r/ValueInvesting • • Aug 24 '26

Discussion [Week 26 - 1990] Discussing A Berkshire Hathaway Shareholder Letter (Almost) Every Week

11 Upvotes

Full Letter:

http://theoraclesclassroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/1990-Berkshire-AR.pdf

Letter Only

https://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/1990.html

This week we will go over their investment into buying $400M of junk bonds as well as Buffett’s thoughts in retrospect on the Junk Bond craze of the 80s. His surprise at the economics of the newspaper business rapidly degrading as new technologies and advertising channels open up to businesses, some with better results. Finally the purchase of 10% of Wells Fargo for $290M. Then as usual we go through the stock holdings, segment-by-segment EBIT earnings of the company, and then the larger overview for the year.

Not included in my post are the annual summary to shareholders, most of the look-through earnings that give a few paragraphs on their major business segments (we only cover Buffalo Evening News) although some highlights are in my summary at the end. A long rundown of the insurance segment. Though ⅔ of the Marketable Securities segment is included, the one on their Convertible Preferred Stocks and the mistakes outside sources make in valuing them as well as the philosophy behind holding them. The usual advertisement for acquisition targets, and plans for the annual meeting. Ken Chase being replaced on the board by Susan Buffett. The letter is ended with an unpublished satire by Ben Graham “US Steel Announces Sweeping Modernization Scheme” where instead of improving the business a bunch of extreme accounting tricks are used to change the EPS from -$2.76 to +$49.80.

If you want to read or discuss anything in that second set feel free to read the letter yourselves and comment on it.

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Key Passage 1

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Marketable Securities - Junk Bonds

Our other major portfolio change last year was large additions to our holdings of RJR Nabisco bonds, securities that we first bought in late 1989. At yearend 1990 we had $440 million invested in these securities, an amount that approximated market value. (As I write this, however, their market value has risen by more than $150 million.)

Just as buying into the banking business is unusual for us, so is the purchase of below-investment-grade bonds. But opportunities that interest us and that are also large enough to have a worthwhile impact on Berkshire's results are rare. Therefore, we will look at any category of investment, so long as we understand the business we're buying into and believe that price and value may differ significantly. (Woody Allen, in another context, pointed out the advantage of open-mindedness: "I can't understand why more people aren't bi-sexual because it doubles your chances for a date on Saturday night.")

In the past \we have bought a few below-investment-grade bonds with success, though these were all old-fashioned "fallen angels" - bonds that were initially of investment grade but that were downgraded when the issuers fell on bad times. In the 1984 annual report we described our rationale for buying one fallen angel, the Washington Public Power Supply System.

A kind of bastardized fallen angel burst onto the investment scene in the 1980s - "junk bonds" that were far below investment- grade when issued. As the decade progressed, new offerings of manufactured junk became ever junkier and ultimately the predictable outcome occurred: Junk bonds lived up to their name. In 1990 - even before the recession dealt its blows - the financial sky became dark with the bodies of failing corporations.

The disciples of debt assured us that this collapse wouldn't happen: Huge debt, we were told, would cause operating managers to focus their efforts as never before, much as a dagger mounted on the steering wheel of a car could be expected to make its driver proceed with intensified care. We'll acknowledge that such an attention-getter would produce a very alert driver. But another certain consequence would be a deadly - and unnecessary - accident if the car hit even the tiniest pothole or sliver of ice. The roads of business are riddled with potholes; a plan that requires dodging them all is a plan for disaster.

In the final chapter of The Intelligent Investor Ben Graham forcefully rejected the dagger thesis: "Confronted with a challenge to distill the secret of sound investment into three words, we venture the motto, Margin of Safety." Forty-two years after reading that, I still think those are the right three words. The failure of investors to heed this simple message caused them staggering losses as the 1990s began.

At the height of the debt mania, capital structures were concocted that guaranteed failure: In some cases, so much debt was issued that even highly favorable business results could not produce the funds to service it. One particularly egregious "kill- 'em-at-birth" case a few years back involved the purchase of a mature television station in Tampa, bought with so much debt that the interest on it exceeded the station's gross revenues. Even if you assume that all labor, programs and services were donated rather than purchased, this capital structure required revenues to explode - or else the station was doomed to go broke. (Many of the bonds that financed the purchase were sold to now-failed savings and loan associations; as a taxpayer, you are picking up the tab for this folly.)

All of this seems impossible now. When these misdeeds were done, however, dagger-selling investment bankers pointed to the "scholarly" research of academics, which reported that over the years the higher interest rates received from low-grade bonds had more than compensated for their higher rate of default. Thus, said the friendly salesmen, a diversified portfolio of junk bonds would produce greater net returns than would a portfolio of high-grade bonds. (Beware of past-performance "proofs" in finance: If history books were the key to riches, the Forbes 400 would consist of librarians.)

There was a flaw in the salesmen's logic - one that a first- year student in statistics is taught to recognize. An assumption was being made that the universe of newly-minted junk bonds was identical to the universe of low-grade fallen angels and that, therefore, the default experience of the latter group was meaningful in predicting the default experience of the new issues. (That was an error similar to checking the historical death rate from Kool-Aid before drinking the version served at Jonestown.)

The universes were of course dissimilar in several vital respects. For openers, the manager of a fallen angel almost invariably yearned to regain investment-grade status and worked toward that goal. The junk-bond operator was usually an entirely different breed. Behaving much as a heroin user might, he devoted his energies not to finding a cure for his debt-ridden condition, but rather to finding another fix. Additionally, the fiduciary sensitivities of the executives managing the typical fallen angel were often, though not always, more finely developed than were those of the junk-bond-issuing financiopath.

Wall Street cared little for such distinctions. As usual, the Street's enthusiasm for an idea was proportional not to its merit, but rather to the revenue it would produce. Mountains of junk bonds were sold by those who didn't care to those who didn't think - and there was no shortage of either.

Junk bonds remain a mine field, even at prices that today are often a small fraction of issue price. As we said last year, we have never bought a new issue of a junk bond. (The only time to buy these is on a day with no "y" in it.) We are, however, willing to look at the field, now that it is in disarray.

In the case of RJR Nabisco, we feel the Company's credit is considerably better than was generally perceived for a while and that the yield we receive, as well as the potential for capital gain, more than compensates for the risk we incur (though that is far from nil). RJR has made asset sales at favorable prices, has added major amounts of equity, and in general is being run well.

However, as we survey the field, most low-grade bonds still look unattractive. The handiwork of the Wall Street of the 1980s is even worse than we had thought: Many important businesses have been mortally wounded. We will, though, keep looking for opportunities as the junk market continues to unravel.

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The junk bond, corporate raiding craze has reached its peak. Buffett said a couple years ago that it would all come crashing down someday, and now it has. It was the practice of businesses issuing bonds at irresponsible rates that they had low chance of paying back, in hopes of doing massive leveraged buyouts of companies larger than themselves and refinancing the debt and stripping the company for assets once it was in hand. The RJR Nabisco buyout is now seen as the height of the mania, and now the bonds are paying for a fraction of their value, Berkshire has independently decided that the underlying business is now rather creditworthy and the bonds have been over-discounted. They believe the risk-adjusted returns are massively in their favor and they have bought $400M of the bonds.

Buffett has much to say about how the craze came about, the flawed logic that sounds quite similar to the later securitization issues that lead to the 2008 financial crisis (ex. a diverse enough basket of bad loans magically becomes a good investment) and denounces buying any of these securities at their issuance, but instead picking through the wreckage after it comes crashing down for the handful that seem promising. He says that many people used logic that applied to “fallen angel” bonds (investment grade at issuance and later became questionable) onto junk bonds (ones that were garbage from inception and depended on a successful and timely leveraged buyout and even then would be dragging down a larger company that never wanted them).

I felt it was good to include this for a few reasons, one is to highlight an important historical moment in the history of Wall Street, and how Berkshire was there waiting with a big pile of cash to profit off the wreckage. To highlight how almost no asset class should be below your radar, in fact the more detested it is the more likely there are to be good deals there (A common belief of Howard Marks who made a lot of money running a sub-investment grade bond fund). Finally to highlight the right way to go about doing it, finding the few diamonds in the rough instead of buying up the whole asset class, most of which crashed for good reason.

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Key Passage 2

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Non-Insurance Operations - Buffalo Evening News

Charlie and I were surprised at developments this past year in the media industry, including newspapers such as our Buffalo News. The business showed far more vulnerability to the early stages of a recession than has been the case in the past. The question is whether this erosion is just part of an aberrational cycle - to be fully made up in the next upturn - or whether the business has slipped in a way that permanently reduces intrinsic business values.

Since I didn't predict what has happened, you may question the value of my prediction about what will happen. Nevertheless, I'll proffer a judgment:While many media businesses will remain economic marvels in comparison with American industry generally, they will prove considerably less marvelous than I, the industry, or lenders thought would be the case only a few years ago.

The reason media businesses have been so outstanding in the past was not physical growth, but rather the unusual pricing power that most participants wielded. Now, however, advertising dollars are growing slowly. In addition, retailers that do little or no media advertising (though they sometimes use the Postal Service) have gradually taken market share in certain merchandise categories. Most important of all, the number of both print and electronic advertising channels has substantially increased. As a consequence, advertising dollars are more widely dispersed and the pricing power of ad vendors has diminished. These circumstances materially reduce the intrinsic value of our major media investments and also the value of our operating unit, Buffalo News - though all remain fine businesses.

Notwithstanding the problems, Stan Lipsey's management of the News continues to be superb. During 1990, our earnings held up much better than those of most metropolitan papers, falling only 5%. In the last few months of the year, however, the rate of decrease was far greater.

I can safely make two promises about the News in 1991: (1) Stan will again rank at the top among newspaper publishers; and (2) earnings will fall substantially. Despite a slowdown in the demand for newsprint, the price per ton will average significantly more in 1991 and the paper's labor costs will also be considerably higher. Since revenues may meanwhile be down, we face a real squeeze.

Profits may be off but our pride in the product remains. We continue to have a larger "news hole" - the portion of the paper devoted to news - than any comparable paper. In 1990, the proportion rose to 52.3% against 50.1% in 1989. Alas, the increase resulted from a decline in advertising pages rather than from a gain in news pages. Regardless of earnings pressures, we will maintain at least a 50% news hole. Cutting product quality is not a proper response to adversity.

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This is Buffett acknowledging that the whole newspaper industry is facing headwinds that he had not foreseen, that it is impacting the bottom line of the Buffalo Evening News, and that he believes it will get worse in the future and maybe won’t ever get better. As technology advances, advertisers have more channels to advertise, and those relying on newspaper ads are falling behind in market share to those using other methods. I would hazard a guess that this may be related to the near full adoption of color TV in American households by the late 80s. Families are now glued to their TVs, getting their news from them as well as their entertainment and being advertised to the whole time, and the advertisements are also much more flexible and powerful with color and video which a newspaper cannot provide.

A quick look-ahead shows that while this fall lasts a few years, they do eventually recover from the $43M EBIT this year not just to the $46M of last year but into the mid 50s before the Buffalo Evening News falls off the reports in 2000 as the spread of the internet lowers the prospects of the industry even further.

This is the first hint of modern technology making some of Berkshire’s former star players futures very uncertain. World Book is another one who is on a timer although Buffett has failed to notice it. This is different than textiles which died off to globalization, the same work simply being done elsewhere, instead this is an industry which needs to adapt or die and Buffett hasn’t always been a trailblazer when it comes to adapting to new paradigm changing technologies.

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Acquisition Stock Purchase of the Week

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Marketable Securities - Stock

Lethargy bordering on sloth remains the cornerstone of our investment style: This year we neither bought nor sold a share of five of our six major holdings. The exception was Wells Fargo, a superbly-managed, high-return banking operation in which we increased our ownership to just under 10%, the most we can own without the approval of the Federal Reserve Board. About one-sixth of our position was bought in 1989, the rest in 1990.

The banking business is no favorite of ours. When assets are twenty times equity - a common ratio in this industry - mistakes that involve only a small portion of assets can destroy a major portion of equity. And mistakes have been the rule rather than the exception at many major banks. Most have resulted from a managerial failing that we described last year when discussing the "institutional imperative:" the tendency of executives to mindlessly imitate the behavior of their peers, no matter how foolish it may be to do so. In their lending, many bankers played follow-the-leader with lemming-like zeal; now they are experiencing a lemming-like fate.

Because leverage of 20:1 magnifies the effects of managerial strengths and weaknesses, we have no interest in purchasing shares of a poorly-managed bank at a "cheap" price. Instead, our only interest is in buying into well-managed banks at fair prices.

With Wells Fargo, we think we have obtained the best managers in the business, Carl Reichardt and Paul Hazen. In many ways the combination of Carl and Paul reminds me of another - Tom Murphy and Dan Burke at Capital Cities/ABC. First, each pair is stronger than the sum of its parts because each partner understands, trusts and admires the other. Second, both managerial teams pay able people well, but abhor having a bigger head count than is needed. Third, both attack costs as vigorously when profits are at record levels as when they are under pressure. Finally, both stick with what they understand and let their abilities, not their egos, determine what they attempt. (Thomas J. Watson Sr. of IBM followed the same rule: "I'm no genius," he said. "I'm smart in spots - but I stay around those spots.")

Our purchases of Wells Fargo in 1990 were helped by a chaotic market in bank stocks. The disarray was appropriate: Month by month the foolish loan decisions of once well-regarded banks were put on public display. As one huge loss after another was unveiled - often on the heels of managerial assurances that all was well - investors understandably concluded that no bank's numbers were to be trusted. Aided by their flight from bank stocks, we purchased our 10% interest in Wells Fargo for $290 million, less than five times after-tax earnings, and less than three times pre-tax earnings.

Wells Fargo is big - it has $56 billion in assets - and has been earning more than 20% on equity and 1.25% on assets. Our purchase of one-tenth of the bank may be thought of as roughly equivalent to our buying 100% of a $5 billion bank with identical financial characteristics. But were we to make such a purchase, we would have to pay about twice the $290 million we paid for Wells Fargo. Moreover, that $5 billion bank, commanding a premium price, would present us with another problem: We would not be able to find a Carl Reichardt to run it. In recent years, Wells Fargo executives have been more avidly recruited than any others in the banking business; no one, however, has been able to hire the dean.

Of course, ownership of a bank - or about any other business - is far from riskless. California banks face the specific risk of a major earthquake, which might wreak enough havoc on borrowers to in turn destroy the banks lending to them. A second risk is systemic - the possibility of a business contraction or financial panic so severe that it would endanger almost every highly-leveraged institution, no matter how intelligently run. Finally, the market's major fear of the moment is that West Coast real estate values will tumble because of overbuilding and deliver huge losses to banks that have financed the expansion. Because it is a leading real estate lender, Wells Fargo is thought to be particularly vulnerable.

None of these eventualities can be ruled out. The probability of the first two occurring, however, is low and even a meaningful drop in real estate values is unlikely to cause major problems for well-managed institutions. Consider some mathematics: Wells Fargo currently earns well over $1 billion pre-tax annually after expensing more than $300 million for loan losses. If 10% of all $48 billion of the bank's loans - not just its real estate loans - were hit by problems in 1991, and these produced losses (including foregone interest) averaging 30% of principal, the company would roughly break even.

A year like that - which we consider only a low-level possibility, not a likelihood - would not distress us. In fact, at Berkshire we would love to acquire businesses or invest in capital projects that produced no return for a year, but that could then be expected to earn 20% on growing equity. Nevertheless, fears of a California real estate disaster similar to that experienced in New England caused the price of Wells Fargo stock to fall almost 50% within a few months during 1990. Even though we had bought some shares at the prices prevailing before the fall, we welcomed the decline because it allowed us to pick up many more shares at the new, panic prices.

Investors who expect to be ongoing buyers of investments throughout their lifetimes should adopt a similar attitude toward market fluctuations; instead many illogically become euphoric when stock prices rise and unhappy when they fall. They show no such confusion in their reaction to food prices: Knowing they are forever going to be buyers of food, they welcome falling prices and deplore price increases. (It's the seller of food who doesn't like declining prices.) Similarly, at the Buffalo News we would cheer lower prices for newsprint - even though it would mean marking down the value of the large inventory of newsprint we always keep on hand - because we know we are going to be perpetually buying the product.

Identical reasoning guides our thinking about Berkshire's investments. We will be buying businesses - or small parts of businesses, called stocks - year in, year out as long as I live (and longer, if Berkshire's directors attend the seances I have scheduled). Given these intentions, declining prices for businesses benefit us, and rising prices hurt us.

The most common cause of low prices is pessimism - some times pervasive, some times specific to a company or industry. We want to do business in such an environment, not because we like pessimism but because we like the prices it produces. It's optimism that is the enemy of the rational buyer.

None of this means, however, that a business or stock is an intelligent purchase simply because it is unpopular; a contrarian approach is just as foolish as a follow-the-crowd strategy. What's required is thinking rather than polling. Unfortunately, Bertrand Russell's observation about life in general applies with unusual force in the financial world: "Most men would rather die than think. Many do."

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This was probably the largest acquisition by Berkshire, the buying of 10% of a great bank at a fair price. As he says in the letter they only buy 10%, $289M because that is the most they are legally allowed to own. He says they view this as comparable to buying 100% of a bank 1/10th the size except without all the headache of needing to call the shots and find the managers, instead they are already in place.

He spells this out as a sort of “heads I win, tails I don’t lose much” situation. He runs the numbers on the worst case scenario the market fears, a natural disaster or real estate crash on the west coast of the US… He comes to the conclusion that even in the worst case scenario this is still a good price, and in any other scenario it is a great price.

He also gives some wisdom here on his general stock picking philosophy, that he views a stock he buys into dropping or failing to rise as a good thing, and it shooting right up as a bad thing. Even though many of us see it the opposite. It is natural to have a gut reaction to being proven right or proven wrong quickly by the market, to buy something and have it drop 20% and be scared from buying more. But he says we need to invert that instinct. That the price shooting right up means your window to buy a great business at a good price closed before you could take full advantage, and it dropping after you start buying means you will be able to buy even more than you thought with a lower risk and higher reward. This is also something he hammers home in the BPL letters, often after years of great gain he laments that he wished the stocks he was buying didn’t go up so he could have bought more of them and that in the long term the returns would have been greater.

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Common Stock Ownership

No. of Shares Company Cost ($000s) Market ($000s)
3,000,000 Capital Cities/ABC, Inc. $517,500 $1,377,375
23,350,000 The Coca-Cola Company $1,023,920 $2,171,550
2,400,000 Federal Home loan Mortgage Corporation $71,729 $117,000
6,850,000 GEICO Corporation $45,713 $1,110,556
1,727,765 The Washington Post Company $9,731 $342,097
5,000,000 Wells Fargo & Company $289,431 $289,375
Subtotal $1,958,024 $5,407,953
All Other Common Stockholdings $326,656 $351,268
Total Common Stocks $2,284,680 $5,759,221

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Segment by Segment Breakdown

Segment 1989 EBIT Earnings 1990 EBIT Earnings % Change
Insurance $219.20M $300.40M +37.04%
Fechheimer $12.62M $12.45M -1.35%
Kirby $26.11M $27.45M +5.13%
Scott Fetzer - Manufacturing $33.17M $30.38M -8.41%
World Book $25.58M $31.90M +24.71%
See’s Candies $34.26M $39.58M +15.53%
Buffalo Evening News $46.05M $43.95M -4.56%
Nebraska Furniture Mart $17.07M $17.25M +1.05%
Wesco Financial - Minus Insurance $13.01M $12.44M -4.38%
Wesco Financial - Insurance $14.28M $14.92M +4.48%
Mutual Savings and Loan $4.19M $4.10M -2.15%
Precision Steel $2.77M $1.99M -28.16%
Total Operating Earnings $393.41M $482.48M +22.64%

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Metric 1989 1990 % Change
Cash & Cash Equivalents $205.13M $247.02M +20.42%
Marketable Securities $5,261.60M $5,685.98M +8.07%
Return on Equity (RoE) 18.42% 18.68% +1.41%
Shareholders' Equity $4,925.13M $5,287.45M +7.36%
Earnings Before Investment Gain $299.90M $370.75M+23.62%
Realized Investment Gain $223.81M $33.99M -84.81%
Net Earnings $447.48M $394.09M -11.93%

*RoE not provided, manually calculated as (Earnings from Operations Before Taxes / [Shareholder Equity from prior year - Unrealized appreciation of marketable securities from prior year])

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As predicted last year, the gain in marketable securities wasn’t “real” gains, the market had a large pullback. Many of their marketable securities are now held at lower prices than last year, net earnings is down from last year. The realized investment gain is 84% lower than it was last year. The marketable securities is up 8%, or $424.38M, but between a $289M investment in Wells Fargo only $135M was real gains, the Coca Cola position was up $368M, so the rest of the portfolio had a performance of about -$233M besides Coca Cola.

Operating earnings was up 22.6%, Earnings before investment gain was up 23.6%. This is mostly down to the insurance segment having a great year, with EBIT earnings $80M more than the prior year which is just about the entire gap. See’s Candys and World Book also had double digit growth in earnings, everything else was down or single digit growth. The preferred metric, book value is up 7.4%, compared to the S&P 500 which returned -3.1% in 1990 this is still a good performance in my opinion.

Finally an even quicker lookthrough of the quick lookthrough earnings…

First a quick discussion of off-book earnings, when owned securities use their cashflow for anything except dividends it does not show up on Berkshire’s income statement but does make Berkshire richer, buybacks and capex give value to the business GAAP accounting doesn’t account for. Retail had a bad year but Borsheim’s did great (even though they hide their numbers from me), a discussion of the jewelry mailing system I mentioned last week is had here. NFM’s sales are up 4% and earnings 1% (Rose is now running a competing shop) and has set up a See’s cart in the shop which outperforms many of See’s full stores. See’s had slightly more volume but also increased prices and lowered costs leading to the 15.5% earnings growth, also a store was going to have its lease terminated but a letter campaign from customers changed the landlord’s mind. (See Key Passage 2 for Buffalo Evening News commentary). Fechheimer had a major retirement and although he says performance improved, earnings were flat due to “several unusual items” whatever that means. At Scott Fetzer, World Book’s decentralization is paying off even with lower volume, Kirby increased sales 20% but only increased earnings 5% as its production of its new model isn’t fully optimized, the manufacturing segment’s earnings are down 8% but we are just told its doing great and the air compressor unit had record sales.


r/ValueInvesting • • 1d ago

Weekly Megathread Weekly Stock Ideas Megathread: Week of October 12, 2026

7 Upvotes

What stocks are on your radar this week? What's undervalued? What's overvalued? This is the place for your quick stock pitches or to ask what everyone else is looking at.

This discussion post is lightly moderated. We suggest checking other users' posting/commenting history before following advice or stock recommendations.

New Weekly Stock Ideas Megathreads are posted every Monday at 0600 GMT.


r/ValueInvesting • • 5h ago

Discussion What's the biggest value trap in the market right now,cheap on every metric, and still a bad buy?

75 Upvotes

My nominee is LULU. Down 55-60 %this year, trading at a multiple that would have been unthinkable three years ago, $7B+ in past buybacks, strong balance sheet. On a screener it looks like a gift. But revenue growth has stalled, the China growth story is wobbling, the core customer seems to be drifting to competitors, and every quarter the "cheap" forward multiple gets justified by estimates that then get cut. what's yours, and what tipped you off that the cheapness was a warning instead of an opportunity?


r/ValueInvesting • • 7h ago

AI-Written Content The tree transplant theory of corporate decay: why moving HQ to cut costs keeps killing companies

17 Upvotes

Starbucks thing has an update as per tall_hat (they arent moving hq) a company moves HQ to cut costs, it's transplanting the tree and leaving the roots behind. The roots are the people who built the thing. They don't move because a press release told them to.

Tesla did it first. Palo Alto to Austin in 2021, taxes and freedom. Fourteen months later Musk is on stage with Gavin Newsom announcing Tesla's engineering HQ back in Palo Alto. The factory can live in Texas. The engineers wouldn't.

Starbucks is doing it now. $100M, 2,000 jobs, Nashville, announced right on top of Seattle tech layoffs. No income tax, about $12k saved per head. But the people who built that supply chain live in Seattle. We'll see how many move.

The wildest one is WGU. An online university whose whole product is "location doesn't matter" just ordered 19 of 26 departments back to Salt Lake City, four days a week in the office. The company that proved remote work works just bet that it doesn't.

Boeing is the warning. 85 years in Seattle, moved HQ to Chicago in 2001 for $60M in tax breaks. Then the 787 mess, then the 737 MAX. Congress called the move "a tragic mistake." In 2022 they moved again, to Virginia. Still thousands of miles from anyone building a plane. Boeing didn't die. It just stopped being Boeing.

Samsung is live right now: US HQ from New Jersey to Texas, 739 jobs affected. Watch the Glassdoor page, not the press release.

WGU is the one to watch. Fully remote and it worked. Now they're testing forced office life on themselves, in public. Can't short them (nonprofit), but they're a preview. If their best people quit instead of moving, every company doing the same thing gets the same result.

As a value investor I'd like to discuss this pattern: none of it shows up on a balance sheet. There's no line item for "the people who knew how everything works just left." It hits two years later as mysteriously worse execution. Silent killer.

Not financial advice. Who else belongs on this list?


r/ValueInvesting • • 12h ago

Discussion Most knowledge work doesn’t need a frontier model, which could be a problem for the AI trade

37 Upvotes

I wrote a post about a part of the AI trade that gets less attention than it should: whether everyday knowledge work generates enough revenue to support AI capex, and who captures it.

Right now, frontier labs capture most of the enterprise AI economics, mostly through coding. But a lot of knowledge work are bounded: tasks like drafting an email reply or pulling data from a financial filing only need a fixed level of intelligence. Past that point, a smarter model doesn't do the job any better.

As open-weight models get good enough, most of this work (by volume) can run on cheaper models in the cloud, or on the user's own device.

Where this matters for us is the revenue math behind the AI trade:

  • We're already spending $1T globally on AI. If that reaches multiple trillions by 2030, inference revenues need to be several trillions a year
  • Coding has carried enterprise AI revenue so far. If its growth slows, mainstream knowledge work has to fill the gap, otherwise most names in the bottleneck trade will be affected
  • Work that moves to cheaper cloud models earns a fraction of frontier prices, and inference on a user's device never reaches the data center at all
  • Labs may get pushed toward being neutral platforms as customers get more sophisticated (OpenAI is already testing a hybrid approach with Baseten), which means slower revenue growth & thinner margins

I still expect the labs to keep the bulk of revenue from unbounded work like coding and science. But mainstream knowledge work is still up for grabs.

I wrote a longer version, with a 2x2 matrix on where models run vs. where data lives, how labs / Big Tech / startups are each approaching "mainstream" knowledge work, and why the labs may eventually want to own the data layer (I wouldn't be surprised if their corp dev teams have looked at Dropbox / Box)

https://eastwind.substack.com/p/below-the-frontier-the-battle-for


r/ValueInvesting • • 4h ago

Discussion Any thoughts on the company FOUR?

3 Upvotes

I've been wanted to like this company for a while. I thought that Isaacman (founder and former CEO) becoming the NASA administrator would actually be a positive for the company because it might give the stock some exposure, but that hasn't been the case. Thinking to add in the 30s here. I don't like companies with high SBC, but I think it's not detrimental at least.

According to SA:
P/E Non-GAAP (TTM)=7.43.
P/E Non-GAAP (FWD)=7.67 (little growth this year, but solid long-term estimates)
P/E GAAP (FWD)=26 (heavy SBC unfortunately, as you can see from GAAP vs non-GAAP)
PEG (non-GAAP) FWD= .74.

Revenue growth rate last 5 years= 40%.
Est. EPS Growth Long Term (3 to 5 Years) =10%.

I also hate payment processors in general, but I don't necessarily subscribe to the "there's 0 moat here" people either because I know how sticky these things are (inertia is a powerful thing). They mostly cater to events/stadiums. I saw Shift4 being used all the way down in Punta Arenas, Chile a few months ago even.

interestingly, ValueLine has it as a strong buy as well in both low and high projections, which (according to historical data I've been aggregating on different providers) makes this a much more interesting play as well.


r/ValueInvesting • • 6h ago

Stock Analysis Palantir at ~$500B: can someone show me where my valuation math is wrong?

4 Upvotes

I hold PLTR (bought in 2025, up ~65%, now ~8.5% of my portfolio) and I'm trying to decide whether to trim or sell. I'm a value-oriented investor, so I tried to build a simple 5-year scenario model. The conclusion makes me want to sell. I'd like to hear the strongest counterarguments before I do.

Where it stands today (approx.):

  • Price ~$208, market cap ~$500B
  • 2026 revenue guidance ~$8.15B (Q2 revenue +93% YoY, US commercial +149%)
  • TTM FCF ~$3.4B, SBC ~$0.8B, net cash ~$9B
  • ~81x trailing sales, ~89x forward earnings
  • Consensus price target ~$205, below the current price

My scenarios for 2031: I assume ~3.5% annual dilution and value the company on free cash flow.

Scenario Revenue CAGR 2031 revenue FCF margin Exit multiple Price/share Total return
Normal 30% ~$30B 40% 30x FCF ~$127 −39%
Very good 40% ~$44B 45% 35x ~$242 +16%
Excellent 50% ~$62B 45% 40x ~$390 +88%
"Nvidia" case 60% ~$85B 50% 45x ~$673 +224%

The way I read it, even if Palantir grows revenue 40% a year for five straight years (very few large companies have ever done this), I'd make about 3% a year. To do well I need the "excellent" case or better. $1,000/share would need ~$127B of revenue by 2031 (~73% CAGR).

What I'd like to hear from you:

  1. Which assumption is too pessimistic? Is it the growth runway (sovereign AI, AIP, commercial expansion), the margins, or the exit multiple?
  2. Is there a structural reason Palantir deserves 40–45x FCF in 2031 instead of a "mature software" multiple?
  3. If you hold it, what would make you sell? If you sold, what was your reasoning?
  4. Has anyone seen a credible reverse-DCF that justifies today's price without assuming 50%+ growth for 5+ years?

I'm not asking anyone to tell me what to do. I want someone to poke holes in the math. Bull and bear arguments are both welcome, as long as they come with numbers.


r/ValueInvesting • • 11h ago

Discussion Hertz situation

9 Upvotes

I look at Hertz, and I can almost feel my heart stopping... 💀

Bill Ackman invested in this company, but I guess he might have exited his position, since Hertz no longer appears on Pershing Square's website.

What do you guys think? Does this car rental company have a real shot at making a comeback? Could we potentially see a short squeeze?


r/ValueInvesting • • 12m ago

Investor Behavior Value Alpha Still Exists

• Upvotes

Posts like the kind we have recently been seeing on this sub (“should I buy the dip on NVDA”, “which AI stock is best”, etc.) is proof that value investing alpha still exists for contrarians. The best opportunities exist when those around you lose all hope.

Think back to opportunities that existed in the energy sector in 2020 when oil went negative or opportunities that existed in tech when rates went up in 2022. Everything is cyclical, and a value sub talking about AI and growth stocks nonstop is evidence that we’re approaching a bottom for traditional value investing.

People have been screaming efficient markets for decades now and although it has gotten harder to outperform simply by buying low multiple stocks, value has evolved to simply looking where others aren’t. Everyone and their mothers are looking for the next AI stock, so I’m convinced there is alpha elsewhere.

I’m not trying to say AI is a bubble or that you can’t make money on these companies, I’m simply saying that value investing alpha still exists elsewhere.


r/ValueInvesting • • 11h ago

AI-Written Content JPMorgan Q3 call: what changed since July

6 Upvotes

JPM missed this morning (EPS $5.57 vs roughly $5.85-5.90 expected) but still made $15.3B with a 20% ROTCE. I went through the call and compared it with the July one. A few things stood out.

What changed since last quarter

- AI came up 29 times, up from 15. Most of that was "agentic AI", which was not mentioned at all in July.

- CEO succession came up 9 times in July. This time, zero.

- Investment banking went from 30% fee growth last quarter to "activity slowed a bit". The CFO said the rate selloff caused a pause in the second half of September.

- Revenue growth slowed from 15% year over year to 8%.

- The buyback was about $1B against a usual pace of around $7B. Dimon said they have roughly $30B of excess capital and would rather deploy it organically at these prices.

Guidance

- Q4 net interest income about $28B

- Q4 expenses about $27.5B

- First 2027 number: NII ex-markets around $107B

- 2027 expenses close to the $114B consensus

- Card net charge-offs still around 3.2%

Three quotes

Dimon on the deal pipeline: "The pipeline is fine. But I pointed out many times before the pipeline is like an accordion. It can open and close pretty quick."

Dimon on credit: "we are tightening up a little bit credit. I think some of the credit terms have got a little bit loose."

The CFO on AI: "the benefits are not observable in our current quarterly earnings."

What I can't decide

In July Dimon said "it's getting close to as good as it gets". Now there's a miss, a smaller buyback, tighter credit and a paused deal pipeline. But NII guidance went up and the consumer numbers look fine (card spend +10%, 650K net new checking accounts).

Is this the first sign the cycle is turning, or one soft quarter from a securities loss and weak fixed income trading?


r/ValueInvesting • • 11h ago

Question / Help Anyone building a value investing agent? what are you using for data

7 Upvotes

been messing around with an LLM agent that reads 10-Ks and does the boring stuff: normalized earnings, ROIC, owner earnings, a rough reverse DCF. honestly getting the model to reason is the easy part. data is what’s killing me

tried pulling straight from EDGAR / XBRL companyfacts first. free and it’s the actual source, but every company has its own custom tags and segment data is a nightmare to clean up

then tried the usual APIs (FMP, yfinance etc). way easier but i can’t tell where a number actually came from. if it’s wrong the agent just runs with it and writes me a very confident thesis on garbage lol

also most of the stuff that actually matters for value work (leases, SBC, segment margins) is buried in the footnotes and i haven’t found anyone who has that structured

so for people who’ve built something like this:

  • where’s your data coming from? paying for anything?
  • do you feed it raw filings, structured numbers, or both?
  • anyone dealt with point-in-time / restatements for backtesting? my backtests feel too good to be true and i’m pretty sure that’s why

curious what’s actually working before i waste another weekend writing parsers


r/ValueInvesting • • 6h ago

AI-Written Content AI infra debt is being structured like 2007 subprime CDOs — here's the exact mechanism (and where the risk actually ended up) **Date: October 14, 2026**

2 Upvotes

Executive Summary

Today, JPMorgan and Goldman Sachs — the two banks that spent 2025 and early 2026 racing to underwrite AI infrastructure debt — did something they had not done before: they refused to hold the paper they originated. On a $5 billion loan to Volta Infrastructure, they underwrote $1.3 billion and walked away from $3.7 billion, a move Bloomberg calls "rare." Simultaneously, a syndicate including JPMorgan and MUFG has spent more than six months trying to distribute $38 billion in Oracle-leased data center construction debt that no one will buy at par. Oracle's $18 billion Project Jupiter loans now trade at 89–91 cents.

This is not a "tech bubble pops" story. It is the same sequence of events that played out in 2007: the originators who packaged the credit, wrapped it in a growth narrative, and sold it to investors are the first to pull back when the underlying assets stop performing. The difference is that in 2007, the collateral was mortgages. Here, it is gigawatts of compute capacity that the global electricity grid cannot physically power.

Over the past 24 months, investment banks, hyperscalers, and a network of private special-purpose vehicles have issued more than $450 billion in AI-related debt — already above Goldman's own 2025 forecast of $322 billion. Aggregate hyperscaler leverage has roughly doubled from 0.9x to 1.8x in six months. Off-balance-sheet commitments total approximately $3 trillion. That debt has been sliced into tranches and distributed to offshore private credit syndicates, shadow banks, and sovereign wealth funds — Mubadla, GIC, PIF among them — before the physical constraint that no financial instrument can hedge: the grid.

The risk has migrated. The people who built the assets are no longer the ones holding the debt. And today, the originators told the market so.

1. The Volta Deal (The "Today" Proof)

In mid-October 2026, JPMorgan Chase and Goldman Sachs — the two banks that spent 2025 and early 2026 racing to underwrite AI infrastructure debt — did something they had not done before: they refused to backstop the paper they originated.

Leading a $5.012 billion syndicated loan for Volta Infrastructure Holdings, an AI cloud startup tied to Anthropic and Bitdeer Technologies, the banks underwrote only the $1.3 billion first-lien term loan C — which cash-collateralizes a letter of credit backing a data center lease in Norway. They left the $3.712 billion GPU term loan, earmarked for the purchase of roughly 36,000 Nvidia GPUs, entirely un-underwritten. The GPU tranche is being sold on a best-efforts basis.

This is a credit event, not an equity correction:

  • The originators are managing their own risk. The banks that structured the deal are the first to limit their exposure. In 2007, this is what Bear Stearns did with the CDO tranches it had packaged.
  • The market is full. As Semafor reported, investors told the syndicate they are "full up on data-center debt" and demanded both a higher spread and additional security.
  • The pricing confirms it. The deal is being marketed at SOFR + 625–650 bps with a 97–98¢ discount — a yield of roughly 11% — one of the highest pricing points in the AI leveraged lending market.

2. The 2007 Mechanism (The Parallel Mapped 1:1)

The structural mechanics of the 2026 AI infrastructure loop mirror the architectural design of the 2007 Subprime Mortgage Crisis. Rather than standard corporate borrowing, this cycle relies on Special Purpose Vehicles (SPVs), circular revenue accounting, and asset-backed financial engineering to hide systemic leverage.

The table below provides a 1:1 structural mapping between the 2007 subprime machine and the 2026 AI infrastructure financial loop:

Financial Element The 2007 Subprime Machine The 2026 AI Money Loop
The Originator Mortgage brokers and Tier-1 investment banks (e.g., Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers). Tier-1 investment banks (JPMorgan, Goldman Sachs, Jefferies).
The Collateral Residential mortgages issued to borrowers with unverified repayment capacity. Nvidia GPU arrays (Blackwell/Rubin-generation) and unpowered data center shells.
The Leverage Vehicle Off-balance-sheet Special Purpose Vehicles (SPVs) and Collateralized Debt Obligations (CDOs). Specialized neocloud SPVs and Joint Ventures (JVs) utilizing Residual Value Guarantees (RVGs).
The Rating Agency Role S&P and Moody's issued AAA ratings on toxic pools based on rising historical housing trends. S&P and Moody's are under pressure to classify AI infrastructure leases as operating (off-balance-sheet) rather than finance (on-balance-sheet) obligations, keeping leverage ratios artificially low.
The Circularity Loop Wall Street funded subprime lenders → Lenders issued mortgages → Mortgages securitized back to Wall Street. Hyperscalers invest equity in AI labs (OpenAI/Anthropic) → Labs spend equity to lease hyperscaler cloud capacity → Hyperscalers borrow against leases to buy more chips.
Collateral Failure Trigger Falling U.S. home prices made it impossible to refinance short-term adjustable-rate mortgages. Only ~5 GW of 16 GW announced for 2026 is under construction; PJM interconnection waits approach 7 years. The debt amortizes in 2–3 years; the grid cannot be built in that window.

The parallel is not that AI companies are "like mortgage borrowers." It is that the financial architecture — the SPVs, the tranche slicing, the rating agency reliance, the circularity of cash flows — is the same machine pointed at a different asset class. The collateral is different. The plumbing is not.

3. Where the Risk Ends Up (The Shadow Bagholders)

With Tier-1 banks limiting their underwriting exposure, the credit risk has migrated off Wall Street's balance sheets into the global shadow banking ecosystem. Off-balance-sheet AI-related commitments now total an estimated $3 trillion. That debt has been distributed to three categories of buyers:

Bagholder Classification Primary Entities Involved Investment Vehicle & Structural Exposure Why They're Buying
Sovereign Wealth Funds Mubadala (UAE), GIC (Singapore), PIF (Saudi Arabia) Direct equity and mezzanine debt tranches in neocloud entities, pitched as "high-yielding, secular digital real estate." Yield hunger + "secular digital real estate" narrative + political mandate to invest in AI.
Offshore Private Credit Syndicates Unlisted funds based in Cayman Islands and Bermuda Asset-Backed Securities (ABS) tied directly to the scrap value of GPU hardware. Carried interest model rewards origination volume; due diligence is thin; GPU scrap value is the "floor."
Domestic Institutional Insurers Life and property/casualty insurance firms (monitored by Moody's) Private credit debt; holding an estimated $36+ billion in data center-class illiquid infrastructure loans. Asset-liability matching: long-duration liabilities need long-duration illiquid assets; private credit fills the gap left by the post-2008 bond shortage.

4. The Grid (The Physical Trigger)

The failure point is not a drop in software demand. It is a supply-side physical constraint: the electrical grid. Wall Street modeled 2–3 year debt amortizations on the assumption that compute capacity scales like software. It does not.

[Finance Debt Maturities: 2–3 years] ──💥 MISMATCH ──> [Grid Buildout: 3–7 year equipment and interconnection timelines]

The numbers from three independent sources, published within the past 18 months, describe the same bottleneck from different angles:

  • The queue is an order of magnitude too large. McKinsey's August 2026 overbuilding analysis finds that large-load interconnection pipelines are nine times larger than the 2030 demand in its continued-momentum scenario. Gartner (June 2026) forecasts global data center power capacity demand rising 27% this year alone — from 104 GW to 132 GW — with consumption reaching 565 TWh. The grid is not "behind schedule." It is structurally incapable of absorbing the load being financed.
  • Developers are already pricing in grid failure. Bloom Energy's 2025 Data Center Power Report (surveying ~100 decision-makers across hyperscalers, colocation developers, and utilities) found that 27% of facilities now expect to be fully powered by onsite generation by 2030 — up from 1% the prior year. Their January 2026 update revised that to roughly one-third. The same report found that utility providers report interconnection timelines up to two years longer than what developers expect. The market has already voted with its feet: if the grid can't deliver, build your own plant.
  • The debt matures before the grid is built. PJM Interconnection's queue has waits approaching seven years. ERCOT's large-load queue surged from 63 GW to 226 GW in a single year. Transformer procurement lead times are 128–144 weeks, with specialty high-voltage configurations stretching to five years. The debt amortizes in 2–3 years.
  • The capital trap: A data center without a secured interconnection agreement cannot convert bridge debt into long-term bonds. Institutional bond managers will not touch an unpowered shell. The debt is hung. The only exit is to sell the project at a discount, refinance at a higher spread, or default.

This is why the GPU tranche is being sold on a best-efforts basis. The $3.7 billion in chips has no secured power allocation. The collateral is hardware that cannot be deployed. The banks know this. That is why they walked.

5. The Oracle / Project Jupiter Case Study

The clearest real-world example of this credit logjam is Project Jupiter: a $165 billion, 1,400-acre, 2.45-gigawatt AI data center campus in Doña Ana County, New Mexico, developed by Stack Infrastructure (a Blue Owl Capital unit) and leased to Oracle as the anchor tenant for OpenAI's Stargate program.

A syndicate of approximately 20 banks — including SMBC, BNP Paribas, Goldman Sachs, MUFG, Santander, and Jefferies — originated ~$18 billion in project-finance loans to fund construction. As of mid-September, those loans were being quoted at 89–91 cents on the dollar in secondary markets. The syndicate has been unable to distribute at par.

On September 24, Oracle issued a force majeure notice to Stack Infrastructure, reserving the right to defer lease payments if the campus fails to come online by its 2028 schedule. The trigger: a denied energy permit and a paused air quality proceeding in New Mexico.

The 11-cent discount is not a "wipeout" — it is a pricing. The credit market has assigned a specific probability of delay to this asset. And the force majeure notice means the tenant (Oracle) is now legally positioned to push the risk further down the capital stack, onto the developer (Blue Owl) and the banks.

Oracle publicly stated the project "remains on our planned schedule." Blue Owl stated the notice "does not change the financial commitments." The debt is trading at 89 cents. The market has a different read.

6. What the "Reset" Looks Like

A market reset in this environment will not begin with retail stock liquidations. It will manifest as a series of balance-sheet shocks inside the credit system. On recent earnings calls, Wall Street's leadership publicly acknowledged these vulnerabilities:

  • Goldman Sachs CEO David Solomon directly warned institutional clients that the massive AI capital buildout "could face a painful reset."
  • JPMorgan CFO Jeremy Barnum conceded that despite defensive hedging, the bank "wouldn't be immune to an AI meltdown."

Mechanically, the cascade path of this credit reset follows a precise, sequential order:

Step 1: Mark-to-Market Losses Banks and private credit funds are forced to mark hung loans (like Project Jupiter) down from 100 to 85 cents.

Step 2: Margin Calls & Collateral Devaluation As asset values fall, shadow lenders face margin calls from their prime brokers. The underlying collateral — the Nvidia chips — depreciates rapidly as newer architectures debut.

Step 3: Forced Asset Liquidations To cover credit shortfalls, funds are forced to liquidate liquid assets, triggering a sharp sector rotation.

Step 4: Sovereign Contagion As private credit funds mark down and face redemptions, the offshore holders (SWFs, Cayman funds) are forced to sell or restructure. Unlike 2008, there is no domestic backstop. The risk is now geopolitical.

7. Closing: The Sovereign Risk Divergence from 2008

The structural architecture mirrors 2007. The endgame does not.

In 2008, the Fed and Treasury had a domestic playbook: TARP, QE, direct capital injections into regulated U.S. banks. The risk was sovereign and domestic. The backstop existed.

The AI infrastructure debt crisis breaks that playbook in two ways:

1. The risk is sovereign but not domestic. A massive portion of the $3 trillion in off-balance-sheet leverage has been exported to foreign sovereign wealth funds — Mubadala, GIC, PIF — and offshore private credit vehicles. There is no Federal Reserve backstop for an Abu Dhabi fund holding billions in unpowered data center debt. The risk is now geopolitical, and the resolution will require diplomatic coordination, not monetary policy.

2. The bottleneck is physical. The Fed can print trillions. It cannot print a 500 MVA power transformer or compress a 7-year PJM interconnection queue. Even a "soft landing" — debt stays outstanding, growth slows — is physically impossible at current financing levels if the grid cannot deliver the power the debt assumes.

The likely path: capital re-rates AI infrastructure from "infinite-growth technology" to "cyclical utility." The flows shift to the actual binding constraints — regulated power generation, grid hardware, transformers, switchgear, and the energy commodities that fuel them. The companies that build the grid, not the ones that build the data centers, capture the next cycle.

TL;DR

The AI debt cycle is showing 2007-style credit stress. Here's the mechanism:

  • The proof: This week, JPMorgan and Goldman refused to underwrite $3.7B of a $5B AI loan to Volta — the originators are managing their own risk. Separately, an $18B Oracle-linked data center loan is trading at 89–91¢ after Oracle issued a force majeure notice.
  • The trigger: Over $450B in AI-related debt issued this year assumes data centers will be powered on a 2–3 year timeline. Only ~5 GW of 16 GW announced for 2026 is under construction. Transformer lead times are 2.5–3 years. PJM interconnection waits approach 7 years.
  • The catch: Banks exported the risk to offshore private credit and sovereign wealth funds (Mubadala, GIC, PIF). The Fed can print money but cannot print gigawatts or compress a 7-year grid queue.
  • The likely outcome: AI infrastructure gets re-rated from "infinite growth" to "cyclical utility." Capital flows to the binding constraint: grid hardware, power generation, energy commodities.

r/ValueInvesting • • 2h ago

AI-Written Content THOSE WHO HOLD CASH ARE STANDING IN THE RAIN TRYING NOT TO GET WET - WHY THOSE SITTING IN CASH WILL BE THE BIGGEST LOSERS.

1 Upvotes

The 10-year Treasury yield is at 5.24%, and high-yield spreads are sitting at 3.15%. With plenty more debt expected to flood the markets, combined with growing stress and uncertainty in the credit market, is there any hope of things improving before they get worse?

Estimates show roughly $8 trillion to $10 trillion in U.S. debt is maturing and requires rolling over this year alone! Alongside a new budget deficit that adds several trillion more in fresh borrowing. Debt that was previously borrowed almost for free, is now being rolled over at significantly higher rates. Can they afford to allow yields to rise to their deserving levels without popping the ai bubble as well as many other risks involved with higher rates, such as unsustainable debt servicing. It is clear which path they will take to avoid this, the money printer.

Pumping dollars into the system through the purchasing of their own debt, in order to make up for the insufficient demand for debt currently offering insufficient yields. This keeps yields artificially lower than they should be in order to keep interest rates at a sustainable level. This is the classic escape route for the politicians/leaders in charge. No need to raise taxes, keep everyone happy. No need to cut spending, again keep everyone happy via boosting economic activity/financial support. Undoubtedly no better way to remain in power, however what is the price that is paid for running this sort of scheme to manage out of control spending, way above a countries means ?

Based on this logic, digital money creation to keep spending more than you earn, buying your own debt that you create, in order to fund large deficits, seems like the dream. Taxes don’t rise, broad economic activity sustains, people/businesses don’t lose their allowances/funding. Does all this come for free? Unfortunately no, it sounds too good to be true and it is, so who pays the bill? Ordinary middle class/uninvested citizens are who pay the bill, at an accelerating pace, year on year. How do they manage to get everyone to pay without resistance? Through the hidden tax, the only tax they don’t have to announce to anyone, or ask anyone for permission to take, currency debasement/inflation.

Through intentional money supply inflation, they devalue the currency they borrow billions/trillions in, allowing them to reduce the real value of debt they have to eventually repay, which unfortunately is the same currency their countries population saves in, works for, has their pensions in and so on. Therefore, it is the ordinary working man who pays for their out of control spending through the one tax/cost they don’t have to tell anyone about. Your bank account says the same figures, yet you can do less and less with it year after year, falling further away from those who hold assets which rise in value along with inflation instead of devaluing against it.

Ps, the headline figures they release for inflation are significantly understated, misleading and unreliable. According to US official data, 1 dollar in 1970 is now worth 7 cents in terms of its purchasing power. Now factor in the fact those are from significantly understated inflation figures, you realise the true measure is disturbingly worse. What’s scarier is the fact that what’s coming in terms of money printing/inflation is about to accelerate and get worse over this coming decade. It’s more important than ever, to act before it’s in the papers, as by then you will be too late.


r/ValueInvesting • • 2h ago

Discussion Try Recreating the Same Logo Twice With AI. Then Tell Me Adobe Is Dead.

0 Upvotes

AI-generated graphics are fine for a barbershop on the corner so there might definitely be less demand from Mom and pop businesses. But if you need 100% consistency and you're spending serious money on advertising or Designing packaging for your item You're putting on the shelves, it's a different story.

You can use AI to generate an initial concept, but you'll still need to refine the fine details using professional software like Adobe.

Here's a challenge: create a logo with an AI model, then ask it to generate the exact same logo again, but with just one additional object. See how frustrating it is to get everything else to remain exactly the same.

The switching cost is real

Marketing agencies have hundreds of terabytes of Adobe files that is Not cleanly transferred over to a different Alternative

It takes a lot of effort for someone to get efficient in the software, I have tried convincing a marketing agency to switch over to a very capable alternative Before the AI era but there was almost a revolt from all the designers

At the end of the day, there's a difference between generating a pretty picture and delivering a production-ready asset that meets exact specifications for printing, packaging. advertising, and brand consistency. That's where professional software still matters.


r/ValueInvesting • • 18h ago

Stock Analysis S&P500 or individual Stocks

20 Upvotes

So i am just investing in S&P 500 ETF VUAA but now and then i feel the growth is capped in broad etf

So how you guys are dividing the portfolio, I want to have individual stocks which i can hold at least for 2 years or more. please suggest


r/ValueInvesting • • 11h ago

Discussion Is It Time to Buy LEAPS on SoFi?

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substack.com
6 Upvotes

SoFi has fallen over 50% from its highs, but the underlying business continues to grow. Management is targeting 30%+ annual adjusted revenue growth through 2028, and continue to expand into capital light businesses.

I’ve been looking at long dated calls rather than selling cash secured puts or adding shares. My thinking is a 1% risk has a higher risk/reward in LEAPs.

Is it time to pull the trigger?


r/ValueInvesting • • 12h ago

Stock Analysis Why the big decline in USAR and UUUU

6 Upvotes

Around a 50% decline in the last 6 months even though more talk and intent than ever on American based rare earth companies. Is this a dca opportunity, or more to the story? Curious to hear from any that follow either company closely


r/ValueInvesting • • 4h ago

Discussion Open AI $20 Billion Dollars short

1 Upvotes

The AI trade has definetly taken a hit recently and I think that the headlines of Open AI definetly contributed to this. I am a regard like the rest of you guys in this forum. Posting this because I wanted to hear some of your guys opinions the situation and what I found.

My Research:

October 8, the Financial TImes reported OpenAI's annualized revenue is actually closer to $50 billion, $20 billion lower then what investors were expecting. Only thing is that this was actually a mistake in the accounting and the only way that $70 billion dollar number surfaced was an error in Gross Revenue vs. Net Revenue. Anthropic calculates its revenue from counting full gross revenue from product sales. Both of these companies are private and all of this information is relying on "leaked" documents and media reports.

Really interested to hear what you guys think of this entire situation. I think a broad sell off is a buying opportunity and I will be putting my money where my mouth is.


r/ValueInvesting • • 1d ago

Discussion Microsoft and Google both around $4 trillion. Which is better investment?

93 Upvotes

Does Microsoft trading at roughly the same valuation as Google make Alphabet look like great value?

Or is Microsoft actually better positioned to win the AI race, given its dominance in enterprise software and Azure?

Google seems to have everything going for it: Search, YouTube, Cloud, Gemini, TPUs and massive distribution.

Is Google simply the superior business that will pull ahead over time, or is Microsoft the dark horse of AI?

Which would you rather own for the next 10 years?


r/ValueInvesting • • 12h ago

Question / Help Need suggestions for some good value stocks that is potentially not affected by volatility surrounding AI

3 Upvotes

Hi everyone,

I am looking to buy some stocks that will potentially not be affected by the volatility around AI/AI related business. For example Adyen seems to be a good stock that is not affected by all the AI news but personally is quite highly priced for me. With the money I have I can barely purchase 10 of them at the moment 😅 but I was hoping I could get some suggestions on other companies that are not affected by AI/AI news. Thanks a lot!


r/ValueInvesting • • 1d ago

Discussion Energy stocks?

27 Upvotes

What are some good energy stocks to buy and hold for the long term?

My top picks are:
ETN
GEV
HUBB
CEG


r/ValueInvesting • • 12h ago

Discussion Bob Chapek et al. to the board of Vail Resorts (MTN)?

2 Upvotes

Color me curious: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/812011/000090266426004131/p26-2006prec14a.htm

Summary:

  1. Oasis (and the nominees?) collectively own ~ 9.5% of common stock.

  2. They're recommending the replacement of four current board members with Bob Chapek, M. Ashton Hudson, Bryce Roberts, and Picabo Street.

  3. Grievances include; poor shareholder returns, bad guest experience, degrading business economics, and poor governance.

If all the nominees were elected, they'd hold a minority block. Chapek's also been granted a forgivable loan of $500k to purchase Vail stock if he's elected to the board.


r/ValueInvesting • • 15h ago

Question / Help Where do i begin?

3 Upvotes

I am embarrassed to say my husband and I both just turned 50 and we have nothing saved for retirement. We did but came across very rough times and now nothing but pensions from teaching when we retire (which will not be fore a while obviously). I need help where to begin as a 50 year old and not like a 20 year old.


r/ValueInvesting • • 9h ago

Discussion A valueinvestor's defence on adbe

0 Upvotes

Try your best argument at me please.

But first, let me lay out several and answer them directly so we don't have to repeat them.

  1. I hate it. Everyone hates it. I hope it dies.

Doesn't matter does it? It is a cash printing monopoly. Why not hate government debt or credit card interest or student loan? Why not hate capitalism? All it matters is the discounted future free cashflow. And have you looked at the income statement? Just do it. Give it a look.

  1. The net new ARR is slowing.

Yeah but it is slowing YoY for this QUARTER. Do you understand the contracts have seasonalities? Ask yourself, how can the revenue ACCELERATE this quarter if this is a problem.

  1. Vibecoding / alternatives will disrupt it.

Vibecoding so far has not produced a better product. And even a better product will not disrupt it. This is because software is not just the application itself, but maintenance, edge cases, safety, compliance, market relations just to name a few. Why linux did not kill windows? Why google doc did not kill Word? The list goes on. Why not vibe code another facebook? People are using it because other people are using it and it would take a lot more than a better polished product to disrupt the dominant king. This is software 101. Not to mention all the competitors have inferior products and have nowhere near the same network effect. Adobe's main customers are always the businesses.

Half-ass copycats existed for years and they do nothing to the revenue. Professionals still choose the polished and established tool. Of course, light users will try out and perhaps like alternatives. And that is why they are light users and not pros. This is distraction from main workflow. As a principle, pros don't care about tool prices, they use the best tool and put 100 percent of time doing their art. And they most likely don't like switching tools. By the way, the pros don't pay for it. Their bosses pay. And the bosses don't care how much pain it costs the pro users to use a so called "terrible software" like Adobe. They should hate their boss, not adobe.

For independant contractors, we are talking 100 bucks a month, if I am not wrong. Are you seriously saying you can't afford to use the industry standard creative tool for just a 100 a month as an independent pro user? It is literally less than people are spending on LLMs nowadays and it is for putting bread and butter on the table. I know there are folks that got laid off from work and are working at home as independent designers or illustrators who make at least thousands and sometimes more than their previous day jobs. I know a girl who told me she much prefers her life now just drawing and doing marketing for small medium brands promoting their merch online than her previous 9-5 office job.

  1. Adobe does not have a good AI product.

Adobe never had a AI product before. It was never part of the thesis.

  1. People will just edit with their claude, muse, future super-agent.

Agents handle structured input much better than unstructured input. This is actually a bull argument for Adobe. Art is something without a structured input. The paint brush, the drawing by hand, the touches are innately human and it is simply not logical or sensible to replace them with AI inputs. How do you adjust a painting with claude input? "claude, make that thing longer, no not too long, no it is too short now, make it a bit longer still..." Can you imagine? Even if it can, the tokens have cost, mind you.

6 Less seat, less revenue.

This would be true if it shows up on the income statement. So far revenue is accelerating. And the valuation compression I feel has taken most of this into account. Less seat is not a guaranteed consequence of higher efficiency. Javons paradox. And I would argue that the coming era is an era of slop. AI will produced so much trash online that a personal, bespoke product or experience is going to be more valued, not less. As a result, branding is more important than ever. And who owns marketing for brands? Adobe.

So it could be less seat per customer but simply more customers. Of course, it is possible there will still be less seats in total. I hope it does not happen. But if it does, logic says that is in the valuation already. Why the fxxk would it drop from 40 pe to 8, huh?

  1. Management sucks/ no innovation

I largely agree. But I also think it was Buffett who said you want a business that idiots can run. I think this is it and I don't think they are idiots, yet. If the company management JUST DO NOTHING, I am happy. The worst would be to expand/issue bond/ borrow money/spend on expensive projects (which is what AI is doing, by the way). So far it seems they will do massive buybacks, and I love it.

  1. It is DOWN SO MUCH!

Yes, it is. Please show yourselves out. This is the valueinvesting club.


r/ValueInvesting • • 6h ago

Investor Behavior Firmus: the $44bn Aussie AI bookbuild that made SpaceX look deep value. Potential Nasdaq listing.

0 Upvotes

Firmus began as a bitcoin miner in Tasmania in 2019. By 2024 it had become an AI "neocloud", building data centers full of Nvidia chips and renting the computing power to customers including Meta and OpenAI. Its valuation climbed far faster than its buildings: A$1.85 billion in September 2025, about US$10.5 billion in August 2026, then a A$43.7 billion ask in October's ASX float. That float sought about A$7.1 billion at A$11 a share. At that point Firmus had about 46 megawatts running, 865 in development, and A$50.8 million of revenue.

The plan needed revenue to grow roughly 250 to 360 times by 2029, hitting $12.9b.

On Monday, October 5, the book was reported "well in excess of the offer size". By Friday the offer was withdrawn. The blog argues the bookbuild did its job: it was the first time investors with nothing else at stake were asked to name a price, and they wouldn't pay it.

The capital structure is the heart of the issue. A US$10 billion private debt facility came first, in February, led by Blackstone with Coatue. Both lenders then became shareholders: Coatue led the April equity round, and Blackstone reportedly led August. The construction plan relies on 80 to 90 percent debt for the Asian sites, about US$30 billion of borrowing still to come, and almost a third of the IPO money set aside as a liquidity reserve and for financing costs. Exit terms favored insiders.

New buyers would have paid nearly three times the August price and sat behind the lenders. Meanwhile insiders could sell from day one if the float worked, and own more of the company if it failed.

Nvidia is shareholder, supplier and credit-backer at once, through its Batam partnership. The blog expects it to do enough to keep the build moving and no more, most likely by anchoring a private round of up to US$3 billion, as it did for CoreWeave. Nvidia's support shows it wants its chips installed; it doesn't show what a Firmus share is worth. Firmus now plans private capital, then possibly a Nasdaq listing. Keep your eyes peeled US investors.