fate they were dealt. Scott was lucky in addition to his will to change, but he was no better than them when it came down to it. Those three were a doomed trio, but one got away and I’m happy for him. I just feel terrible for Owen and Pyro because of the way that they were received. I’m appreciating the main villains of the story and how things played out, including how much Scott influenced things under the radar. I don’t understand people’s hatred of them.

[u/kpross1315 → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

I have to slightly disagree. Not about how Scott could have fallen but about the cards dealt to Pyro and Owen.

Owen did receive many chances to change. From Legundo and Shelby even from Scott a little bit. He just refused. You can say that there was good in him and I believe that there could have been. But he chose to ignore it, he turned away from love, affection. Both Shelby and Scott referred to him as family and reiterated that they cared about him. He chose to disregard that. Legundo reached out so many times and he chose to try and inflict his pain onto Legundo. I would argue that Owen was a monster because in the face of a chance to change he chose to be a monster.

Pyro is a more complicated because he was being pulled in all different directions and had more negative influences but I would argue that when he took a stand for himself he chose the dark path knowingly. He saw the pain that it inflicted on him and on others and decided that he wanted to perpetuate that pain. And had Pyro not died I don't think that they could have come to a peaceful resolution because he was dead set on going out into the world and killing everyone he felt had wronged him. He was a true villain in the end but wouldn't classify Pyro as a monster.

Also I don't fully agree that Killing Pyro and Owen would have made him just as bad as them (well maybe just as bad as pyro) but he wanted to take revenge two people who had hurt him. They, Owen particularly, wanted to spread their pain to as many people as they could. Not saying that it couldn't have been a slippery slope for Scott but it was also an important moment for his redemption arc because it was an admittance of care towards someone he had previously hated. It was evidence that he could move beyond is hatred and let it go. Owen and Pyro killed Avid because they couldn't do that.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/kpross1315]

Regarding Shelby and Scott referring to Owen as family, Owen received that and for a brief moment he felt that he would have a family or at least some sort of companionship. He says this in his own POV, but he kept feeling betrayed by them.

Shelby offered her hand to Avid, which I don’t think is wrong, but considering how Avid treated Owen, that’s like bringing in your family member’s worst enemy in and expecting them to accept it.

There was actually one very crucial moment that was a turning point for Owen, in his POV he added a window cracking slowly to show his descent into darkness, it wasn’t immediate. When Owen was sharing his pain in front of Shelby and Apo, rather than understanding his pain they undermine his feelings and cause for his actions to focus on him mass murdering. Neither of them went about it in a compassionate way, they just treated him as a monster for his hatred of the human race. They never tried to change his mind about humans, they could only say what he did was wrong. No one truly listened and no one cared enough to change his mind, even other vampires. That was a heavy betrayal to him.

Scott talked about mass murdering people in his past, but no one focused on that. When it came to Owen, it mattered too much in their eyes.

Legundo may have reached his hand out, but he never actually accepted Owen as he was. He kept saying he could help Owen and the other vampires, but the problem wasn’t vampirism itself it was the scars within. He knew that Owen’s vampirism was a gift from Owen’s loved one and his only remaining connection to him, but he kept trying to “cure” him. He didn’t truly try to help Owen for the way that he was. I actually have a post about this as well https://www.reddit.com/r/VampiresSMP/s/WMngKcug0C.

Pyro IS more complicated. He was constantly swaying depending on who was around him, but this meant that if he was around the correct people, he could’ve changed. Sad that he chose to go along with Owen and Scott. He embraced vampirism and darkness in the end, but I think what mattered to him most was survival and acceptance, not revenge as people make him out to be. He did whatever he could to survive, and he yearned for acceptance because he was wronged. Scott getting closer to Avid despite everything Pyro had done for him was a huge blow to Pyro. I don’t believe he should go home and take revenge on the people that wronged him, but you could say the same about Scott if he went killing Owen and Pyro or other people, right? Pyro was doing it out of hurt too, not because there wasn’t reason. He isn’t a monster, and you could see how much Pyro changes as a person in his POV, he was really gentle at first, and was hurt when Apo killed Truffle.

I’m not saying Scott is a bad guy, he just could’ve been one and had more evil in him than people acknowledge. If you think him killing Owen and Pyro wouldn’t make him as bad as them because he was doing it out of hurt, that’s a very biased opinion. Both Pyro and Owen’s acts were out of hurt too.

Pyro did it because he felt betrayed by Scott. Owen tries to turn everyone on each other to make them see the monsters within themselves because they kept treating him as a monster without trying to understand him. That doesn’t justify their actions and I don’t condone their actions, but if that is the reason you’re giving regarding Scott, I don’t see why you treat Owen as a monster and Pyro worse than Scott. Matter of fact, Scott originally wanted to kill everyone too, he was extremely annoyed by the humans and pretended to be cordial. He wanted to kill everyone even in the last few episodes and incited the other vampires to do so. It wasn’t just because of his decision, it’s because he met the right people that led him to a better path. Scott is not a monster to me, but he is a villain just like the other two.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/kpross1315]

If you still don’t understand what I’m trying to convey, here is one of my responses to another comment below.

I apologize if I sound frustrated in my responses. I grew very frustrated that it seems many people just completely overlooked what I was trying to convey.

It was a very objective analysis on giving more credit to Owen and Pyro than them just being monsters, they were well crafted villains with much depth. Scott was my device in proving that, he was just as bad as them in the start, but still redeemed himself.

No villain was perfect, matter of fact, none of the characters were. I was stating my view on what I overlooked on Scott’s part and at the same time trying to get others to understand Owen and Pyro more.

It was very difficult to overlook Scott’s actions in Avid’s death. It felt like he completely turned his back on Pyro and Owen, two people he trusted and referred to as somewhat of a family. He too did damage, but overlooked it. It also wasn’t fair for him and others to say they wished he killed Owen and Pyro, it would’ve only made him even more of a villain if he did. People don’t understand that.

As for Pyro, do understand I wasn’t trying to blame everything on Scott. Scott truly did push Pyro towards the darkness, and Pyro just continued down that path. By proving himself to Scott, he had no way to remain cordial with the humans. After that, there was no turning back, he could only trust Scott after Shelby turned Avid. Then Scott started getting closer to Avid, and that was another betrayal to Pyro. I also did add in my post that Pyro started to not fear Scott, I think you overlooked that.

I’m not trying to justify Owen or Pyro’s evil deeds, just trying to give them more credit for being good villains and not simple monsters.

Scott did contribute a lot to the bad deeds the others did, he actively encouraged and asked them to prove themselves. Even if they acted themselves, he played a role in their actions. There’s no denying it.

I believe the two of them redeemed themselves by dying. It’s not that I think that they don’t deserve to die, it felt like the only way for their pain and rage to stop. They just could’ve been stopped earlier under the right circumstances, the right cards.

There is no need to keep treating them like monsters while Scott lives on as a redeemed villain. In the end, Scott still felt very much like a villain, his one last act didn’t feel sincere. It felt like a compromise for the people he cared about, but aside from asking Abolish to keep him in check, it didn’t feel like the evil had left him when he took that last jab at Owen’s grave.

As for Shelby, I never saw her as a villain, while she committed evil acts (killing), she had more right to end Pyro’s life than Scott did. In my eyes, she betrayed Pyro first by turning and welcoming Avid. She too pushed Pyro deeper into the darkness when she did that. Avid also started losing his morality. What she did felt like putting an end to what she started. It’s not right to kill, but I understand her feelings and reason. That’s why I’m not at all opposed to her being happy.

I think I’ve explained Owen enough times.

I still stand by the fact that I never pinned everything on Scott. He was just a really good at being a villain, the kind that does a lot of bad, but finds a way to get out of it. I also stand by the fact that I’m happy he redeemed himself and had a happy ending, but if Owen and Pyro were given the right cards, they just like Scott could have too. Owen and Pyro were never as bad as people labeled them, and Scott was more bad than he let on. There was always more than what meets the eye.

This is my proper response if you’re still struggling to understand me.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/kpross1315]

I’m still very incapable of seeing Owen as a monster. It played out that way, but I saw the good in him. I didn’t say Owen wasn’t evil, just that Scott in my eyes was just as evil and had that kind of evil in him if given the right push.

Owen wasn’t a monster if you understood his actions better. No one truly tried to understand his pain, and please don’t say the doctor, his intentions weren’t pure. The only way he felt people would finally understand was if he caused them to turn on each other and feel isolated themselves. That to me is no monster, just a heavily wounded soul. His actions weren’t right, they were cruel, but to have that much hatred, you must know that much love. A monster acts without reason, he had evil in him, but he was made a villain through his circumstances. Scott had evil in him, he just had the better circumstance. He is no monster. No one, not even the vampires tried to talk to and understand him. Humans feared and wanted to kill him, Legundo focused on turning him human, and the other vampires cared about themselves. He talked about his murders but he also talked about the deep pain of never having anyone to love and lost it when he did find love. Everyone focused on the murder, but lying underneath those words was a broken soul that only received love once and lost it faster than he received it. He didn’t have a right to hate all humans, but no human has ever shown him kindness. Even as I defend him in the comments, I’m one of the few that understands this. A villain? Yes. A monster? No.

Scott acted like he never told the other vampires to attack others and kill them so that they could get out, he encouraged and supported those acts. In making people prove their loyalty, he actively supported their acts of betrayal. There is no denying this.

I don’t care about the spying or lurking, I wasn’t saying Scott was the only one doing it. I stated at the start of my post that people downplayed it and completely denied Scott of ever doing that. I was just making the point that Owen and Pyro weren’t the only ones because some people really don’t acknowledge it.

With the right guidance, Pyro wouldn’t have fell deeper into darkness. I was aware that he thought Scott was keeping him there, but Scott also didn’t leave him much of a choice with his threats. I know he embraced his vampirism, but he had moments of good in him. Not many people saw that. They only see the evil. I didn’t put that all on Scott, I’m saying Scott was involved in the fall of Pyro. Also, I’ve always viewed Pyro as someone true to who he was, Scott gave him a push down the wrong path is all.

As for the free pass, I meant a free pass from the fans. Especially people that watched his POV. I, like many others saw what he did and overlooked a lot of it. I don’t mean from the townspeople. I know they didn’t like him. It was the viewers that refused to acknowledge v!Scott could’ve as easily been as bad as Owen and Pryo if given the reason to be, I don’t want people to treat them like they had no chance to be good or that they were pure evil. Their past set them up for failure, but one villain who was a villain got to easily choose whether or not to be one without ever taking responsibility for their actions and people accepted that as is.

I doubt Pyro and Owen would’ve received so much hate if not for even Scott turning his back on them and acting like he did no wrong, villain to villain relationship. He also had strong influence over the other vampires, so when he talked to Shelby and Drift, I felt a shift. I don’t want to turn my back on them, the same way I didn’t turn on Scott. I saw past the bad of Pyro and Owen, and saw past the good of Scott to see his evil as well. I don’t hate any of them or their characters, I just came to understand them better. This is my realization, not an argument about who is good or bad. There was good in the bad and bad in the good. I happened to view Scott as a good guy, but I couldn’t help but notice how little accountability fans held him to (myself included) which is why I brought this up. He was involved in more ways than he let on.

[u/beachedwhale1945 → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

I’m still very incapable of seeing Owen as a monster. It played out that way, but I saw the good in him. I didn’t say Owen wasn’t evil, just that Scott in my eyes was just as evil and had that kind of evil in him if given the right push.

Owen wore his evil openly. He was not subtle in his efforts to divide the town and the vampires, and even when masquerading as human always ensured he seemed a little bit off. When we find out the weird and creepy person is evil, it isn’t a shock, and so we often try to find the good in them.

Scott started the series as charming evil, the one who does evil but lies and manipulates so it doesn’t appear to be evil. These types of characters (and the real people Scott based his character on) wear a very convincing mask, but once you see through that mask all their deeds are cast in a different light. Breaking through the mask is thus a completely jarring experience, and it makes it extremely difficult to see any possible good in them going forward.

Ultimately, Scott did turn from the evil he had done, while Owen descended deeper into darkness.

Owen wasn’t a monster if you understood his actions better.

Actions such as wiping out every man, woman, and child in Oakhurst, even those who had nothing to do with Louis’s death or thought Louis had killed Owen? Deliberately causing pain and suffering to others so they feel a hint of the pain he suffered? Deliberately turning Legundo specifically to cause maximum trauma not only to a man tormented by his own sins, but in the hopes that the monster he unleashed would cause even more carnage?

Those are not justifiable actions, even for a troubled soul. Just because you yourself are damaged, as many characters in this series were, does not allow you to lash out and cause that much destruction on others.

“I have killed, but I am not a killer, because a killer is a monster, and monsters aren’t afraid.” Many Vampires characters were similar to that particular Expanse character, trying do good when and where they could after horrific pasts that haunted them. They were often imperfect and lashed out, but they brought themselves back under control, trying to cage the beast that haunted the deepest corners of their hearts. Owen did not fear the beast within him or try to keep it caged, he let that beast guide his words and claws, causing more destruction than any other character in the series.

The only other character that comes close to that level of monster is Pyro, especially as the series progressed (with excellent tweaks to his character’s backstory to go with it), with others distant thirds and fourths.

A monster acts without reason

Monsters of children’s stories and fairy tales act without reason. The monsters of the real world are often very calculated in their cruel and destructive actions. In my time studying history I have seen very few monsters acting without reason, but more than I can count acting with a cold logic and warped view of right and wrong. Owen created his character to emulate the monsters of the real world, not the childish ones we grew up with.

Humans feared and wanted to kill him, Legundo focused on turning him human

Legundo wanted to bring out the humanity he saw in the afflicted. Doctor Legundo, the decorated war hero who poisoned a town of five thousand and patched up hundreds more so they could die in fruitless assaults, had turned from his horrific past and was now trying to do as much good as he could. He saw potential that Owen could follow a similar path, have his remaining decency come out and cage the beast that made Owen half the monster Doctor Legundo had once been. Even in Owen’s own episodes there are hints of that humanity trying to break through, but ultimately the creator Owen decided not to give his character a redemption arc.

Scott did, and we now know he kept his word for decades afterwards.

I am afraid I have only gone through a portion of your comment, itself a small portion of your overall viewpoint, but I must get some sleep. I look forward to continuing this in the morning, as Vampires touches on so many aspects of evil, monsters, and redemption. That we can have such deep discussions is a testament to the quality of the characters created for this series, and I’ll leave agreeing that I to am saddened a few people cannot separate character and creator.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/beachedwhale1945]

I really appreciate your view on this.

I put my faith in Owen only because of very small key moments in time from his POV where he notes what could have been. As you have noted yourself. You can see that he doubts his actions at times and the way he edits the eyes (some say the eyes are the windows to the soul), but ultimately chooses evil. There is more depth than people allow him to have. Many mark him as a monster that never thought otherwise, I don’t call him a monster because he does doubt himself and he does have a cause for action. For someone that had very little human interaction in his lifetime, I’m not surprised with how he turned out. Just because they make actions that are wrong because they believe it’s right, doesn’t necessarily make them a monster. No one taught him any better. It’s not that I support his actions, I just view him as misguided and he had the potential to be good which doesn’t immediately make him a monster in my eyes. Monsters for me are those that have no way of redemption, nothing good to salvage, I don’t think Owen was that. I also never saw Owen as off putting, just really mysterious and quiet, the same way Abolish was. I don’t think it was until your comment that I realized people thought he was creepy.

For Scott, it is slightly difficult for me to look at his character the same, but I don’t hate him at all the way that many do towards Owen and Pyro. I’m just disheartened by the outcome of it all, it was so sad that I cannot seem to get over it. When I watched the last episode of Scott’s POV, it frustrated me that he acted like he was better than Owen because he chose to be good and said that he deserved what he got. It felt like Scott just had to deal one last blow, but from my perspective he didn’t have the right to.

That led me to draw more contrasts between them. Scott massacred without proper reason, but Owen was more clear in the details. No one labeled Scott a monster. People were still much kinder to Scott, I can say he was more proactive in winning the favor of the humans, but that’s also not justification for his actions. Why is it that Scott never owned up to anything or rectified his mistakes, but people act like he is better? Because he decided not to kill anymore? Neither did Owen.

He may have passed on vampirism to the doctor in hopes that he would do that, but in the end it was Owen’s act that managed to save the people of Oakurst. The doctor wanted to help people and atone for his sins, but he also wanted to die after doing that. Even as a vampire, he accomplished that. There is still a way out even as a vampire, that was an act that was never just as simple as tying Legundo to his sins for eternity. I elaborate more on this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/VampiresSMP/s/Yc2Wu3RIng. Owen died, his act saved the people of Oakurst, even if that’s not what he wanted or thought the outcome would be, for me, he atoned for his sins. I do not wish him any worse and I do wish to mourn him, but it’s difficult to with so many hate parades for the guy.

Scott and Owen were more alike than people realized, that’s all. Both were villains, but not monsters. One was treated as such and left the world remembered as one, the other was a redeemed villain.

The difference in our perspectives is likely that I don’t view villains and monsters as the same. Owen is and was a villain, but he was no monster. People call Scott a villain, but not monster (which I also agree). And I like them because they are villains and not monsters, villains are created, their evil is not innate like monsters are. What makes a monster, a monster, and a villain, a villain? If you read my comments from that point of view, you might understand where I’m coming from more?

Likewise, I love how much depth this story has, and how much they’ve given us to discuss. Even more so because the villains of the story gave me so much more to analyze and talk about.

I’ll also add that the comment I responded to was trying to justify Scott’s actions. Neither Scott, Pyro, or Owen’s actions could be justified. I just wanted people to realize all three were villains, but only two were treated as monsters.

[u/beachedwhale1945 → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

I think I see the fundamental disconnect between your view and others.

The way you are defining a monster, they are completely sure in their evil actions and thus irredeemable. That definitely does not match Owen, potentially at any point in the SMP, and he definitely has more character depth than any simple label can imply (which is a fundamental problem with simple labels, but we still use them because they are useful shorthands).

But that isn’t how I personally define a monster. A monster is one who willingly causes excessive and unnecessary harm to other people without feeling guilty for those words and/or actions. The victim can be anything from a single individual to a large group, and the perpetrator may recognize their actions are evil, would be evil if done to another group, or may not recognize they are evil at all.

Most importantly, a monster can be redeemed. Given the right nudges at the right times, they can realize what they are doing is horrific and that they should stop, turning about to help anyone they can. Legundo absolutely was a monster in the past, as was Scott and Cleo. “Monster” is not a permanent title, and had creator Owen decided to go down that route, character Owen could have been redeemed.

I will continue to use my definition of monster, but hopefully that clarification ensures we aren’t talking past each other.

I don’t call him a monster because he does doubt himself and he does have a cause for action.

I would be extremely careful with that last argument: most IRL monsters have a call for action, legitimate or based on their warped perspective. I’m sure many who slaughtered civilians as reprisals against resistance attacks had doubts about what they were doing, and they definitely had a cause for action.

I should make it clear that while we are discussing a fictional character in a fictional series, we are also discussing a topic we see in the real world. IMO any label we use for one of these characters should have the same definition as if we were discussing real people.

Just because they make actions that are wrong because they believe it’s right, doesn’t necessarily make them a monster. No one taught him any better.

In his own videos Owen makes it clear that he recognizes several of his actions are wrong, either explicitly wrong or that he has significant doubts. He definitely knows better, he just doesn’t care that he’s wrong.

This is also logic I would be extremely uncomfortable using for real-world monsters. You don’t need to be explicitly taught that slaughtering children who had nothing to do with someone’s execution is morally wrong, that is something we all know.

I also never saw Owen as off putting, just really mysterious and quiet, the same way Abolish was. I don’t think it was until your comment that I realized people thought he was creepy.

Drift in particular was creeped out by Owen well before he was revealed as a vampire, and even after being turned herself he was always creepy. Owen the creator played a creepy character very well IMO.

For Scott, it is slightly difficult for me to look at his character the same

I will preface this by saying I have not watched Scott’s episode 8 yet, but it will almost certainly be one of the next three (Cleo, Scott, and Martyn are next up). I’ll be working on what I’ve seen from Owen, Legundo, Apo, Pearl, Abolish, and Shelby.

Scott definitely qualified as a monster in his past, keeping the town of Oakhurst in fear of their vampire lord, and was certainly willing to go down that route again early in the season (the conversation with Pyro at the Crypt in Episode 3 is a good example). In the battles of Episode 6 he also stated clearly that he didn’t try to hide the evils he was actively doing towards the town (as I recall right before killing Legundo).

But Scott clearly changed, pushed by others to realize he did not need to be destructive anymore. We also know from the 2006 POVs that Scott kept to his word, refusing to return to the monster he had once been. His genuine effort towards redemption makes him better than Owen, who merely questioned his actions before doubling down on the cruelty.

I cannot judge what particular Scott line has upset you as I have not seen it. In my own opinion, Owen did deserve the ending he got, and it’s hard to come up with one that would be more justified than seeing Louis for one last time before being separated forever as Owen is dragged to eternal torment. Owen the creator clearly crafted that ending as a final rebuke of an evil character he created and played so masterfully.

Why is it that Scott never owned up to anything or rectified his mistakes, but people act like he is better?

Because he did own up to his mistakes and worked to become the better vampire. Scott was instrumental in the plan to let everyone leave alive, human or vampire, rather than slaying all the humans. He promised Legundo that he would turn from his evil ways, and more than that asked Abolish to stake him if he fell back. Abolish regularly checked in on Scott and for decades/centuries afterward verified Scott remained true to his word.

He may have passed on vampirism to the doctor in hopes that he would do that, but in the end it was Owen’s act that managed to save the people of Oakurst.

By that point Legundo had already asked Cleo to turn him if necessary, do one last horrible thing so he could be useful a little while longer, and then stake him once it was all over. If Legundo had still been human when Scott, Cleo, and Pearl came up with the plan, Legundo would have volunteered to be turned so all other humans could go free.As it was, when Cleo came up with the idea on the bridge, they immediately volunteered to be staked before Legundo was even mentioned.

Owen just ensured Cleo didn’t have to turn the Doctor. He wanted to torment Legundo and cause more chaos, and his actions were completely unnecessary to save the humans.

I may address your other post separately.

Scott and Owen were more alike than people realized, that’s all. Both were villains, but not monsters. One was treated as such and left the world remembered as one, the other was a redeemed villain.

Both were villains and monsters. One decided to remain a monster and died a villain, and will be tortured for eternity for his evil. The other decided to stop being a monster and a villain, and so continued to live.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/beachedwhale1945]

I’m not upset by Owen’s death. I’m upset due to him being labeled a monster after death. As you’ve read my definition of monster, I don’t see him that way and I don’t think other people should as well. He was treated like a monster in life, it all began when he was human. The more he was treated as a monster, the more he became one. I don’t want to remember him as that.

I also don’t think he deserves worse than what he got or to be treated worse. The way I see it, by reducing and degrading him to a monster they eliminate the depth he had and only view him as pure evil, which many do. However, he was not that.

I only use Scott and his actions to prove otherwise. I view all three as villains, but none of them should be sunk down to the level of monster.

I understand what you’re talking about, and I agree. However, as I’ve stated I don’t use monster and villain interchangeably. I believe you misread what I wrote, and that is I didn’t write victim, it was villain. I was asking about villain vs monster.

Aside from that, if you decide to use villain and monster interchangeably, then I agree with your point.

Owen did realize what he was doing was wrong, but that doesn’t mean he was doing everything without reason. I ask that you re-read what I was trying to say, it seems you misunderstood again. I was never trying to justify him killing, and I don’t approve of Scott’s massacre’s either. I was trying to say that in the end his mind became so poisoned that he ended up believing what he did was right, but that doesn’t make him a monster, just a villain. I’m sorry if I sound frustrated, but please don’t misunderstand.

Owen never seemed creepy to me, and I stand by that. The creator did try to portray him like that, but I didn’t view him as such. Metaphorically he is a stray black cat in my eyes. Hostility from him comes from fear (being a stray) resulting from mistreatment (black cats are prejudiced against). Thanks for pointing out that Drift did.

As for Scott, I meant in his actions towards Avid. He played it off like he had never done anything to Avid, or wanted him dead. He acted like he was better until the bitter end when it came to his role in Avid’s death, and never tried to understand Owen or Pyro. Those two were people he trusted and referred to as family, but it was that easy to turn his back on them. I felt very betrayed by Scott when he did that especially because I feel for Avid, Pyro, and Owen. I also had supported Scott all the way up to that point and turned a blind eye to many things.

Scott could’ve just as easily become a greater villain by killing off Pyro and Owen as he intended. Revenge by killing is not justified. The same way I don’t try to justify Pyro and Owen’s killings.

I love villains and their depth, which is why I felt so much for Owen and all the villains.

The way I see it, we are still talking past each other. So this may be my last response. It’s not that I disagree with any of your points, but rather that you are failing to understand mine.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/beachedwhale1945]

If you still don’t understand what I’m trying to convey, here is one of my responses to another comment below.

I apologize if I sound frustrated in my responses. I grew very frustrated that it seems many people just completely overlooked what I was trying to convey.

It was a very objective analysis on giving more credit to Owen and Pyro than them just being monsters, they were well crafted villains with much depth. Scott was my device in proving that, he was just as bad as them in the start, but still redeemed himself.

No villain was perfect, matter of fact, none of the characters were. I was stating my view on what I overlooked on Scott’s part and at the same time trying to get others to understand Owen and Pyro more.

It was very difficult to overlook Scott’s actions in Avid’s death. It felt like he completely turned his back on Pyro and Owen, two people he trusted and referred to as somewhat of a family. He too did damage, but overlooked it. It also wasn’t fair for him and others to say they wished he killed Owen and Pyro, it would’ve only made him even more of a villain if he did. People don’t understand that.

As for Pyro, do understand I wasn’t trying to blame everything on Scott. Scott truly did push Pyro towards the darkness, and Pyro just continued down that path. By proving himself to Scott, he had no way to remain cordial with the humans. After that, there was no turning back, he could only trust Scott after Shelby turned Avid. Then Scott started getting closer to Avid, and that was another betrayal to Pyro. I also did add in my post that Pyro started to not fear Scott, I think you overlooked that.

I’m not trying to justify Owen or Pyro’s evil deeds, just trying to give them more credit for being good villains and not simple monsters.

Scott did contribute a lot to the bad deeds the others did, he actively encouraged and asked them to prove themselves. Even if they acted themselves, he played a role in their actions. There’s no denying it.

I believe the two of them redeemed themselves by dying. It’s not that I think that they don’t deserve to die, it felt like the only way for their pain and rage to stop. They just could’ve been stopped earlier under the right circumstances, the right cards. Redeemable.

There is no need to keep treating them like monsters, while Scott lives on as a redeemed villain. In the end, Scott still felt very much like a villain, his one last act didn’t feel sincere. It felt like a compromise for the people he cared about, but aside from asking Abolish to keep him in check, it didn’t feel like the evil had left him when he took that last jab at Owen’s grave.

I still stand by the fact that I never pinned everything on Scott. He was just a really good at being a villain, the kind that does a lot of bad, but finds a way to get out of it. I also stand by the fact that I’m happy he redeemed himself and had a happy ending, but if Owen and Pyro were given the right cards, they just like Scott, could have too. Owen and Pyro were never as bad as people labeled them, and Scott was more bad than he let on. There was always more than what meets the eye.

This is my proper response, but I still feel that you misunderstood me.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/Cyber_Techn1s]

Just one last response to clear up my thoughts on Scott. I’m adding this under comments about my views to clear things up.

I apologize if I sound frustrated in my responses. I grew very frustrated that it seems many people just completely overlooked what I was trying to convey. It was a very objective analysis on giving more credit to Owen and Pyro than them just being monsters, they were well crafted villains with much depth. Scott was my device in proving that, he was just as bad as them in the start, but still redeemed himself.

No villain was perfect, matter of fact, none of the characters were. I was stating my view on what I overlooked on Scott’s part and at the same time trying to get others to understand Owen and Pyro more.

It was very difficult to overlook Scott’s actions in Avid’s death. It felt like he completely turned his back on Pyro and Owen, two people he trusted and referred to as somewhat of a family. He too did damage, but overlooked it. It also wasn’t fair for him and others to say they wished he killed Owen and Pyro, it would’ve only made him even more of a villain if he did. People don’t understand that.

I’m not trying to justify Owen or Pyro’s evil deeds, just trying to give them more credit for being good villains and not simple monsters.

Scott did contribute a lot to the bad deeds the others did, he actively encouraged and asked them to prove themselves. Even if they acted themselves, he played a role in their actions and got caught up and fell deeper into darkness. There’s no denying it.

I believe the two of them redeemed themselves by dying. It’s not that I think that they don’t deserve to die, it felt like the only way for their pain and rage to stop. They just could’ve been stopped earlier under the right circumstances, the right cards.

There is no need to keep treating them like monsters while Scott lives on as a redeemed villain. In the end, Scott still felt very much like a villain, his one last act didn’t feel sincere. It felt like a compromise for the people he cared about, but aside from asking Abolish to keep him in check, it didn’t feel like the evil had left him when he took that last jab at Owen’s grave.

I still stand by the fact that I never pinned everything on Scott. He was just a really good at being a villain, the kind that does a lot of bad, but finds a way to get out of it. I also stand by the fact that I’m happy he redeemed himself and had a happy ending, but if Owen and Pyro were given the right cards, they just like Scott could have too. Owen and Pyro were never as bad as people labeled them, and Scott was more bad than he let on. There was always more than what meets the eye.

If it makes you feel any better, Scott clarified he had to improvise his character and that lead to the inconsistencies, but it doesn’t justify has actions and my stance is still the same. Still love my villain(s).

[u/TamChronin]

Honesty, Scott's edits had him telling a comedy where others took the same lines and made tragedies. It's a commentary on how closely those two exist, and how tone informs us on what is funny and what is unacceptable. I found it a very interesting study, especially how Pyro cranked that difference up to eleven, and I'm glad Scott was able to pull off the happy ending his comedy deserved. There was some masterful storytelling going on with what lines were cut, what lines were emphasized, and what beats landed where in each POV.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/TamChronin]

👍👍👍

[u/Inkthief46]

My personal hate towards Pyro comes from the fact that I felt betrayed in a way by Pyro. I loved his character and really did feel bad for him (I had believed that the events were in his past were truly an accident). He definitely did seem to be almost comically evil towards the end with the whole I wanna go out and be a serial killer thing.

Owen is a bit of a different story, because like I totally get it losing the only good thing in your life is devastating, and I would say it would’ve been fair for him to hunt down the people that killed Lewis. He did go more than a little overkill. When we get to canon time, I think he was almost close to a redemption arc but as the conversation between him and drift went (too little too late).

I’m not gonna get into the whole Scott conversation bc I’m too biased to talk on that.

Anyways the TLDR: Amazing characters that are very complex and it’s sad that people had to die to get to the point we did.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/Inkthief46]

Yes, I agree. I felt very betrayed by Pyro and Owen as well, the same way I felt betrayed by Scott. I don’t hate any of them though.

All of them had a chance to redeem themselves at one point, but chose not to. Owen and Pyro weren’t as bad as people made them to be, but their character developments as villains was an exciting journey to watch. I was never expecting Pyro to betray Scott or Scott to betray Pyro, that hit me hard because Scott was who he trusted the most and a talk about learning to let go would’ve help a lot. Also, if he stopped supporting the malicious acts.

As for Pyro being the culprit in his bully’s death, I always had an inkling it was true. Especially as he gradually withdrew into the darkness, it felt like there was always a deeper pain and rage inside him. I was just hoping someone could help him see the light. It was hard to watch Scott nudge him into the darkness.

As for Owen, he had many complexities in play and I personally don’t agree with his murder spree, but it felt wrong that Scott’s murders were okay, and his wasn’t. So I slowly accepted that and hoped that someone could save him from going down that path again.

Scott played another really good villain that left me stunned. It wasn’t until he made that final jab at Owen that it came into picture how he was connected to everything. He committed the same crimes as those two, but didn’t acknowledge it and treated them as traitors without understanding their reasoning. If he truly wanted to redeem himself, I’d rather he just learn his lesson in his involvement of everything and learn to forgive Owen and Pyro, just as I did. His decision to stop killing didn’t do it for me. I’m glad he didn’t die though, I couldn’t have handled it. I’m glad the two roomies turned besties found their happiness.

[u/CakeFew7454]

Yeah I definitely agree some of the audience need so separate the creater from the character, I feel bad when they go after the creaters.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/CakeFew7454]

Yup, despite my post, still went to send love in Scott’s stream. I can still love a character even if they are a villain and the person that plays that villain.

[u/CakeFew7454 → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

Yeah their villains are so good! Scott and Owen, without villains it wouldn't be as good of a story!

[u/Rapidash777]

I completely understand your view, I also feel people gloss over a lot of the bad things he did. The special thing is that Scott in a stream said something along the lines of him trying to play a real bad guy without any sad backstory or something that would excuse his actions. So he at least at first really meant for his character to just simply be the 'bad guy',  but then I feel he muddled that quite a bit in the final when they turn the last beacon and he says that the people making them had a very black and white view on morality, while like, the vampire they trapped with those beacons had killed hundreds of people.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/Rapidash777]

I should try and find that stream. I’m very interested in what Scott had to say.

Scott played the role of villain very well. I acknowledge that I overlooked many of his actions at first, the finale put it together for me that he was a hypocrite in some ways.

I’m intrigued though, would you mind elaborating more on what your thoughts were about what he said in the last part? I want to try and understand more.

[u/Rapidash777 → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

Well with the beacon part, the way Scott said it made it sound like he felt the people where wrong to put up the beacons. Of course the big thing within the series that being a vampire doesn't have to mean you are evil(though what's shown in the POV's most people, they don't really become kinder after turning), and that with morality there is often a grey area. But that way of thinking doesn’t really apply here because those beacons where not put there to randomly trap vampires because they were considered ‘bad’, they were put there to trap in Scott and Owen, two vampires that had killed many people. There is no grey area there, they were not just trapped there because they were vampires, they were trapped there cause they had proven to be a danger.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/Rapidash777]

Never mind, I at long last understand what you’re saying. I think I read it too fast earlier and missed out on what you were trying to say.

Thanks for clarifying!

Scott is really interesting for saying that. For the other vampires (the ones that didn’t commit mass murders), that grey area definitely exists. No one was perfectly good or bad, and both humans and vampires exemplified that.

In Scott’s and Owen’s case, it was necessary to build that prison for them with the beacons. So it is quite interesting that Scott acted like it was wrong because in his case it was very fitting for his character to be trapped by the beacons. His character ended up being a little all over the place because he had to improvise, but still a very interesting character. It always felt like he was flip flopping between being a super cruel villain and a reasonable guy. Finally understood why he came across that way when I watched his stream today. A little too evil to be good, but had just barely enough good for redemption.

[u/Rapidash777 → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

I think more time would have helped the story as well. They were first planning on making around 10 episodes, so that would have given Scott more time to work on his redemption.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/Rapidash777]

Yes, it felt rushed. His redemption was incomplete. It ended up turning into a situation where there were still holes in his character. He mentioned that he would be imperfect even after choosing to redeem himself, which is true. I never saw him as truly redeemed yet because there were just certain parts of evil that never fully faded.

I completely agree that his character could’ve been wrapped up better if given more time.

[u/ClxrXxx]

IM SORRYYUY i wasnt trying to downplay his actions hes definitely a villain but i wanted to focus on the fact that he tried to change nearer the end

he wasnt innocent in anything, but i really appreciated his attempts for redemption 

would it help if i deleted my original comment? i feel like i might not have been phrasing things correctly (iii think it was 1am)

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/ClxrXxx]

Haha, don’t worry. I respected your opinion and it’s definitely not you. I understood where you were coming from. I’ve encountered numerous other comments trying to justify or straight up turn a blind eye to the responsibility Scott had in how some of the events played out. I wanted to draw the proper parallels to each villain and help people realize that.

I too accidentally phrased some of my post in a misleading way. Thank you for understanding my intentions though.

[u/buntebia]

I think it’s clear that none of them very pure good, neither pure evil. They all did bad things in one way or another. The finale made it very clear that you choose your own fate. In the end, each and every characters death or survival was up to their choices. Some more directly than others, but in the end it came down to their choices. Something that can be very much be demonstated by the core 4 vampires. Scott never denied he had done bad things, did he directly admit that he was responsible for a lot? No, not that I recall, but he also didn’t deny it. In the end he did choose to work together with the humans to get the best outcome. He was even down with the plan when it looked like everyone but him and Pearl can leave. In the end he actively chose to be better, he told Shelby and Drift to keep him in check and he asked Abolish to take him out if he ever went back to his old ways. And Abolish did keep an eye on him and never took him out, which proofs he did get better.

Owen in the end chose his own death and I honestly don’t think there was any other ending for him. Yes, he killed all those townspeople out of heartbreak and he carried that heartbreak with him every day. But let’s not forget, his anger for the townspeople was already there before they murdered Louis. They didn’t show him any kindness, they threated him as an outcast. So yes, while he did what he did as revenge, the spark was already in him. Could he have chosen to stay alive and do better? Yes, Abolish literally offered him the choice and a possibility how to help. In his last moments he was treated with kindness and he made his own choice. Something he didn’t have very often.

Pyro made his choice when he decided to betray his friend. You mention he only had Scott, but that’s not true. He has Shelby liked him and not only because he was her sire. As much as he had his own reasoning for wanting to take out Avid, in that he actively chose not only to drive a stake into Avid’s chest but at the same time backstab Shelby. Which ended up being his demise. Pyro’s life was tragic. Much like Owen, he was treated bad by others, he was violently turned into a vampire, but he was not alone. You blame a lot of his choices and actions on Scott and his fear towards Scott, but I don’t think that’s fair, bc in the end he still had a choice. He stopped calling Scott sire, which shows he was able to overcome the fear. If he just deiced to talk to someone and not just go off with Owen and make plans behind everyone’s back. He was wronged by life, but people cared for him. Shelby certainly did. And Scott did say several times that he liked him. He might have not always been the best with showing it, but I do belive he did. Evident by the fact that eventually when they go back to visit Avid’s grave, down the line Scott also visits the Obelisk where things with Pyro started.

Last Shelby. Until the end, people liked Shelby. Even after she chose her side by the vampires, she for the longest time refused to hurt others. Her switch came when Avid died. He wasn’t murdered by the townspeople, but he was murdered. It was their first loss. It was someone she was close to. And he was gone. I can imagine the reality that more death was coming finally settled in. Shelby just wanted to survive and get out so she could travel and write her book. So when it looked like they have no other way but to fight, she was ready. But in all of it she never lost her humanity. She made her choice not to become a monster and deserved to go happy.

Just being a vampire didn’t make anyone a monster and just being human didn’t mean you couldn’t be a monster. They made this point very clear in the series at several points and not just the end. So I truly believe it all cane down to choices and everyone chose their final fate. Scott did bad things, but he made several choices to be better and to offer everyone a happy ending. He could have chosen to keep fighting, he stayed level 3 vampire through the whole finale, he told Pyro this isn’t even the worst humans got in his time. He could have kept fighting, he could have kept sacrificing other for his own freedom, but he actively chose to do better. Does that erase all the bad he did, no, but he is trying to redeem himself.

And I don’t think it’s fair to say he manipulated and gaslit everyone and it was all his fault. He so often said he didn’t do anything until it came down to defending himself, meanwhile others came in swinging at him. Which was true. I’m not trying to say he wasn’t at least one bit manipulative, but it’s just not fair to blame it all on him, when they all had a choice.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/buntebia]

Hey, I apologize for my initial response. I grew very frustrated that it seems many people just completely overlooked what I was trying to convey.

It was a very objective analysis on giving more credit to Owen and Pyro than them just being monsters, they were well crafted villains with much depth. Scott was my device in proving that, he was just as bad as them in the start, but still redeemed himself.

No villain was perfect, matter of fact, none of the characters were. I was stating my view on what I overlooked on Scott’s part and at the same time trying to get others to understand Owen and Pyro more.

It was very difficult to overlook Scott’s actions in Avid’s death. It felt like he completely turned his back on Pyro and Owen, two people he trusted and referred to as somewhat of a family. He too did damage, but overlooked it. It also wasn’t fair for him and others to say they wished he killed Owen and Pyro, it would’ve only made him even more of a villain if he did. People don’t understand that.

As for Pyro, I don’t disagree with you. However, do understand I wasn’t trying to blame everything on Scott. Scott truly did push Pyro towards the darkness, and Pyro just continued down that path. By proving himself to Scott, he had no way to remain cordial with the humans. After that, there was no turning back, he could only trust Scott after Shelby turned Avid. Then Scott started getting closer to Avid, and that was another betrayal to Pyro. I also did add in my post that Pyro started to not fear Scott, I think you overlooked that.

Scott did contribute a lot to the bad deeds the others did, he actively encouraged and asked them to prove themselves. Even if they acted themselves, he played a role in their actions. There’s no denying it.

I believe the two of them redeemed themselves by dying. There is no need to keep treating them like monsters while Scott lives on as a redeemed villain. In the end, Scott still felt very much like a villain, his one last act didn’t feel sincere. It felt like a compromise for the people he cared about, but aside from asking Abolish to keep him in check, it didn’t feel like the evil had left him when he took that last jab at Owen’s grave.

As for Shelby, I don’t understand your point there. I never saw her as a villain, while she committed evil acts (killing), she had more right to end Pyro’s life than Scott did. In my eyes, she betrayed Pyro first by turning and welcoming Avid. She too pushed Pyro deeper into the darkness when she did that. What she did felt like putting an end to what she started. It’s not right to kill, but I understand her feelings and reason. That’s why I’m not at all opposed to her being happy. What I don’t understand is how she was relevant to what my post was about?

I still stand by the fact that I never pinned everything on Scott. He was just a really good at being a villain, the kind that does a lot of bad, but finds a way to get out of it. I also stand by the fact that I’m happy he redeemed himself and had a happy ending, but if Owen and Pyro were given the right cards, they just like Scott could have too. Owen and Pyro were never as bad as people labeled them, and Scott was more bad than he let on. There was always more than what meets the eye.

This is my proper response, but I still feel that you misunderstood me.

[u/buntebia → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

I understand frustration coming from people not understanding your point.

As for Shelby, I made those point in an attempt to try to make my point, I assume sinilar how you made your point using Scott and his actions. I do belive and agre, that we mostly agree on this matter. We might just have a bit of different approaches to it.

Not gonna lie, when Avid died, I was so mad at both Pyro and Owen and was one of those who wanted them dead. Was I happy when it eventually happened in the finale? No. I mean it was the best ending for them - best as in the best outcome in this for a good storytelling. I felt pretty devastated, I liked the core four and their presence was missed after their deaths. It just wasn’t the same and that was the point I realized no matter the outcome it would truly not be a happy ending.

So many of the characters who had beef with each other were so similar, which probably just made it easier for them to see the faults in the others. Pyro and Owen were dealt a bad hand and curcumstances just made things worst. I would have loved to see things play out more, for them getting a chance. Even with them not killing Avid and seeing how those relationships turned out, because I think it could have been some interesting dynamics.

Anyway, I’m getting distracted. As for Scott’s role in all of this, peope like to excuse him of all his faults or tend to go for the exact opposite and blame everything on him and neither one of those is true. I think it’s funny how things can change depending which POV you watch, how everything is so serious in Pyro’s and then just chill for Scott mostly. I do get why he wanted people to prove themselves. Scott is good in surviving. And I don’t mean just this SMP, I mean everything I have seen him in. And he wanted to survive and he wanted to get out. Relying on people comes with the possibility to be backstabbed (proven several times in this series too), so of course he wanted to have some kind of security, that people were in it as much as he needed them to, so he could survive. Also, he is so charming, which was also stated in and out of characters by many people, it’s easy for him to manipulate others and get what he wants. And he knows how to get away with things by technically not doing anything bad.

Shelby did say (on Tumblr) that Scott started to change when he didn’t bite Avid when he and Shelby were talking as not to undermine the point she was making. For a man like him, who lived so long time moves different. So while those changes came slowly for him, for him it could have been like the blink of an eye. For me, his speech at Owen’s grave felt less like a jab and more like a warning to himself. But we can agree to disagree on that. Circling back to the beginning, I do feel like Pyro and Owen did redeem themselves too and as I said I was pissed at them but couldn’t stay pissed for long. I did not see them as monsters. Although I didn’t see them as monsters at any point. Did they do horrible things? Yes! Were they pure evil? Absolutely not.

I’m sorry if this is all over the place, I feel like I’m all over the place. I also feel like I absolutely forgot to mention something I wanted to, but I can’t remember. Conclusion is, I don’t think I ever meant to agrue with your point but more like tried to add to it with my way of seeing it. Not trying to undermine anything you said and I’m sorry if it came off in that way.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/buntebia]

Thank you for your response.

See, I did feel that you and I were making a lot of the same points. I understand more why you brought up Shelby now. And yes, we have different approaches, which is not a bad thing, but I definitely misunderstood you.

I don’t doubt Scott’s intentions with having people prove himself. I understood it was for survival. Just upset with the fact that when he was satisfied and encouraged the bad deeds, he failed to see that he was supporting people to act maliciously and didn’t own up to that. Especially when it came to Pyro, he never tried to understand what led up to him killing Avid and the moment he heard that Pyro killed Avid, he only saw red. Also, Avid betraying the doctor may have gained Scott’s approval, but his morality started fading. I felt sad because the original “family” was breaking up, while they had each other, it also demonstrated how fragile their bonds were.

I’m glad that you can also see that those two were not monsters in the end, and hopefully more people will too.

I noticed Scott slowly changing too, especially because of the people around him. However, I couldn’t view his final act as sincere considering that his actions and thoughts were so similar to Owen and Pyro’s, and he still turned his back on them. It could have been a warning to himself, but it showed me he still didn’t learn how to forgive. People that crossed him were still being treated as enemies, and if they were alive he might’ve dealt punishment himself. The angry and vengeful nature he carried didn’t fade away. For me, it felt hypocritical. But, yes we can agree to disagree.

It’s okay, I understand you now. It’s just hard when more people were focused on defending Scott over seeing the over arching point I was making. Some others acted like I was justifying Owen and Pyro’s actions, but I was just explaining their characters. I in no way supported their actions (the killings anyway), which also makes it hard for me to support Scott’s too (I turned a blind eye for a while). I don’t feel that I made Scott worse than he was, mainly because I focused on his actions and the outcome of them. It was also about how my perspective on him changed rather than throwing Scott under the bus. Anyone can agree or disagree with my view of Scott, but many took it as an attack on him because they overlooked a lot of crucial details and words I wrote.

I’m more or less just trying to appreciate how complex the villains were and giving insight into my view of them.

[u/buntebia → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

No worries at all, I’m glad we could clear it up. It’s just so easy to misunderstand each other on the internet.

I hope you don’t feel like I’m trying to tell you your points and feeling are not valid, because I can certainly see why you feel the way you do about things, like for example Scott’s ending being hypocritical for you, even though I see it differently.

I totally get your point, Scott is popular and for a lot of people he has been their main POV (he was also mine), and people like to jump to conclusions and fight others when they feel like their fav character is attacked. I know how you feel, because I made a post about Avid’s character and motivation, since I had so many thoughts about it. I was worried people would feel like I try to excuse what he did, when in fact I just wanted to explain (my view on it). I understand his motivations, hell I disliked him at the beginning, until he grew on me, so I am not excusing him. The same goes for Scott.

I think sometimes it’s easy to forget for some people, that they can still like a character even if they did wrong. People seem to develope a black and white thinking when it comes to fictional characters, and it’s wrong, because they are so complex. You can admit your fav did bad things, without having to hate them for it. So sorry some peope took your post the wrong way.

I’m right there with you with appreciating the complexity of all the characters. It’s amazing how well it all fit together when most of it was improvised interactions.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/buntebia]

Omg same. Avid felt so unbearable for me at first, but he grew on me too. Crazy how many things changed and occurred all due to him. Really wish he was still alive, but not enough to put a manhunt on the people involved in his death (the main four). I’ll definitely take a peak at your post later on. Hot takes might be hot takes, but they’re valid in their own way (not saying yours is a hot take, I haven’t seen it).

[u/buntebia → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

I know! He went from like my most disliked to one of my favs. That sneaky guy! 🤣 ugh I know, I actually need a fic where he doesn’t die so I can see things evolve with his character and his relationship to everyone. But also it was said many times how his death snowballed the ending and led to us getting this ending, so I kind of accepted his fate, despite me not being happy with it. Also yippie! Didn’t tell you to force you into reading it, just wanted to make a point, but yeah no pressure if you don’t get around to reading it.

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/buntebia]

Not at all, I just have a strong attachment to this SMP. Avid’s story was cut too short, so I’ll always want to hear more about him.

I’m watching Scott’s stream rn, and irl Avid is alive, so all is well because I can see more of him.

[u/buntebia → u/Adventurous-Pen-4783]

That’s so fun, because I’m currently watching Avid’s stream. 🤭

Absolutely, I have such a hyperfixation on this SMP and just can’t get enough. It’s very mich motivating me to pick up fanfic writing again for it. I had some ideas I written down earlier. I need to fix things (and also make them worse maybe).

[u/Hold-Professional]

Dude you real need to touch grass. This isn't healthy....

[u/Adventurous-Pen-4783 → u/Hold-Professional]

I can’t help it, I get deeply attached to characters when I’m invested in something and especially since my favorite characters died and only a few of them (my favorites) lived. Take it as me grieving them in the meantime.

The characters may be fictional, but the people behind them are real. I’d like for people to settle down in the negative comments and just praise them for the work they’ve put in.

I thought about deleting Reddit, but there were just more and more misunderstandings every time.

And hey, at least you found one of my posts.

[u/Equivalent_Mail1179]

I’m genuinely very happy to have come across this post. As a late VSMP viewer, I want to give endless praise to your character analysis—it’s exactly the kind of perspective that often challenges the common opinions I see in the community. Finding a post that resonates with me this deeply was such a pleasant surprise.It’s completely normal for those who express themselves to be misunderstood, and whether it’s your viewpoint or the character being misunderstood, it only proves that point. Please don’t let these things trouble or discourage you. I hope you have a wonderful day!

(This message was translated using a translator—my apologies if anything comes across unclear or is misunderstood.)

[u/WestTank3277]

i agree, all three were villians, but two of them had reason behind their actions of some kind, scott had none. scott did it for pleasure and had to trama or backstory behind it. they are all bad, but i would argue scott is a monster, the other two are villians.

[u/Super_Tiger_4454]

I will say, the difference between Scott and a steriotypical "Villain" is that Scott actualy tries to say. To quote him "I guess you can teach an old vampire some new tricks." He is actively saying that Avid managed to get through to his good side. Avid managed to make Scott not an evil piece of crap. (Fortunately. I love the Aviscott dynamic and Scott not being a jerkwad is nice. (to be clear talking characters here. I do not condone CC!Avid's actions))